The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub, Georgia

First topic message reminder :

Welcome to the Virtual Rugby Pub - a place where you can come in for a sly beverage and discuss whatever's on your mind, or just eavesdrop on the regulars if you fancy a break from all the rugby chat. The pub has ventured to Georgia, because rugbydreamer wants the Scarlets to find a nice forward out there.

The only rule in this pub is one of mutual respect for everyone in it, oh and no defacing the pictures of birthday boy Hughie, Chris Budgen, Leo Cullen, Brian O'Driscoll, Paddy Wallace, Tomas O'Leary and a red faced Ronan O'Gara on the wall.




Old Pub:https://www.606v2.com/t26870p1000-the-dew-drop-inn-virtual-rugby-shebeen-queen-at-ellis-park-johannesburg#1115697

Ozzy,

Firstly, I would not accept Connacht or Dragons being entitled to take Aironis place. As I said we either let FIR do what they want with the place or else we just go league places only for qualification.

Secondly, apologies for use of word crying. However it is getting irritating the amount of English people who keep claiming we have done something wrong to create an unfair situation.

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:Glas is right Notch. Admitting that some of (or all of) the Pro12 clubs can effectively field different a team for league games without fear of relegation strengthens the stance that the French and English league representatives are taking over qualification for the HC.

Qualification based on final positions in each of the 3 leagues is what is proposed. Yup, maybe the English and French leagues should block relegation/promotion for (arguments sake) three years and then consider things.

That still doesn't make it any easier for those in the AP and T14 to qual

Hound, why should Ireland, Wales, Italy and Scotland all have to change their systems?

Why should it not be proposed that England revert to counties and France plays as regions also.

They each get 10 teams. 6 get HEC, 4 get Amlin.

I never claimed that mate, my post was more an attempt at poking fun (or a big stick) at the numerous posters on this forum who claim that the Pro12 always has it's big name players playing and is ubercompetitive and not used as a development league for teams whose main ambition is to win the Heino.

As I say, I do think the system of how teams 'qualify' for the Heino is wrong, but that is not the doing of any of the unions, that is down to the the ERC and the fact that due to the three leagues (AP, Pro12 and T14) being different in their own constitutions.

There is no simple answer which will make it right for all concerned, it will always be skewed towards one way or another, but that is life. I have no probs with it, I just think it means that the tournament is not as competitive at times as it could be.

Glas, if I'm in a race and the opposition wants to run with their shoelaces tied together I'm going to let them. The English and French whining over our system is strange. They should probably tend to their own business but no doubt we will see continued machinations and negotiations etc. over this well into the future.

I don't think it is possible for there to be a level-playing field in the Heineken Cup considering we have clubs playing against regions. To create a level playing field one side or other would have to change their system. Our system is good for us; understandably we won't want to compromise. We'll see how things develop over the next few years but the Heineken Cup remains beneficial for all but undoubtedly the English and French clubs will try to squeeze whatever they can out of us.

Personally I think calls for the Italians place to go to to a Welsh or Irish side are cynical and selfish. There would be massive whining if the boot were on the other foot. It may be soon!

red_stag wrote:

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:Glas is right Notch. Admitting that some of (or all of) the Pro12 clubs can effectively field different a team for league games without fear of relegation strengthens the stance that the French and English league representatives are taking over qualification for the HC.

Qualification based on final positions in each of the 3 leagues is what is proposed. Yup, maybe the English and French leagues should block relegation/promotion for (arguments sake) three years and then consider things.

That still doesn't make it any easier for those in the AP and T14 to qual

Hound, why should Ireland, Wales, Italy and Scotland all have to change their systems?

Why should it not be proposed that England revert to counties and France plays as regions also.

They each get 10 teams. 6 get HEC, 4 get Amlin.

Stag, is your suggestion here that England goes to 10 counties instead of 12 teams and the top 6 go into the Heino? If so that is virtually no different to the current set up and still means that teams have to qualify through performance in the national league.

Ozzy3213 wrote:I never claimed that mate, my post was more an attempt at poking fun (or a big stick) at the numerous posters on this forum who claim that the Pro12 always has it's big name players playing and is ubercompetitive and not used as a development league for teams whose main ambition is to win the Heino.

In that case, you shouldn't have posted it in a thread not frequented by any of those posters

The quality of Pro 12 and Premiership is probably on a par. In Pro 12, the talent is often not available whereas in the Premiership it's simply spread a lot thinner. I'd say we're probably better to watch though, because our basement teams like to throw it around but in terms of quality it's about the same.

ANYWAY, I don't want to get into that because it can be a long, boring argument and I've to go to bed; I'm going to Limerick Citay tomorrow

Thanks for letting me know where I can and can't post Notch, very kind of you.

I'm out.

But Ozzy we have to aswell.

Ireland only get 3 teams. The one who loses out does so based on the Pro 12. Same with Wales.

In that case set up 6 teams and all play in HEC.

Oh and I fully agree with your last post. Anyone who claims the Pro 12 isnt a development league is talking bollix. It gets serious when playoffs are on and it has some key games but most of it is about development.

Although (surprisingly) I do think that if this Aironi thing turns out to be a big loss we may be best off opting for qualification based on Pro 12 alone. I hope it doesnt come to it though,

Ozzy3213 wrote:Thanks for letting me know where I can and can't post Notch, very kind of you.

I'm out.

Ah ozzy you know better than anyone than a smiley is a good way of showing humour. Dont be like that.

Stag - where have I said you guys need to change? I've said you are able to take advantage of your league set up to benefit your HC chances. Fair play, you can do that.

In fact, I've suggested we and the French might effectively consider doing the same.

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:Glas is right Notch. Admitting that some of (or all of) the Pro12 clubs can effectively field different a team for league games without fear of relegation strengthens the stance that the French and English league representatives are taking over qualification for the HC.

Qualification based on final positions in each of the 3 leagues is what is proposed. Yup, maybe the English and French leagues should block relegation/promotion for (arguments sake) three years and then consider things.

That still doesn't make it any easier for those in the AP and T14 to qualify.

Sorry, it doesn't. The Pro 12 and Heineken Cup are completely seperate things. You seem to be misunderstanding; teams in the Pro 12 don't actually have a choice over what players they have available. Just because we pick our strongest team every week doesn't mean its not about developing players.

The calls on international players availability are not made at provincial level.

What the Pro 12 doesn;t tell us is how well a side is going to do in Europe. Edinburgh have had a nightmare season in the league with their Scottish internationals missing and would be in relegation territory if we had that. But their HC team is in a home quarter-final. Michael Bradley picks his strongest team each week; why should the performance of his second-string players be considered a barometer for how well his first team will perform in Europe?

Us voluntarily changing qualification rules for the HC is just ludicrous. They don't work for the system we have, they are much more successful in a club system without central contracting.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Thanks for letting me know where I can and can't post Notch, very kind of you.

I'm out.

I was joking you drama queen!

Stag

I do appreciate that qualification for Welsh/Irish teams is based on league placing, but not to the same degree as for AP/T14 teams, as you must finish at least in the top half of those leagues to qualify, whereas you can finish 11th out of 12 in the Pro12 and qualify if you are from one of those two nations, or finish bottom and qualify if you are Italian or Scottish.

As I said, I don't have a problem with how the unions distribute their places, but it cannot be claimed as a level playing field when it is not.

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:Stag - where have I said you guys need to change? I've said you are able to take advantage of your league set up to benefit your HC chances. Fair play, you can do that.

In fact, I've suggested we and the French might effectively consider doing the same.

Sorry Hound, Im talking to you for some things, Ozzy for some other points and others to the dozens of English posters that aren't reading this thread at all but who contributed on other ones

Oh no Ozzy I completely agree its not a level playing field at all.

I agree that it is very irritating when Pro 12 fans try to pretend that it is not a development league.

I don't have a problem with it not being a level playing field either Stag, life is not a level playing field. I have a problem with those who claim that it is a level playing in the interests of preserving their own place at the high end of the field. Just like a bit of honesty, which I generally get in here, and is the reason that I don't post on the rest of the forum much.

Here here well said pal. Considering we've been "disagreeing" for near on two pages now I think me, you, Hound and Notch actually are pretty much in agreement on the main issue.

I know what you mean about rest of the forum. I've got more involved with my blog in last few days instead. I've found forum a bit tedious as of late.

Is there a remote chance that the Irish regions could be better than the rest of us.
If it was all down to relegation then surely that would have also benefited the Scottish and Welsh sides.
When England dominated the HC everything was fine but now the Irish are showing the rest of us the way we suddenly need changes.

Notch, you're just worried that if things do change, Ulster won't qualify.






Night all - I'm up ridiculously early for an Easter Saturday as we have a 12:30 k.o. in some 2nd tier competition.

Yeah, it's pretty much impossible for there to be a level playing field with two totally different systems in place. Each has pros and cons.

We have an advantage in terms of developing players and preparing for the Heineken Cup, but it's much easier to market a league that doesn't have this 'development' tag and that TV money makes life a lot easier for you...

Level playing field would mean a similar league and every participant in the 6N gets the same quota.

In other news, Tiger's got a right monk on as his play goes from bad to worse at The Masters.

Ozzy3213 wrote:In other news, Tiger's got a right monk as his play goes from bad to worse at The Masters.

With who ?

I think the one major major difference about the Irish compared to the Welsh (cant really say so far about Scottish or Italians).

We put up with and go to watch the development league because our teams are winning. But what if next year no Irish team qualified for the knockout stages. And the year after Munster and Leinster both got knocked out in quarter finals with Ulster in Amlin. What if the season after again no Irish got further than the quarter finals. Would the attendances for Musnter, Ulster, Leinster Pro 12 games remain as high?

The Welsh, Scottish and Italians will come to the Pro 12 if it means more, if there is more at stake or if their teams are winning the HEC every year and they like watching their teams win.

Thats is niggling away in the back of my mind.

Now my own personal feeling is that:

1. The current system means that we are highly unlikely to see a situation where the Irish teams do that badly in Europe season after season.

2. But if attendances in Wales, Scotland and Italy dont pick up - will the league be sustsinable and could it collapse our entire Pro 12 system.

This Aironi thing has me worried. I had the Italians pegged as coming in with enthusiasm and long term visions. I dont want to give up what we have but it could be a short term loss for long term stability.

I may write an article. I think it will be better.

With himself. Kicking his clubs after playing a bad shot and a face like a smacked orse!

A senior police officer has joined criticism of Scotland Yard's record on racism, saying warnings have fallen on "deaf ears" for more than a decade.

Fair enough and should be sorted out but the bit I cant understand is how can you have a National Black Police Association,
I'm surprised it's even allowed.

red_stag wrote:I think the one major major difference about the Irish compared to the Welsh (cant really say so far about Scottish or Italians).

We put up with and go to watch the development league because our teams are winning. But what if next year no Irish team qualified for the knockout stages. And the year after Munster and Leinster both got knocked out in quarter finals with Ulster in Amlin. What if the season after again no Irish got further than the quarter finals. Would the attendances for Musnter, Ulster, Leinster Pro 12 games remain as high?

Speak for yourself, I go to every game I can regardless of form or anything else. That'll only change if I move to a different country. Question is are there enough people like me to keep the teams running? I'd suggest there are. It wasn't so long ago Ulster had the best crowds in the league despite not having qualified for the quarters since 99. Since then we've been outstripped by Leinster and Munster but I think we get enough people in because they are diehard fans to make it viable in a lean period.

What the Pro 12 doesn;t tell us is how well a side is going to do in Europe.

That's the problem though isn't it? After this year it can legitimately be asked what sodding benefit was there in the 6 nations of Ireland resting their players so much?

And the leagues within a league argument makes no sense. Either it's a competitive league or it isn't.

The self interest arguments are always un attractive (see the posts in my previous articles on this) but are now also wrong. Ireland's self interest now is clearly wedded with domestic rugby at a higher level than an inter pro competition. Yet, the competition will only be sustainable if the rest buy into it. Ireland's self interest therefore is best served by dropping the dogmatism and coming to the negotiating table.

In the past I've said this should be done as a pro active step as it was the right thing to do. The stage where it will have to be done on a reactive basis could be here sooner than we all thought.

Independently, it is also time that the Pro 12 insisted that coverage of games not including a nation's regions be showed in depth (at least significant highlights) by that nation's broadcaster. They must insist on a Sunday evening show on the Match of the Day format.

But if attendances in Wales, Scotland and Italy dont pick up - will the league be sustsinable and could it collapse our entire Pro 12

I thought you were of the mindset that you didn't have to attend games. You've said something similar to that before like as long as people buy merchandise or whatever, then that's sufficiently supporting their region.

Cymroglan wrote:A senior police officer has joined criticism of Scotland Yard's record on racism, saying warnings have fallen on "deaf ears" for more than a decade.

Fair enough and should be sorted out but the bit I cant understand is how can you have a National Black Police Association,
I'm surprised it's even allowed.

I'm with you cymro. If I set up the National White Police Association I would be a racist. Stinks of double standards.

I love string sections, they add do much depth to a song and give it that epic quality



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ri7-vnrJD3k&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Cymroglan wrote:A senior police officer has joined criticism of Scotland Yard's record on racism, saying warnings have fallen on "deaf ears" for more than a decade.

Fair enough and should be sorted out but the bit I cant understand is how can you have a National Black Police Association,
I'm surprised it's even allowed.

A few years ago someone at my work organised a Black Workers Christmas party. When I pointed out the fact that I would be sacked for organising something similar for us honkies it was not appreciated.

Thank feic for rugby. It keeps my faith in people, it really does. I've met far more good people in rugby than in any other element of my life.

Glas a du wrote:

What the Pro 12 doesn;t tell us is how well a side is going to do in Europe.

Independently, it is also time that the Pro 12 insisted that coverage of games not including a nation's regions be showed in depth (at least significant highlights) by that nation's broadcaster. They must insist on a Sunday evening show on the Match of the Day format.

Not a mention of Pro12 in the media and hardly any of the HEC here in Australia. Pretty poor.
You'd think they'd have arranged a feed for these next 4 games, Semis and Final (red button or whatever)
Instead they'll be showing The Regular Season College Lacrosse at the same time when the rugby is in full swing followed by that horrible ESPN Sports Center piece of rubbish.

We do get a replay of the Super League 'Match of the Round' about 12 hours later though. I'd rather watch some of the other SL games "live" too than the endless replays of some boring NRL games played on Friday night.

All the best this weekend Hound and Leinster fans. Not going to take sides in the Munster v Ulster game.

Really excited about this Crosskeys game today. Weather is probably going to go wet at kick off time though.

Good luck to the Welsh teams too. Fair to say Scarlets are our best hope there.

Risca Rev wrote:

But if attendances in Wales, Scotland and Italy dont pick up - will the league be sustsinable and could it collapse our entire Pro 12

I thought you were of the mindset that you didn't have to attend games. You've said something similar to that before like as long as people buy merchandise or whatever, then that's sufficiently supporting their region.

Rev, I remember saying that. However I think that was to do with people claiming that people weren't real fans if they didnt go to games.

However people should of course go to support their teams when possible. For example it has never been possible for me to be a Munster season ticket holder. I usually go to about 2-3 games a year maximum. This year I have been able to go to about 6-7 as I have a job and next year for first time ever I will be a season ticket holder. But although it wasnt possible for me to go to games regularly before that, I will still a fan.

Risca Rev wrote:All the best this weekend Hound and Leinster fans. Not going to take sides in the Munster v Ulster game.

Really excited about this Crosskeys game today. Weather is probably going to go wet at kick off time though.

I have to say I think that the British and Irish Cup has come on leaps and bounds.

I reckon Crosskeys v Cornish will be a top game.

right im getting itchy about this game now (best have a wash)

Isa at 17/2 for 1st try scorer seems like an extreamly attractive bet

Happy birthday hughie, hopefully a big win for Leinster later- will be watching from Limerick

Ulster Rugby tweeted a picture of Stephen Ferris running on grass without any strapping on his ankle yesterday. I'm feeling a lot more optimistic about him now.

England win the test

Is this the face of a man who'll miss the biggest match of the season through injury?

https://twitter.com/#!/Dicksondigital/status/188326788374609920/photo/1

Notch you on the road yet. ETA?

Also you know if your gonna head back on Monday or try make it back after the game?

Stag it looks like I've missed the boat (the bus?) on going back on Sunday. But this isn't so bad; it seems a trip to the Cliffs of Moher with the parents on Monday is going to happen. Then drive back from there.

I'm going to leave in about half an hour I think. Which would put the ETA at about 3pm. Which is later than I thought but we have not quite left as promptly as I thought... (hey, it's not me holding things up!)

No bother, I have to go to an Easter Monday morning breakfast (had to move heaven and earth to have it moved from Easter Sunday girlfriends familys tradition) so have to disappear early. Your more than welcome to hang around anyway.

Cool we can leave your bags in my apartment watch Leinster game in town and get bus out to the 'burbs in the evening.

I'm beginning to think 1F was never seriously injured. It is a great move by him and Ulster. Everyone has been focused on 1F and it has taken the pressure of the team.

That sounds great pal. I just have the one bag.

I'll clear off early on Monday, actually I will probably go to the Clarion and have breakfast with my parents.

Notch - excellent you can head into town with me in the morning around 9 ish.

for those confident fans, you can fly to london on saturday the 28th and returnn on the monday for 60 euro at the minute. granted i know that two results would need to go the right way, but at 60 quid its a steal

Thomond wrote:I'm beginning to think 1F was never seriously injured. It is a great move by him and Ulster. Everyone has been focused on 1F and it has taken the pressure of the team.

thats a very elaberate plan Thomond, but i can see you logic

hughie1986 wrote:for those confident fans, you can fly to london on saturday the 28th and returnn on the monday for 60 euro at the minute. granted i know that two results would need to go the right way, but at 60 quid its a steal

Its an investment. Though I suspect you will be going to France.