Where now for Ireland?

First topic message reminder :

Is the question posed by the year we've had. I'm trying to take a long view of our entire season rather than focusing on the tragicomedy of that last disgraceful game. 2011-2012 has been an unusually long and exceptionally disappointing season of test rugby for Ireland. It started with a lot of pessimism around the Ireland team (losing all 4 RWC warm-up tests consecutively) and ended in a similarly distressing fashion (Ireland's worst ever result and performance in the Southern Hemisphere). The statistics tell a similar story; in the seventeen matches we've played we have won just six, having drawn one and suffered ten defeats.

Wins over Australia, Italy (x2), Scotland, the USA and Russia are all we have to show for this year. For many the win we had over Australia was a triumphant validation of Kidney, who had come under heavy criticism following a string of incoherent and error-strewn performances in the lead up to that game. But it's worth noting it was Irelands only win against a side in the Top 8 of the world rankings in the last 12 months.

On the other hand we've had defeats to Scotland, England (x2), Wales (x2), France (x2) and New Zealand (x3). And one draw against France. It's distressing reading for any Irish fan. Putting the All Blacks series aside, since around 2005 we have always aimed to compete at the top end of the Six Nations table. But now the stats show that not only are we losing out to France, England and Wales- they've been fairly consistent and well practiced at beating us as well. We look comfortably a bottom three side in the NH rather than a top 3 team based on these results.

So my question is; how do we get back to the standard that is now demanded and expected of Ireland on the international stage i.e. being one of the top European sides? Can we even do that? Are we in for feast and famine over the next five years? What new ideas need to come into the set-up- could a clear out of senior players such as the one that led to Hayes, Horgan, Stringer, BOD and ROG getting capped in 2000 benefit us come the autumn? Do we need to make a break with the current coaching regime? Or is it just a case of fine tuning- a few new faces working under Kidney in the coaching set-up, a few new players coming in... gradual evolution of the sort Kidney has been trying so hard to make work.

What do you think 606v2? I am at a loss.

kunu wrote:

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:I think sin é means to say schmidt was not able to put 2 big performances together between winning the Hc and Rabo. But even that isn't true, Leinster went more or less the whole year unbeaten aside from ospreys matches and glasgow, there must have been 2 back to back big games at some point

I'm pointing out that Leinster have not been unbeaten in Europe this year and they have lost three finals in a row. As a team that is seemingly superior to everyone else in Ireland how come they have lost 3 Finals against teams that are meant to be inferior. Is it tactics (coach's fault) or is it the player's fault?

Last year the excuse was that the lads went on the urine after the HC win and that is why they lost the final (which is fair enough).

This year, there were no celebrations after the HCup win and it was at home in the RDS and Leinster lost to the Ospreys.

I'm sure there were big back-to-back games at some stage, but as a League its not the end of the world if you lose a game and you are running away with the league anyway. Its the finals that count.

If by Europe you mean the Heineken cup, you're wrong we were unbeaten. As for the 3 finals, who cares its the RABO! Fans really do not care at all looking back on loosing it. Ospreys and Munster had a lot more to gain in those matches.

I meant by a team that plays its rugby in Europe (should have said Northern Hemisphere).

I'm delighted for you that you don't mind losing the Rabo final 3 years in a row. Bet the players are not happy (and I doubt if they are blaming Joe)

No one is saying leinster are amazing international quality or any of that rubbish. People admire the way they play like a team with an a plan, as they are coached properly

Nope, he meant overseas signings Sin. I doubt he is going to know the populations for each province, I don't even know that. And what relevance does that question have to anything? I have already admitted that Leinster have not played any sides as good as the top 3, nor have Wales, or any of the NH teams. Hence why they are the top teams and we are not.

Mate, it is sad that you would rather undermine Leinster's achievements, and the abilities of Ulster too, in order to support Kidney and his failings with Ireland. Very sad actually. If you were a true Ireland supporter you would be behind all 4 provinces 100%.

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:I think sin é means to say schmidt was not able to put 2 big performances together between winning the Hc and Rabo. But even that isn't true, Leinster went more or less the whole year unbeaten aside from ospreys matches and glasgow, there must have been 2 back to back big games at some point

I'm pointing out that Leinster have not been unbeaten in Europe this year and they have lost three finals in a row. As a team that is seemingly superior to everyone else in Ireland how come they have lost 3 Finals against teams that are meant to be inferior. Is it tactics (coach's fault) or is it the player's fault?

Last year the excuse was that the lads went on the urine after the HC win and that is why they lost the final (which is fair enough).

This year, there were no celebrations after the HCup win and it was at home in the RDS and Leinster lost to the Ospreys.

I'm sure there were big back-to-back games at some stage, but as a League its not the end of the world if you lose a game and you are running away with the league anyway. Its the finals that count.

If by Europe you mean the Heineken cup, you're wrong we were unbeaten. As for the 3 finals, who cares its the RABO! Fans really do not care at all looking back on loosing it. Ospreys and Munster had a lot more to gain in those matches.

I meant by a team that plays its rugby in Europe (should have said Northern Hemisphere).

I'm delighted for you that you don't mind losing the Rabo final 3 years in a row. Bet the players are not happy (and I doubt if they are blaming Joe)

Id say theyre looking back at an unbeaten HC run- equalling a record, and winning back to back HC's- equalling another record, and winning 3 HC's in 4 years - setting a record. I somehow doubt losing the rabo during that time period is givin them nighmares!

rodders wrote:There were a couple of examples even on Saturday when we made line breaks and there was no support at all. Most notably Ryan, who made a brilliant run and with only 1 man to beat only had Touhy struggling to get in support.

We are very poor at putting those chances away and at Leinster they would have at least 3 players in support.

Erm ...


And as the Leinster players are so good at supporting a player making line-breaks (as we see time after time when they play in blue) where were they all when Ryan made his break?

[quote="KiaRose"]

rodders wrote:

And as the Leinster players are so good at supporting a player making line-breaks (as we see time after time when they play in blue) where were they all when Ryan made his break?

Coached into forgetting how they play

kunu wrote:No one is saying leinster are amazing international quality or any of that rubbish. People admire the way they play like a team with an a plan, as they are coached properly

Hang on a second here - much of the stuff we hear is that Leinster are a better team than Ireland and that if you slot in a few players like Bowe and have Schmidt as coach, Ireland too will be winning all around them.

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:No one is saying leinster are amazing international quality or any of that rubbish. People admire the way they play like a team with an a plan, as they are coached properly

Hang on a second here - much of the stuff we hear is that Leinster are a better team than Ireland and that if you slot in a few players like Bowe and have Schmidt as coach, Ireland too will be winning all around them.

If you follow the words of people like Stuart Barnes and co,then yeah you might think that. Its a load of nonsense though, maybe i should have started my post with "Im not saying leinster are,,,, rather than "No one is saying leinster are,,,"

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Nope, he meant overseas signings Sin. I doubt he is going to know the populations for each province, I don't even know that. And what relevance does that question have to anything? I have already admitted that Leinster have not played any sides as good as the top 3, nor have Wales, or any of the NH teams. Hence why they are the top teams and we are not.

Mate, it is sad that you would rather undermine Leinster's achievements, and the abilities of Ulster too, in order to support Kidney and his failings with Ireland. Very sad actually. If you were a true Ireland supporter you would be behind all 4 provinces 100%.

Rory, just because you don't know doesn't mean others won't know. Most people would know that approx. half the population of Ireland live in Leinster (there has been a recent census so a fair bit of coverage about it recently).

Nothing got to do with Leinster's achievements or Ulster's abilities either - its just factual that they are not as good as a top 4 country. I couldn't give a rats arse about Leinster or Ulster's achievements tbh as I'm sure you don't care about Munster's achievements and I don't expect you to.

kunu wrote:

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:No one is saying leinster are amazing international quality or any of that rubbish. People admire the way they play like a team with an a plan, as they are coached properly

Hang on a second here - much of the stuff we hear is that Leinster are a better team than Ireland and that if you slot in a few players like Bowe and have Schmidt as coach, Ireland too will be winning all around them.

If you follow the words of people like Stuart Barnes and co,then yeah you might think that. Its a load of nonsense though, maybe i should have started my post with "Im not saying leinster are,,,, rather than "No one is saying leinster are,,,"

I believe Paul Wallace was saying on Sky yesterday that there were a few players who were playing for Ireland who would not make the Leinster team.

Well nacewa over earls, other than that, no one. Paul wallace, and just about everyone on sky are complete eejits... never imparting any valuable info, mostly because they themselves are clueless. Im off to hit the hey anyway, good talk.

kunu wrote:Well nacewa over earls, other than that, no one. Paul wallace, and just about everyone on sky are complete eejits... never imparting any valuable info, mostly because they themselves are clueless. Im off to hit the hey anyway, good talk.

McFadden isn't first choice for Leinster. I doubt if Tuohy would make the Leinster team. Ryan probably would - but I can see Leinster going for Brad Thorn instead as Leinster would hardly drop their captain. Would Peter O'Mahony make the Leinster team? Considering all the abuse Conor Murray gets, he probably would make it either.

Sin é wrote:

Rory, just because you don't know doesn't mean others won't know. Most people would know that approx. half the population of Ireland live in Leinster (there has been a recent census so a fair bit of coverage about it recently).

Nothing got to do with Leinster's achievements or Ulster's abilities either - its just factual that they are not as good as a top 4 country. I couldn't give a rats arse about Leinster or Ulster's achievements tbh as I'm sure you don't care about Munster's achievements and I don't expect you to.

Actually I care a lot about Munster/Leinster/Connacht and their achievements. I think that is a rather sad attitude.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Rory, just because you don't know doesn't mean others won't know. Most people would know that approx. half the population of Ireland live in Leinster (there has been a recent census so a fair bit of coverage about it recently).

Nothing got to do with Leinster's achievements or Ulster's abilities either - its just factual that they are not as good as a top 4 country. I couldn't give a rats arse about Leinster or Ulster's achievements tbh as I'm sure you don't care about Munster's achievements and I don't expect you to.

Actually I care a lot about Munster/Leinster/Connacht and their achievements. I think that is a rather sad attitude.

Its better than wishing them ill which is what you have implied I do. It doesn't really matter to me when Ulster & Leinster do well - I'm not jealous of their success. Simple.

rugbydreamer wrote:It's a bit like "oh quick let's give it to POC and let him do what he does for Munster" then "no wait let the Leinster lads give it a go" and then "oh quick, there's best and Ferris, let them do what they do for Ulster". For me anyway there's absolutely no cohesion. I don't know whether that's down to the management not setting out a clear enough plan (which would seem mightily strange to me) or the players just aren't able/won't adapt to it. I honestly don't know. I could also be talking a pile of dung

I think that your first sentence is pretty much how Kidney draws up his gameplans. For all we go over this in forensic detail, we just don't look like we know what we're doing out there most of the time.

There has been a huge amount of criticism of Declan Kidney here. A thought occurred to me though. When he was appointed, he chose his own coaches - Alan Gaffney; Les Kiss; Gert Smal. Since then Gaffney has gone. Greg Feek has come in as scrum coach. All of these arrived with a reputation (Smal had coached the Springboks forwards when they won the 2007 RWC).

One has got to ask, why they are staying? Surely if Kidney is so bad, their reputation will suffer as well? If they have no faith in DK, why do they stay? Or to put it another way, as they are staying, must we infer that they believe DK is the right man for the job?

If the answer to that last question is "Yes", then we have to look beyond the coaching team for the reason Ireland is misfiring - unless we believe that NONE of them is worth their position ...

We need a Kidney/O'Sullivan hybrid coach. O'sullivan was always a great man for the structures, and a great backs coach, but his personality and ability to give balls to the wall speeches has always been lacking. Kidney does not know how to bring structure to our games, but can bring a happy player camp. In those tight games/when we played NH opposition, an EOS type structure could have gotten us over the finish line.. And then we have the kidney passion for the big games. EOS gets you through a season, Dec gets you through a final. Add a sprinkling of a coach who trusts in youth & doesn't care about irish parochial politics and we will be in with a shot.

And just a line about irish provincialism. My father before he died was chairman of garrymore gaa (a average level mayo club with an unreal team in the 70s which da also played for) and he always said (with a twinkle in his eye), 'I don't hate any race, country, religion, but I can't stand those Flip from davitts (a local gaa rival)... And not just the team, Davitts and the surrounding parish, were all a bit suspect. And this parochialism, its the heart of the political and media problems in irish rugby. We see it here with sin e and a handful of the leinster lads. And its a poison. Its a poison to success. Because that davitts lad is my brother, as is the munster and leinster and ulster lads. They are our brothers and the enemy is the other side of that pitch. And we need to be as united together off the pitch as we expect our players to be on it. I support connacht above all, but love all the other provinces as well. For any interprovincial not including connacht I support the team currently losing, and I support the players who will wear the national green most of all. In connacht we have had no success so maybe its easier for us. But we need to be together; we can disagree, argue on the merits, but not because of petty parochialism. Let's start now lads.

KiaRose wrote:There has been a huge amount of criticism of Declan Kidney here. A thought occurred to me though. When he was appointed, he chose his own coaches - Alan Gaffney; Les Kiss; Gert Smal. Since then Gaffney has gone. Greg Feek has come in as scrum coach. All of these arrived with a reputation (Smal had coached the Springboks forwards when they won the 2007 RWC).

One has got to ask, why they are staying? Surely if Kidney is so bad, their reputation will suffer as well? If they have no faith in DK, why do they stay? Or to put it another way, as they are staying, must we infer that they believe DK is the right man for the job?

If the answer to that last question is "Yes", then we have to look beyond the coaching team for the reason Ireland is misfiring - unless we believe that NONE of them is worth their position ...

Those coaches are all being paid very well with coaching jobs at a tier 1 nation - its doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why they arent leaving, the idea that them staying somehow validates Kidney as a coach is nonsense.

When Andy Robinson was England coach did his subordinates such as Ford and Wells leave because the results weren't coming? No......when Brian Ashton was coach did they leave? No.....When Gareth Jenkins was Wales coach did his subordinates leave - nope.

You are suggesting that coaches in an under performing team will up stick and leave when in actual fact the opposite is true, they will cling to their positions for dear life.

I think you guys may have gone up one place in the World Rankings this weekend.

(rather meaningless I know, but silver linings and all that)

Is there a top 8 coach in the world who, after a 60-0 defeat would not come out and say

"this was embarassing, unacceptable and we will have to take a serious look at this"

If you dont admit there was serious errors and at least hint at there being repercussions, then you have to be aware that it might in fact be you who will face the repercussions.

PLEASE, somebody, in the media or the IRFU, stand up and say it!

THIS WAS UNACCEPTABLE

Well, we’ve hit rock bottom.

I mean at least things can’t get any worse.

Next time someone says to me “ah I used to support ireland in the 90’s when they were rubbish”, they’re getting a dead arm.

Notch wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:It's a bit like "oh quick let's give it to POC and let him do what he does for Munster" then "no wait let the Leinster lads give it a go" and then "oh quick, there's best and Ferris, let them do what they do for Ulster". For me anyway there's absolutely no cohesion. I don't know whether that's down to the management not setting out a clear enough plan (which would seem mightily strange to me) or the players just aren't able/won't adapt to it. I honestly don't know. I could also be talking a pile of dung

I think that your first sentence is pretty much how Kidney draws up his gameplans. For all we go over this in forensic detail, we just don't look like we know what we're doing out there most of the time.

Exactly lads, one team cannot play three brands of rugby, it's as simple as that. The buck stops with the IRFU for allowing this, not completely with Kidney although he has indeed failed. However, I have asked myself whether he's failed where others would have succeeded and I don't think he's guilty of that. He's given ingredients that simply don't seem to go together and we're falling short. That 60-0 defeat was the worst car crash of a game I've ever seen and the fact that it was Ireland on the receiving end had me almost imploding. I'd have felt bad for England, Wales or Scotland being on the end of that kind of indignity.
I don't think it's much of a knee-jerk to ask for a new Irish coaching setup and I think it needs to happen now to give us a fighting chance in the next few years. A new spark to ignite a passion for the green shirt or a new outlook on how to get the best out of our players.

To be honest I am at a loss.

I still can't fathom how he really thought he could do a post match interview without using stern words. Is he feicin santa or what?
Any manager in any profession is expected to ask for the best, and is expected to be annoyed when he gets less than best. He's expected get rid of people who don't do their best.

And if he doesnt, the chairman is meant to get rid of him!

We cannot allow the same old 'ah well' kind of response from him as always. This wasnt just another loss, this was a disgrace.

I dont really keep up with papers etc, but is there even any sign of the media tightening the screws???

Is there any sign of Thornely and Farrelly putting Kidney under more pressure? Doubtful, the old “the provinces are the problem” excuses will be trotted out as the media tow the party line. Ah sure if it keeps them close to the squad and keeps Thornelys “expected teams” being remarkably clairvoyant then that’s all that matters.

For the record, in the World Cup, NZ beat Tonga by 31 and Canada by 64. Canada scored 15 points against them...

Ah sure Kidney comes out with the same mumbled garbage whether we've won, lost or drawn.

I didn't actually see his post match interview. But I imagine it went something like this...

Ah you know we lost by 60 points and people will say we picked the wrong team, but you know if we had of picked a different team we could have lost by even more so you this is the way things work in international rugby you know. All credit to the all blacks you know they played well but we probably let them play well and you know if we had won this game we wouldn't be losing the run of ourselves but we've lost it and we won't be losing the run of ourselves now either.

Mickado wrote:
I didn't actually see his post match interview. But I imagine it went something like this...

Ah you know we lost by 60 points and people will say we picked the wrong team, but you know if we had of picked a different team we could have lost by even more so you this is the way things work in international rugby you know. All credit to the all blacks you know they played well but we probably let them play well and you know if we had won this game we wouldn't be losing the run of ourselves but we've lost it and we won't be losing the run of ourselves now either.

I think that's actually what he said Mick. Followed by "Tomatoes are fruit and fruit salads don't taste nice with salad cream"

Maybe something along the lines of

"well you know, the all blacks are the all blacks, they are what they are, and we are what we are. On this occassion, when they attacked we didnt defend the best, when they defended we didnt attck the best. Thats the swings and roundabouts you get with rugby, its fine margins and when you lose the fine margins for 80 minutes, its suddenly 60 points."

Instead he should have said

"This was an unaccecptable performance. The players and staff need to be held accountable for it. We will be taking a seriously look at this performance over next few weeks, and serious questions will be asked"

He wasnt even close to seeming annoyed. (from the words, I didnt see the interview)

Morning all,

I said after the RWC that the summer series was what I would judge Kidneys coaching team on as opposed to the 6 Nations. I wanted to see a few things.

1 - A change in personnel in the second row and centre where I felt that Darcy, Wallace and O'Callaghan were not performing well enough.

2 - A game plan which we could rely upon for consistent performances.

3 - A result. At least one win over NZ even if it in the last test after two defeats.

We didn't get these. We got what we usually got. A one off top performance sandwiched by several shoite performances. When the going got tough he called upon Paddy Wallace instead of keeping faith with the new centres we saw earlier in the tour. And we missed our chance of a win.

Kidney and his coaching team did not achieve what I expected and couple with a RWC where they did not make the Semi Finals and a 6 Nations where they only beat Italy and Scotland, they must now step aside.

It won't fix everything though and we are in a worse place in 2012 than we were in 2008.

I don't think we should get too hung up on the 3rd test. We are not 60 points worse than the ABs, that was a particularly bad day at the office and isn't a reason to push panic buttons.

However over the 3 tests we were markedly inferior, physically, mentally, tactically and technically and that needs to be addressed.

The first test wasn't actually too bad. Our forwards layed a decent platform up until Loughney came on for Fitzpatrick and there were quite a few good individual performances. Behind the scrum the combination of slow service from Murray, poor kicking from hand and unforced handling errors allowed the ABs to hit us on the counter and their clinicalness in attack coupled by some poor defending out wide led to us taking a bit of a hammering on the scoreboard. Disappointing but not a disaster.

In the second test we seemed to learn our lessons; we had a better organised back line with D'arcy and Trimble, Mike Ross bolstered the scrum, Murray's service was quicker and our tactical kicking was spot on. The ABs perhaps underestimated us after the first test and the weather at Eden park was a bit of a leveller for us. Our line speed in defence was superb, we won the collisions and were a hairs breath away from what would have been a well deserved and historic victory.

Test 3 was a a disaster no doubt about it. An embarressment. The ABs were inspired, hungry and ruthless whereas we were complacent, lethargic and sloppy. The selection was wrong - bringing in Earls for Trimble, retaining McFadden against Gear and worst of all flying in Paddy Wallace meant we lost the cohesion in the backline we had at Eden park and we were much weaker physically. The linespeed and aggression was gone in defence. For the first time in the series our pack was dominated and that left the physical frailties in our backline cruelly exposed.

What followed was a horror show for us but we shouldn't allow the 3rd test to be the lasting memory of this tour, where in spite of missing numerous key players like POC, Bowe, Ferris, Court, Fitzgerald as well as Heaslip, Earls and Ross for the 1st, 2nd and 3rd tests respectively we produced some very good performances for 40 min in the first test and 75min in the second.

Tactically our coaching team was exposed again and that needs to be addressed imediately, individually quite a few of the squad need to improve their physical and technical abilites to compete at this level, which will take a few seasons, but we can take enough positives from this tour to take into next season.

First things first, the players need a rest...... then a brutal pre season to start getting them up to scratch physically and mentally.

A good start to the provincial season, along with a good AI series and things will seem a lot more positive heading into the 6N, where with England and France at home we need to produce a serious assault on the title for the first time in 3 seasons. We also need to etch our way up the rankings and a new coaching team to put square pegs in square holes and a decent gameplan which suits the available players.

Clearly we are some way of the ABs level but at European level we aren't yet too far behind, but we need to start moving in the right direction again.

From an Englishman I would advise Ireland not to panic. You have some top quality players and will remain respected opposition. I think the players are knackered and need some rest. If the problems persist in the Autumn then I will accept there is an issue, but until then it is time to re-charge the batteries and get everyone fit and then get some wins and confidence back in the AIs.

Of course players like BOD are not easily replaced, but I think he has 1 season left in him so lets see how it all develops. Plus you just played the ABs who are head and shoulders above any other side. Look at the quality of your opposition 10s versus Morne Steyn. All our teams would have been smashed by the ABs.

rodders wrote:I don't think we should get too hung up on the 3rd test. We are not 60 points worse than the ABs, that was a particularly bad day at the office and isn't a reason to push panic buttons.

You know I like you rodders! But you belong in the ostrich farm on the wrong side of a fence with this opinion!

Is it simply the coahces.

We see year in year out the Provinces pretty much compete/dominate the European stage whislt the Regions struggle.

Yet the Irish players (not all ) seem not to transfer that level to the International stage whilst some (not all) of the Welsh players have lifted their game - current tour aside.

Bedford,

Although the coaching team are extremely poor and need to be replaced I dont think that will be enough.

We need to stop assuming that winning in Europe means winning internationally.

As Ospreys have learned winning in the Celtic League does not necessarily mean winning in Europe.

So who do all you Irish fans want to see in charge of the national side ?

Lord Dowlais,

Right now if Kidney resigned I think that Mike Ruddock would be the favourite.

I'd be happy enough to give him a chance.

Conor O'Shea won't leave Quins nor will Michael Bradley with Edinburgh I would think.

Yeah, but who ever comes in will have their work cut out for them. Because the way I see it, when Kidney goes, a couple of senior players will go as well, and lets be honest all the project players in the world will not replace the likes of O'Driscoll and O'Connall and as of late some of the Irish fans on here have been far from gracious to a man who won you your first grand slam in half a century, who ever comes in, I hope he doesn't read this forum.

Mickado wrote:Is there any sign of Thornely and Farrelly putting Kidney under more pressure? Doubtful, the old “the provinces are the problem” excuses will be trotted out as the media tow the party line. Ah sure if it keeps them close to the squad and keeps Thornelys “expected teams” being remarkably clairvoyant then that’s all that matters.

The provinces are the problem because they exasperate and hilight the shortcomings of the national coaches and selectors.

Joe Schmidt is Kidney's worst nightmare because he has Irish players playing a style of rugby that he can't even dream off.

Kidney supporters and Ireland/HEC haters can twist things whichever way they want and play the NIQ card but the bottom line is the likes of Kearney, Sexton, D'arcy, O'Brien etc. do not play the same way for Ireland as they do for Leinster. Same with Trimble.

The step up in intensity and quality to international level is undeniable but that does not explain the lack of support play, poor tactical kicking, handling errors and poor tactical descision making we get with Ireland.

That is a direct result of the selection of players who don't compliment each other and the ineffective style of rugby that the team are being coached to play.

Kidney is not to blame for missed tackles, individual errors or lack of discipline but he is to blame for not putting a side out with the attacking and defensive systems in place to perform and for repeatedly making poor tactical selection descisions.

Rodders, you are being FAR too positive about the second test. Watch it back, I dare you. ABs were NOTHING LIKE THEMSELVES, and we were gifted a chance and we threw it away. Don't believe me? Watch it again. Error ridden is being kind. And playing against 14 men in the last ten minutes and conceding the game.

It should count as a massive negative for Kidney and the team that we didn't wrap that one up.

Also, you complained about third test selection. Thats not enough. The other players were actually just shocking too. O'Driscoll played his worst game I can remember. Ryan, after a charging run, basically slowed to a standstill and popped the worst pass I've ever seen to his support runner whilst not even under pressure.

I'm getting too worked up here, I need a breather...

red_stag wrote:Lord Dowlais,

Right now if Kidney resigned I think that Mike Ruddock would be the favourite.

I'd be happy enough to give him a chance.

Conor O'Shea won't leave Quins nor will Michael Bradley with Edinburgh I would think.

If they were granted given a set time to turn things around and given complete control during all of that time, then I doubt any of those people would be staying at club level.

clivemcl wrote:Rodders, you are being FAR too positive about the second test. Watch it back, I dare you. ABs were NOTHING LIKE THEMSELVES, and we were gifted a chance and we threw it away. Don't believe me? Watch it again. Error ridden is being kind. And playing against 14 men in the last ten minutes and conceding the game.

I watched it twice Clive and it was a fantastic performance. The ABs started like a house on fire but we weathered the storm, met fire with fire and took a 10 nil lead. From then on it was a full on test and for sustained periods we matched and even shaded the ABs physically at times. We were smart, accurate and the intensity, commitment and physicality was as good as anything I've ever seen from an Irish side, in any sport, ever, for 74 minutes.

There were penty of negatives of course but overall that was a fabulous performance imo and without wanting to be bullish, I believe we'd have beaten any other side in the World with that effort.

Can we try some positivity for what a new coach would have to work with? I doubt if anyone reading a thread like this would see it as anything other than a lost cause. And I don't think it is a lost cause.

A new coach starting into a 4 year plan will have;
- a relatively young loosehead in Healy with a solid reputation/experience
- a leader in Best at hooker with a dynamic backup in Cronin who seems to be growing into a very good player
- a fleet of backrow options all relatively young (Ferris, POM, Heaslip, SOB)
- what else?

clivemcl wrote:
Also, you complained about third test selection. Thats not enough. The other players were actually just shocking too. O'Driscoll played his worst game I can remember. Ryan, after a charging run, basically slowed to a standstill and popped the worst pass I've ever seen to his support runner whilst not even under pressure.

Ryan made a great break. He slowed down because there were no support runners anywhere near him. Touhy did well to keep up but the real question is why there weren't 2 or 3 players, specifically the outside backs and backrowers, supporting either side of him.

That should have been a 7 pointer and hilights the lack of a natural openside flanker, but also what happens when you play centres on the wing. They don't have the same instinct to track the play.

O'Driscolls performance is a bit of a red herring. It is pretty hard to influence the game when your pack is getting beasted and your inside centre partner is so far off the pace. Overall I thought BOD had a very good tour. Too many of the other backs though weren't good enough and that includes Rob Kearney who left his form in Europe.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Can we try some positivity for what a new coach would have to work with? I doubt if anyone reading a thread like this would see it as anything other than a lost cause. And I don't think it is a lost cause.

A new coach starting into a 4 year plan will have;
- a relatively young loosehead in Healy with a solid reputation/experience
- a leader in Best at hooker with a dynamic backup in Cronin who seems to be growing into a very good player
- a fleet of backrow options all relatively young (Ferris, POM, Heaslip, SOB)
- what else?

Irish provinces in the HC final five times in the past five years (one all irish final).

rodders wrote:

clivemcl wrote:
Also, you complained about third test selection. Thats not enough. The other players were actually just shocking too. O'Driscoll played his worst game I can remember. Ryan, after a charging run, basically slowed to a standstill and popped the worst pass I've ever seen to his support runner whilst not even under pressure.

Ryan made a great break. He slowed down because there were no support runners anywhere near him. Touhy did well to keep up but the real question is why there weren't 2 or 3 players, specifically the outside backs and backrowers, supporting either side of him.

That should have been a 7 pointer and hilights the lack of a natural openside flanker, but also what happens when you play centres on the wing. They don't have the same instinct to track the play.

No, i think it just highlights that Ryan gave a poor pass.

I'm not lambasting Ryan, I'm saying that most players seemed to just have brainfarts for 80 minutes. Is it panic? Is it nerves? Did they kind of give up?

Either way, the question is, is the mental solidity in a team the responsibility of the coach?

rugbydreamer wrote:

Physicality isn't always about size Rory, it's about commitment and aggression. To be successful at international level consistently you have to provide this in bucket loads, far more that at provincial/club/regional level. The margins are that much smaller and the effort needed that much more.

The regions in Wales are pretty poorly run, with average coaching. It isn't a surprise that the players don't play as well there. The set up for Team Wales is ultra professional and designed as such to bring the best out of the players. I would say this is another area Team Ireland need to look at.

Passion will have a great deal to do with it, it links back in with commitment and aggression. Although it's a serious problem if Irish players don't feel as passionate for Ireland as they do for their province. I don't know how you'd go about fixing that.

Ditto for the Irish international setup.

wolfball wrote:We need a Kidney/O'Sullivan hybrid coach. O'sullivan was always a great man for the structures, and a great backs coach, but his personality and ability to give balls to the wall speeches has always been lacking.

Kidney does not know how to bring structure to our games, but can bring a happy player camp. In those tight games/when we played NH opposition, an EOS type structure could have gotten us over the finish line.. And then we have the kidney passion for the big games. EOS gets you through a season, Dec gets you through a final. Add a sprinkling of a coach who trusts in youth & doesn't care about irish parochial politics and we will be in with a shot.

EOS couldn't get the team over the line (when they were in their prime). How many triple crowns was it? And Ireland lost to NZ 7-45 in Lansdowne in 2005 for the record.

And just a line about irish provincialism. My father before he died was chairman of garrymore gaa (a average level mayo club with an unreal team in the 70s which da also played for) and he always said (with a twinkle in his eye), 'I don't hate any race, country, religion, but I can't stand those Flip from davitts (a local gaa rival)... And not just the team, Davitts and the surrounding parish, were all a bit suspect. And this parochialism, its the heart of the political and media problems in irish rugby. We see it here with sin e and a handful of the leinster lads. And its a poison. Its a poison to success. Because that davitts lad is my brother, as is the munster and leinster and ulster lads. They are our brothers and the enemy is the other side of that pitch. And we need to be as united together off the pitch as we expect our players to be on it. I support connacht above all, but love all the other provinces as well. For any interprovincial not including connacht I support the team currently losing, and I support the players who will wear the national green most of all. In connacht we have had no success so maybe its easier for us. But we need to be together; we can disagree, argue on the merits, but not because of petty parochialism. Let's start now lads.

Well, at least I haven't referred to any fellow supporters from other provinces as a poison to the sport. Who the feck do you think you are?

I'd also like to know what have I done to affect the team performance (and no, I've never booed Johnny Sexton or any Leinster player for the record).

Jesus, have things got so bad that we need to blame SinE for how poor we are.

That’s clutching at straws.

Our players are not DIRE, but they do play DIRE. There’s a fairly obvious reason why, and it’s nothing to do with anyone on 606. Fans reverting to provincial loyalties and bickering on an internet forum is just a symptom of a problem.

clivemcl wrote:

rodders wrote:

clivemcl wrote:
Also, you complained about third test selection. Thats not enough. The other players were actually just shocking too. O'Driscoll played his worst game I can remember. Ryan, after a charging run, basically slowed to a standstill and popped the worst pass I've ever seen to his support runner whilst not even under pressure.

Ryan made a great break. He slowed down because there were no support runners anywhere near him. Touhy did well to keep up but the real question is why there weren't 2 or 3 players, specifically the outside backs and backrowers, supporting either side of him.

That should have been a 7 pointer and hilights the lack of a natural openside flanker, but also what happens when you play centres on the wing. They don't have the same instinct to track the play.

No, i think it just highlights that Ryan gave a poor pass.

Well Ryan can't give a good pass if he has no one to pass to Clive. If you think Ryan's pass was the issue then you are missing the point. Ryan had very little option. He wasn't going to beat Dagg, he was isolated so would likely have got turned over if he takes the tackle, so he checked his run and floated a reasonable pass to the only player in sight which was Touhy who should have held it.

I say fair play to Ryan and Touhy for trying but where the flip is everyone else? When your only line break is by your second row and the only support player is his second row partner then that says a lot about the organisation, attacking systems and also attitude of the side.