Where now for Ireland?

First topic message reminder :

Is the question posed by the year we've had. I'm trying to take a long view of our entire season rather than focusing on the tragicomedy of that last disgraceful game. 2011-2012 has been an unusually long and exceptionally disappointing season of test rugby for Ireland. It started with a lot of pessimism around the Ireland team (losing all 4 RWC warm-up tests consecutively) and ended in a similarly distressing fashion (Ireland's worst ever result and performance in the Southern Hemisphere). The statistics tell a similar story; in the seventeen matches we've played we have won just six, having drawn one and suffered ten defeats.

Wins over Australia, Italy (x2), Scotland, the USA and Russia are all we have to show for this year. For many the win we had over Australia was a triumphant validation of Kidney, who had come under heavy criticism following a string of incoherent and error-strewn performances in the lead up to that game. But it's worth noting it was Irelands only win against a side in the Top 8 of the world rankings in the last 12 months.

On the other hand we've had defeats to Scotland, England (x2), Wales (x2), France (x2) and New Zealand (x3). And one draw against France. It's distressing reading for any Irish fan. Putting the All Blacks series aside, since around 2005 we have always aimed to compete at the top end of the Six Nations table. But now the stats show that not only are we losing out to France, England and Wales- they've been fairly consistent and well practiced at beating us as well. We look comfortably a bottom three side in the NH rather than a top 3 team based on these results.

So my question is; how do we get back to the standard that is now demanded and expected of Ireland on the international stage i.e. being one of the top European sides? Can we even do that? Are we in for feast and famine over the next five years? What new ideas need to come into the set-up- could a clear out of senior players such as the one that led to Hayes, Horgan, Stringer, BOD and ROG getting capped in 2000 benefit us come the autumn? Do we need to make a break with the current coaching regime? Or is it just a case of fine tuning- a few new faces working under Kidney in the coaching set-up, a few new players coming in... gradual evolution of the sort Kidney has been trying so hard to make work.

What do you think 606v2? I am at a loss.

KiaRose wrote:There has been a huge amount of criticism of Declan Kidney here. A thought occurred to me though. When he was appointed, he chose his own coaches - Alan Gaffney; Les Kiss; Gert Smal. Since then Gaffney has gone. Greg Feek has come in as scrum coach. All of these arrived with a reputation (Smal had coached the Springboks forwards when they won the 2007 RWC).

One has got to ask, why they are staying? Surely if Kidney is so bad, their reputation will suffer as well? If they have no faith in DK, why do they stay? Or to put it another way, as they are staying, must we infer that they believe DK is the right man for the job?

If the answer to that last question is "Yes", then we have to look beyond the coaching team for the reason Ireland is misfiring - unless we believe that NONE of them is worth their position ...

Excellent point. Gert Smal was in the running for the SA job when it came up and he choose to stay here. I'd be pretty sure that Australia might have been looking at Les Kiss as well after Ireland's win in the rugby world cup.

Also interesting is that Jim Williams & Tony McGahan (both Kidney proteges) were both selected by Robbie Deans/Australia for their coaching staff.

Just having a look at some stats here lads. Doesn't make for good reading (obviously) but i notice that we had more possession and territory than NZ.

http://www.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/match/153844.html

Sin é wrote:

KiaRose wrote:There has been a huge amount of criticism of Declan Kidney here. A thought occurred to me though. When he was appointed, he chose his own coaches - Alan Gaffney; Les Kiss; Gert Smal. Since then Gaffney has gone. Greg Feek has come in as scrum coach. All of these arrived with a reputation (Smal had coached the Springboks forwards when they won the 2007 RWC).

One has got to ask, why they are staying? Surely if Kidney is so bad, their reputation will suffer as well? If they have no faith in DK, why do they stay? Or to put it another way, as they are staying, must we infer that they believe DK is the right man for the job?

If the answer to that last question is "Yes", then we have to look beyond the coaching team for the reason Ireland is misfiring - unless we believe that NONE of them is worth their position ...

Excellent point. Gert Smal was in the running for the SA job when it came up and he choose to stay here. I'd be pretty sure that Australia might have been looking at Les Kiss as well after Ireland's win in the rugby world cup.

Also interesting is that Jim Williams & Tony McGahan (both Kidney proteges) were both selected by Robbie Deans/Australia for their coaching staff.

I don’t judge the success of the coaching staff by the jobs they get after they leave, or are ones they are “in the running for” or the nations that ate “looking at them”.

I base the success of the coaching staff on the results they produce.

Mickado wrote:Just having a look at some stats here lads. Doesn't make for good reading (obviously) but i notice that we had more possession and territory than NZ.

http://www.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/match/153844.html

Those stats (possession and territory) tend to drift away when one team can convert possession into a try so quickly.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Mickado wrote:Just having a look at some stats here lads. Doesn't make for good reading (obviously) but i notice that we had more possession and territory than NZ.

http://www.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/match/153844.html

Those stats (possession and territory) tend to drift away when one team can convert possession into a try so quickly.

I'm not trying to say this is a positive. What I'm saying is that even with more possession and territory we couldn't score a point.

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

KiaRose wrote:There has been a huge amount of criticism of Declan Kidney here. A thought occurred to me though. When he was appointed, he chose his own coaches - Alan Gaffney; Les Kiss; Gert Smal. Since then Gaffney has gone. Greg Feek has come in as scrum coach. All of these arrived with a reputation (Smal had coached the Springboks forwards when they won the 2007 RWC).

One has got to ask, why they are staying? Surely if Kidney is so bad, their reputation will suffer as well? If they have no faith in DK, why do they stay? Or to put it another way, as they are staying, must we infer that they believe DK is the right man for the job?

If the answer to that last question is "Yes", then we have to look beyond the coaching team for the reason Ireland is misfiring - unless we believe that NONE of them is worth their position ...

Excellent point. Gert Smal was in the running for the SA job when it came up and he choose to stay here. I'd be pretty sure that Australia might have been looking at Les Kiss as well after Ireland's win in the rugby world cup.

Also interesting is that Jim Williams & Tony McGahan (both Kidney proteges) were both selected by Robbie Deans/Australia for their coaching staff.

I don’t judge the success of the coaching staff by the jobs they get after they leave, or are ones they are “in the running for” or the nations that ate “looking at them”.

I base the success of the coaching staff on the results they produce.

The point was made that if Kidney was such a complete eejit as you like to make out, he wouldn't have attracted or keep his coaching staff particularly when they have had very handsome offers.

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

KiaRose wrote:There has been a huge amount of criticism of Declan Kidney here. A thought occurred to me though. When he was appointed, he chose his own coaches - Alan Gaffney; Les Kiss; Gert Smal. Since then Gaffney has gone. Greg Feek has come in as scrum coach. All of these arrived with a reputation (Smal had coached the Springboks forwards when they won the 2007 RWC).

One has got to ask, why they are staying? Surely if Kidney is so bad, their reputation will suffer as well? If they have no faith in DK, why do they stay? Or to put it another way, as they are staying, must we infer that they believe DK is the right man for the job?

If the answer to that last question is "Yes", then we have to look beyond the coaching team for the reason Ireland is misfiring - unless we believe that NONE of them is worth their position ...

Excellent point. Gert Smal was in the running for the SA job when it came up and he choose to stay here. I'd be pretty sure that Australia might have been looking at Les Kiss as well after Ireland's win in the rugby world cup.

Also interesting is that Jim Williams & Tony McGahan (both Kidney proteges) were both selected by Robbie Deans/Australia for their coaching staff.

I don’t judge the success of the coaching staff by the jobs they get after they leave, or are ones they are “in the running for” or the nations that ate “looking at them”.

I base the success of the coaching staff on the results they produce.

The point was made that if Kidney was such a complete eejit as you like to make out, he wouldn't have attracted or keep his coaching staff particularly when they have had very handsome offers.

Hang on now. Who has he attracted to his coaching staff since 2008? Greg Feek, and that's just on a part time basis. Other than that he's lost Alan Gaffney (no harm there) and not been able to attact a proper backs coach. It's very unusual for backroom staff to move on outside of their contract.

But SinÉ I dont think anyone had a problem with Kidney in 2008-2010.

The issue though that most have is that the coaching team seemed unable to get to grips when the IRB changed the laws in 2010.

We have been very very poor for the last two years every now, delivering once every five or six matches. However even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

If we were to focus on matches involving England, France, Wales, Australia, South Africa and New Zealand (i.e. the teams I would be hoping to be on a par with as opposed to Italy, Scotland, Fiji, Samoa, USA, Russia etc) over the past two seasons we have this.

Lost to New Zealand
Lost to Australia
Lost to South Africa
Lost to New Zealand
Lost to France
Lost to Wales
Beat England
Lost to France
Lost to France
Lost to England
Beat Australia
Lost to Wales
Lost to Wales
Drew with France
Lost to England
Lost to New Zealand
Lost to New Zealand
Lost to New Zealand

We even lost to Scotland twice in the last two years too.

Our next two big matches are against South Africa in November and Wales in February. Right now you would have to imagine unless there is a change we are looking at another two defeats.

Although by my count we are due another "big performance" soon enough.

Why would they go anywhere else Sin and face the pressure to succeed when they can coach in Ireland, win 45% of their games and still get paid a massive salary from the IRFU. Gert Smal must feel like hes won the lottery.

It's a no brainer. Ireland is a mediocre coaches dream, no matter how shoite you are at your job you'll get 4 times as long in the role as you will anywhere else.

All you have to do is continue to talk your team down and convince the world you are underdogs no matter how good of players you have to choose from and how much resources you have at your disposal.

Divert attention away from the shortcomings in selection and performance by talking gibberish and throwing out silly cliches to the media.

Kidney is the master at it.

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

KiaRose wrote:There has been a huge amount of criticism of Declan Kidney here. A thought occurred to me though. When he was appointed, he chose his own coaches - Alan Gaffney; Les Kiss; Gert Smal. Since then Gaffney has gone. Greg Feek has come in as scrum coach. All of these arrived with a reputation (Smal had coached the Springboks forwards when they won the 2007 RWC).

One has got to ask, why they are staying? Surely if Kidney is so bad, their reputation will suffer as well? If they have no faith in DK, why do they stay? Or to put it another way, as they are staying, must we infer that they believe DK is the right man for the job?

If the answer to that last question is "Yes", then we have to look beyond the coaching team for the reason Ireland is misfiring - unless we believe that NONE of them is worth their position ...

Excellent point. Gert Smal was in the running for the SA job when it came up and he choose to stay here. I'd be pretty sure that Australia might have been looking at Les Kiss as well after Ireland's win in the rugby world cup.

Also interesting is that Jim Williams & Tony McGahan (both Kidney proteges) were both selected by Robbie Deans/Australia for their coaching staff.

I don’t judge the success of the coaching staff by the jobs they get after they leave, or are ones they are “in the running for” or the nations that ate “looking at them”.

I base the success of the coaching staff on the results they produce.

The point was made that if Kidney was such a complete eejit as you like to make out, he wouldn't have attracted or keep his coaching staff particularly when they have had very handsome offers.

Hang on now. Who has he attracted to his coaching staff since 2008? Greg Feek, and that's just on a part time basis. Other than that he's lost Alan Gaffney (no harm there) and not been able to attact a proper backs coach. It's very unusual for backroom staff to move on outside of their contract.

I think an exception would be made in the case of Gert Smal and SA. Jim Williams was released early to go back to Australia.

A backs coach is far more likely to be put off by the lack of quality of the players than who the head coach is.
England have struggled to hire a backs coach as well and they have some decent talent coming through.

Here’s a question.

If Kidney was still Munster coach and he was producing performances and results as poor as Ireland’s over the last 2 years, would he still have a job?

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

KiaRose wrote:There has been a huge amount of criticism of Declan Kidney here. A thought occurred to me though. When he was appointed, he chose his own coaches - Alan Gaffney; Les Kiss; Gert Smal. Since then Gaffney has gone. Greg Feek has come in as scrum coach. All of these arrived with a reputation (Smal had coached the Springboks forwards when they won the 2007 RWC).

One has got to ask, why they are staying? Surely if Kidney is so bad, their reputation will suffer as well? If they have no faith in DK, why do they stay? Or to put it another way, as they are staying, must we infer that they believe DK is the right man for the job?

If the answer to that last question is "Yes", then we have to look beyond the coaching team for the reason Ireland is misfiring - unless we believe that NONE of them is worth their position ...

Excellent point. Gert Smal was in the running for the SA job when it came up and he choose to stay here. I'd be pretty sure that Australia might have been looking at Les Kiss as well after Ireland's win in the rugby world cup.

Also interesting is that Jim Williams & Tony McGahan (both Kidney proteges) were both selected by Robbie Deans/Australia for their coaching staff.

I don’t judge the success of the coaching staff by the jobs they get after they leave, or are ones they are “in the running for” or the nations that ate “looking at them”.

I base the success of the coaching staff on the results they produce.

The point was made that if Kidney was such a complete eejit as you like to make out, he wouldn't have attracted or keep his coaching staff particularly when they have had very handsome offers.

Hang on now. Who has he attracted to his coaching staff since 2008? Greg Feek, and that's just on a part time basis. Other than that he's lost Alan Gaffney (no harm there) and not been able to attact a proper backs coach. It's very unusual for backroom staff to move on outside of their contract.

I think an exception would be made in the case of Gert Smal and SA. Jim Williams was released early to go back to Australia.

A backs coach is far more likely to be put off by the lack of quality of the players than who the head coach is.
England have struggled to hire a backs coach as well and they have some decent talent coming through.

So we lack quality backs? European player of the year and multiple world player of the year nominee aside or…?

rodders wrote:Why would they go anywhere else Sin and face the pressure to succeed when they can coach in Ireland, win 45% of their games and still get paid a massive salary from the IRFU. Gert Smal must feel like hes won the lottery.

It's a no brainer. Ireland is a mediocre coaches dream, no matter how shoite you are at your job you'll get 4 times as long in the role as you will anywhere else.

All you have to do is continue to talk your team down and convince the world you are underdogs no matter how good of players you have to choose from and how much resources you have at your disposal.

Divert attention away from the shortcomings in selection and performance by talking gibberish and throwing out silly cliches to the media.

Kidney is the master at it.

England are the only country that fire their coaches on poor performances. Graham Henry got a stab at 2 world cups (having failed miserably in '07), Scotland ? , Wales - Gatty was under a lot of pressure up to the world cup (and Wales still haven't beaten Australia in 40 years), Robbie Deans is lucky to be still with Aus after the world cup, SA stuck with de villiers as well.

Christ Sin you are a rare case. Every thread you enter you start a row, always have, always will it seems.

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

KiaRose wrote:There has been a huge amount of criticism of Declan Kidney here. A thought occurred to me though. When he was appointed, he chose his own coaches - Alan Gaffney; Les Kiss; Gert Smal. Since then Gaffney has gone. Greg Feek has come in as scrum coach. All of these arrived with a reputation (Smal had coached the Springboks forwards when they won the 2007 RWC).

One has got to ask, why they are staying? Surely if Kidney is so bad, their reputation will suffer as well? If they have no faith in DK, why do they stay? Or to put it another way, as they are staying, must we infer that they believe DK is the right man for the job?

If the answer to that last question is "Yes", then we have to look beyond the coaching team for the reason Ireland is misfiring - unless we believe that NONE of them is worth their position ...

Excellent point. Gert Smal was in the running for the SA job when it came up and he choose to stay here. I'd be pretty sure that Australia might have been looking at Les Kiss as well after Ireland's win in the rugby world cup.

Also interesting is that Jim Williams & Tony McGahan (both Kidney proteges) were both selected by Robbie Deans/Australia for their coaching staff.

I don’t judge the success of the coaching staff by the jobs they get after they leave, or are ones they are “in the running for” or the nations that ate “looking at them”.

I base the success of the coaching staff on the results they produce.

The point was made that if Kidney was such a complete eejit as you like to make out, he wouldn't have attracted or keep his coaching staff particularly when they have had very handsome offers.

Hang on now. Who has he attracted to his coaching staff since 2008? Greg Feek, and that's just on a part time basis. Other than that he's lost Alan Gaffney (no harm there) and not been able to attact a proper backs coach. It's very unusual for backroom staff to move on outside of their contract.

I think an exception would be made in the case of Gert Smal and SA. Jim Williams was released early to go back to Australia.

A backs coach is far more likely to be put off by the lack of quality of the players than who the head coach is.
England have struggled to hire a backs coach as well and they have some decent talent coming through.

So we lack quality backs? European player of the year and multiple world player of the year nominee aside or…?

ROG won Best Player of the Heineken Cup over 15 years and ye all think he is Poopie (not the same as international) and its a bit much to expect Rob to carry the backline at fullback (his tackling would need to improve for one).

What has that got to do with anything. ROG Isn't Ireland's best OH, Kearney and BOD are at least the best in their position. Do you really think the reason we don't have a backs coach is that we have poor backs or are you just trying to have a dig at Leinster players?

Mickado wrote:Here’s a question.

If Kidney was still Munster coach and he was producing performances and results as poor as Ireland’s over the last 2 years, would he still have a job?

You mean like how Munster has been over the last two years (in transition). Tony McGahan wasn't fired, he got a better job offer back in Aus.

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:Here’s a question.

If Kidney was still Munster coach and he was producing performances and results as poor as Ireland’s over the last 2 years, would he still have a job?

You mean like how Munster has been over the last two years (in transition). Tony McGahan wasn't fired, he got a better job offer back in Aus.

Munster won a league. Kidney achieved anything which could be compared to winning a trophy.

Mickado wrote:What has that got to do with anything. ROG Isn't Ireland's best OH, Kearney and BOD are at least the best in their position. Do you really think the reason we don't have a backs coach is that we have poor backs or are you just trying to have a dig at Leinster players?

Just pointing out the different standards between international and club. Also, BOD may have been best in that position, but he had a very poor game last Saturday and how you can hang that on Declan Kidney is beyond me.

Rodders said that Kidney couldn't get a backs coach. I think a new backs coach would be far more interested in the players available than who the head coach is.

It would seem that club coaching is far more attractive than international nowadays.

"A backs coach is far more likely to be put off by the lack of quality of the players than who the head coach is."

Sin, I really cannot believe that you would rather put down our players to protect Kidney, than admit that he is doing a crap job. Seriously, you are no Ireland fan mate. We have some real talent coming through the ranks, from all the provinces, and you know that we do. So don't even try coming out with that crap. If Kidney doesn't want to use the talent he has available, that is his problem. If he wants to have them playing crap rugby, that is his mistake. However, don't use that as an excuse to say we have none available.

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:Here’s a question.

If Kidney was still Munster coach and he was producing performances and results as poor as Ireland’s over the last 2 years, would he still have a job?

You mean like how Munster has been over the last two years (in transition). Tony McGahan wasn't fired, he got a better job offer back in Aus.

Munster won a league. Kidney achieved anything which could be compared to winning a trophy.

You mean the league that none of you Leinster boys rate? (read the thread).

Not qualifying for the knocks for the first time in 13 years or something would have been a bigger disappointment and then losing to 'Quins in the Amlin in Thomond.

The Munster players still claim that they let McGahan down badly.

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:No one is saying leinster are amazing international quality or any of that rubbish. People admire the way they play like a team with an a plan, as they are coached properly

Hang on a second here - much of the stuff we hear is that Leinster are a better team than Ireland and that if you slot in a few players like Bowe and have Schmidt as coach, Ireland too will be winning all around them.

No one is saying Ireland are amazing international quality.Also nobody is claiming that with Schmidt as coach we would be wining all round us either,we're just claiming we'd be competitve at 6 Nations and wouldn't be getting embarrassed lke we were last week.

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:What has that got to do with anything. ROG Isn't Ireland's best OH, Kearney and BOD are at least the best in their position. Do you really think the reason we don't have a backs coach is that we have poor backs or are you just trying to have a dig at Leinster players?

Just pointing out the different standards between international and club. Also, BOD may have been best in that position, but he had a very poor game last Saturday and how you can hang that on Declan Kidney is beyond me.

Rodders said that Kidney couldn't get a backs coach. I think a new backs coach would be far more interested in the players available than who the head coach is.

It would seem that club coaching is far more attractive than international nowadays.

Well that would certainly explain why Williams and McGahan left to coach with Australia.

When did I say that BODs poor performance was anything to do with Kidney. The team performance was the worst i've ever seen. I can hang that on Kidney, he's the man in charge, the buck stops with him. We're not 60 points worse than NZ.

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:Here’s a question.

If Kidney was still Munster coach and he was producing performances and results as poor as Ireland’s over the last 2 years, would he still have a job?

You mean like how Munster has been over the last two years (in transition). Tony McGahan wasn't fired, he got a better job offer back in Aus.

Munster won a league. Kidney achieved anything which could be compared to winning a trophy.

You mean the league that none of you Leinster boys rate? (read the thread).

Not qualifying for the knocks for the first time in 13 years or something would have been a bigger disappointment and then losing to 'Quins in the Amlin in Thomond.

The Munster players still claim that they let McGahan down badly.

I've read the thread and it was actually an Ulster poster who said that if we're winning HC's then who cares about the league. But carry on, another dig at Leinster.

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:What has that got to do with anything. ROG Isn't Ireland's best OH, Kearney and BOD are at least the best in their position. Do you really think the reason we don't have a backs coach is that we have poor backs or are you just trying to have a dig at Leinster players?

Just pointing out the different standards between international and club. Also, BOD may have been best in that position, but he had a very poor game last Saturday and how you can hang that on Declan Kidney is beyond me.

Rodders said that Kidney couldn't get a backs coach. I think a new backs coach would be far more interested in the players available than who the head coach is.

It would seem that club coaching is far more attractive than international nowadays.

Well that would certainly explain why Williams and McGahan left to coach with Australia.

When did I say that BODs poor performance was anything to do with Kidney. The team performance was the worst i've ever seen. I can hang that on Kidney, he's the man in charge, the buck stops with him. We're not 60 points worse than NZ.

We were on Saturday. Ireland were not making the tackles and were blown away physically.

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:What has that got to do with anything. ROG Isn't Ireland's best OH, Kearney and BOD are at least the best in their position. Do you really think the reason we don't have a backs coach is that we have poor backs or are you just trying to have a dig at Leinster players?

Just pointing out the different standards between international and club. Also, BOD may have been best in that position, but he had a very poor game last Saturday and how you can hang that on Declan Kidney is beyond me.

Rodders said that Kidney couldn't get a backs coach. I think a new backs coach would be far more interested in the players available than who the head coach is.

It would seem that club coaching is far more attractive than international nowadays.

Well that would certainly explain why Williams and McGahan left to coach with Australia.

When did I say that BODs poor performance was anything to do with Kidney. The team performance was the worst i've ever seen. I can hang that on Kidney, he's the man in charge, the buck stops with him. We're not 60 points worse than NZ.

We were on Saturday. Ireland were not making the tackles and were blown away physically.

So you’re the manager of a sales team in work.

They perform poorly one month, they very nearly reach target the next month and then they sell absolutely nothing the next month.

Is it your fault or the teams fault? It’s absolutely 100% your fault and you know it. I’m starting to think you might just be a really crap sales manager yourself and you’re just sticking up for Kidney out of solidarity

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:Here’s a question.

If Kidney was still Munster coach and he was producing performances and results as poor as Ireland’s over the last 2 years, would he still have a job?

You mean like how Munster has been over the last two years (in transition). Tony McGahan wasn't fired, he got a better job offer back in Aus.

Munster won a league. Kidney achieved anything which could be compared to winning a trophy.

You mean the league that none of you Leinster boys rate? (read the thread).

Not qualifying for the knocks for the first time in 13 years or something would have been a bigger disappointment and then losing to 'Quins in the Amlin in Thomond.

The Munster players still claim that they let McGahan down badly.

I've read the thread and it was actually an Ulster poster who said that if we're winning HC's then who cares about the league. But carry on, another dig at Leinster.

I thought Kunu was a Leinster supporter as he is based in Dublin. Easy mistake to make. So are you annoyed that Leinster have lost 3 Rabo finals in a row?

Kunu: Who gives a toss about the rabo when you are winning the HC?

Sin é wrote:
Rodders said that Kidney couldn't get a backs coach.

And when exactly did I say that? Kidney can get as many coaches as he wants. He's not up to the job and no amount of coaches will compensate for a head coach who doesn't know what he's doing.

All he is is a delegator, who offloads responsibility on to others and then refuses to take responsibility when things go round. He's a chancer that has long been found out.

Say what you want about EOS but he had a vision of how he wanted the team to play and where he wanted to go. The selection was consistant as were the tactics and performances. There were flaws in the process but at least there was an end goal.

This shower don't have any idea how to play rugby at this level, where this team is or where it is going. It's just all hit and hope followed by smoke and mirrors.

Kidney has refused to blame the players.

Do we then blame him?

If the IRFU don't blame him, then they must either blame the players or be ok with the results.

Are the IRFU ok with the result?

Out of interest, does BOD sound like he blames the coach or the team?

"That scoreline is a bit embarrassing. They were very, very clinical at the breakdown today and we were terrible. That combination resulted in 60 points."

"We knew that we had to start well and we didn't and that's what the All Blacks do - when they get a 15 or 20-point lead they just play their own game and you're running after them for 80 minutes,"

"We started well last week and that was the impetus we needed. We started terribly this week and they really came at us.

"To be 21 points down before 20 minutes was up, we were going to be chasing the game and we just made too many errors."

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:Here’s a question.

If Kidney was still Munster coach and he was producing performances and results as poor as Ireland’s over the last 2 years, would he still have a job?

You mean like how Munster has been over the last two years (in transition). Tony McGahan wasn't fired, he got a better job offer back in Aus.

Munster won a league. Kidney achieved anything which could be compared to winning a trophy.

You mean the league that none of you Leinster boys rate? (read the thread).

Not qualifying for the knocks for the first time in 13 years or something would have been a bigger disappointment and then losing to 'Quins in the Amlin in Thomond.

The Munster players still claim that they let McGahan down badly.

I've read the thread and it was actually an Ulster poster who said that if we're winning HC's then who cares about the league. But carry on, another dig at Leinster.

I thought Kunu was a Leinster supporter as he is based in Dublin. Easy mistake to make. So are you annoyed that Leinster have lost 3 Rabo finals in a row?

Kunu: Who gives a toss about the rabo when you are winning the HC?

What has that got to do with Kidney?

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:What has that got to do with anything. ROG Isn't Ireland's best OH, Kearney and BOD are at least the best in their position. Do you really think the reason we don't have a backs coach is that we have poor backs or are you just trying to have a dig at Leinster players?

Just pointing out the different standards between international and club. Also, BOD may have been best in that position, but he had a very poor game last Saturday and how you can hang that on Declan Kidney is beyond me.

Rodders said that Kidney couldn't get a backs coach. I think a new backs coach would be far more interested in the players available than who the head coach is.

It would seem that club coaching is far more attractive than international nowadays.

Well that would certainly explain why Williams and McGahan left to coach with Australia.

When did I say that BODs poor performance was anything to do with Kidney. The team performance was the worst i've ever seen. I can hang that on Kidney, he's the man in charge, the buck stops with him. We're not 60 points worse than NZ.

We were on Saturday. Ireland were not making the tackles and were blown away physically.

So you’re the manager of a sales team in work.

They perform poorly one month, they very nearly reach target the next month and then they sell absolutely nothing the next month.

Is it your fault or the teams fault? It’s absolutely 100% your fault and you know it. I’m starting to think you might just be a really crap sales manager yourself and you’re just sticking up for Kidney out of solidarity

I would hope the Sales Manager was set a realistic target. And things like if one of your best sales people is out sick, you can hire decent cover for him (i.e., like how Brad Thorn was brought into Leinster) would be taken into account.

Dig dig dig.

You can take your cheap shots at Leinster all you like. But it doesn't make your argument any stronger.

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:What has that got to do with anything. ROG Isn't Ireland's best OH, Kearney and BOD are at least the best in their position. Do you really think the reason we don't have a backs coach is that we have poor backs or are you just trying to have a dig at Leinster players?

Just pointing out the different standards between international and club. Also, BOD may have been best in that position, but he had a very poor game last Saturday and how you can hang that on Declan Kidney is beyond me.

Rodders said that Kidney couldn't get a backs coach. I think a new backs coach would be far more interested in the players available than who the head coach is.

It would seem that club coaching is far more attractive than international nowadays.

Well that would certainly explain why Williams and McGahan left to coach with Australia.

When did I say that BODs poor performance was anything to do with Kidney. The team performance was the worst i've ever seen. I can hang that on Kidney, he's the man in charge, the buck stops with him. We're not 60 points worse than NZ.

We were on Saturday. Ireland were not making the tackles and were blown away physically.

So you’re the manager of a sales team in work.

They perform poorly one month, they very nearly reach target the next month and then they sell absolutely nothing the next month.

Is it your fault or the teams fault? It’s absolutely 100% your fault and you know it. I’m starting to think you might just be a really crap sales manager yourself and you’re just sticking up for Kidney out of solidarity

I would hope the Sales Manager was set a realistic target. And things like if one of your best sales people is out sick, you can hire decent cover for him (i.e., like how Brad Thorn was brought into Leinster) would be taken into account.

Yea but Sin, some of the performances out there could be likened to a member of a sales team saying "you know what, this is sh!t, you probably dont want to be buying that!"

Where to now? Well, as predicted by me at the weekend, the sidetrackers have their player debate going strong. That should keep us all animated and distract more time and energy and attention away from the gaping chasm in logic that suggests a plethora of players are always responsible for producing the embarrasing games and yet the men overseeing the consistent dross with various players are the innocents abroad. Let's discuss the players by all means - who should go, who should stay - but the coaches? They're grand, the players are letting their genius down.

So where to now from my perspective? Well, first things first - first the questions and then the prompt answers.

Question One: Declan, you say you "know how to fix it". That's the declaration after the 60-0 turkey-shoot that happened at the weekend. So what's wrong? The specifics, not the philosophy. And how do you think you're going to fix it?

No, I don't want Sin és ideas of what Kidney thinks, or Rory's ideas on what he doesn't think, or Gibbo's ideas on why he couldn't care less what Declan thinks, or Mikado's ideas on what he should think or Rodder's ideas on the players Declan should use for his fixer. I simply want the man himself to sit down in a studio somewhere in RTE at some point in the next few weeks and talk straight for a change. I don't believe he's the future but I do want to hear why he still insists he can fix this constant mystery that has so far bamboozled his best efforts both in SH and back home in the NH.

Less post match bluff, less pre-match "enjoy the game" guff - I want those questions answered by the man who still thinks he knows the solutions. What's the problem. How are you going to fix it? When they're answered, we can proceed to the 'Where now for Ireland?' Some of us will want that 'where to' to include a new coaching set-up but only after Kidney puts his cards on the table should he be allowed to utter such a comment after what we've witnessed on the field.

Only now does Kidney acknowledge this mind-bendingly intractable lack of International standard consistency - before now it was always the 'mixing and matching' issues, the players going off form or going out injured issues, the "these things happen in rugby" issues, the "margins" issues and the "tryin' out new things" excuses. Only now can he bring himself to admit the truth he's been denying himself for a few years now. The problem is he doesn't have a rugby team - he has a scrap yard engine that still starts on occasion but is still hardly about to go anywhere worthwhile attached to a wreck with no wheels.

He can only fix something if he actually knows what his problems are. I don't think he's ever acknowledged that his coaches double-jobbing is a major problem, I don't think he's ever acknowledged that he's taken his attempts to fix the problems all the way to 8th in the world and sliding. I don't think he's ever acknowledged that the players look often totally confused and frustrated by the tactics coming from on high. If they have been explained to them, and if the players are all in agreement, then long faces wouldn't be the deal when yet another non-communication issue sees some players ready themselves to run whilst others remain oblivious to the need to achieve fast delivery to do so.

So if he knows how to fix the sinking ship then don't keep his thoughts secret, give us a perception of where his mind is on the problems and the plasters he's going to apply. He owes us the truth.

Thats not to say it is all down to the national coaches.

The players are not good enough to beat the ABs or compete with them over 3 tests. That is just the reality. New coaches aren't a silver bullet.

They are too good though to be losing 50% of their games and putting in these dire, inconsistant performances.

There are coaching issues at Ulster and Munster and disjointed attacking play there too at times, which Kidney can't be blamed for, but hopefully that will improve with the new coaches coming in.

clivemcl wrote:Kidney has refused to blame the players.

Do we then blame him?

If the IRFU don't blame him, then they must either blame the players or be ok with the results.

Are the IRFU ok with the result?

Out of interest, does BOD sound like he blames the coach or the team?

"That scoreline is a bit embarrassing. They were very, very clinical at the breakdown today and we were terrible. That combination resulted in 60 points."

"We knew that we had to start well and we didn't and that's what the All Blacks do - when they get a 15 or 20-point lead they just play their own game and you're running after them for 80 minutes,"

"We started well last week and that was the impetus we needed. We started terribly this week and they really came at us.

"To be 21 points down before 20 minutes was up, we were going to be chasing the game and we just made too many errors."

BOD said they made too many errors. Do you really need to blame anyone?

Another thread ruined by this guy. Can something not be done about his burnt offerings to this forum?

clivemcl wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:What has that got to do with anything. ROG Isn't Ireland's best OH, Kearney and BOD are at least the best in their position. Do you really think the reason we don't have a backs coach is that we have poor backs or are you just trying to have a dig at Leinster players?

Just pointing out the different standards between international and club. Also, BOD may have been best in that position, but he had a very poor game last Saturday and how you can hang that on Declan Kidney is beyond me.

Rodders said that Kidney couldn't get a backs coach. I think a new backs coach would be far more interested in the players available than who the head coach is.

It would seem that club coaching is far more attractive than international nowadays.

Well that would certainly explain why Williams and McGahan left to coach with Australia.

When did I say that BODs poor performance was anything to do with Kidney. The team performance was the worst i've ever seen. I can hang that on Kidney, he's the man in charge, the buck stops with him. We're not 60 points worse than NZ.

We were on Saturday. Ireland were not making the tackles and were blown away physically.

So you’re the manager of a sales team in work.

They perform poorly one month, they very nearly reach target the next month and then they sell absolutely nothing the next month.

Is it your fault or the teams fault? It’s absolutely 100% your fault and you know it. I’m starting to think you might just be a really crap sales manager yourself and you’re just sticking up for Kidney out of solidarity

I would hope the Sales Manager was set a realistic target. And things like if one of your best sales people is out sick, you can hire decent cover for him (i.e., like how Brad Thorn was brought into Leinster) would be taken into account.

Yea but Sin, some of the performances out there could be likened to a member of a sales team saying "you know what, this is sh!t, you probably dont want to be buying that!"

Well then I would suggest that member of the sales team should look for another job if he doesn't like what he is doing.

Sin é wrote:
BOD said they made too many errors. Do you really need to blame anyone?

You're damn right we need to blame someone. Guilt gets blamed. No guilt means we return next season to the 6Nations waffling about the Italians and telling all those who still have ears that we're going to have to respect them, and give them a game, and it's always tough against them, and they're physical, and they can catch you out if you try to be too smart, and beating them too easily or by too much is a lack of respect both to them and to the Six Nations competition. That's the result achieved when nothing and nobody gets blamed for New Zealand

I blame the players for conceding 60 points and scoring none.

I blame Kidney for picking a team which made it easier for the ABs to score 60 points and harder for us to score any.

The former is the main culprit but that doesn't absolve the latter from their share of responsibility.

Blame implies that there should be some kind of emotionally motivated punishment. That’s not the case. We need the IRFU to sit back and ask are they happy with this season, if the answer is no (please god let the answer be no) then they need to find out what happened to stop them reaching their goals. They need to remove any obstacles to their goals, implement steps to ensure it doesn’t happen again, then move on.

We don't need to BLAME anyone. But we do need to hold people accountable. And the buck ultimately stops with Kidney.

I blame the coach for not creating a team when he has had 4 years to do it.

Fly, did Graham Henry go into a tv studio and explain to the NZ public why NZ were knocked out of the world cup in '07 and what he planned to do to rectify the situation?

Nope, he just won it 4 years later instead. I think that shut the public up.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Nope, he just won it 4 years later instead. I think that shut the public up.

So, Kidney should be given 8 years then before being hauled into a tv studio to explain to the public why Ireland haven't won the world cup?

See, the best coaches can speak with results. If they lose, they will make sure they don't do it again. They won't make excuses, they will just make sure they win the next game. If their players aren't up to it, they will come down on them hard, and make sure they don't make the same mistakes. Kidney speaks with silly cliches to cover the results, without addressing the problems. His results tell a different story.

Graham Henry lost how many games as NZ coach?

There is no sensible comparison between GH and DK so why bother making it?

Mate, do not be so stupid.

You have completely lost the plot.

GH is consultant to Argentina and they just got spackled by France. Maybe he is a bad coach too!

rodders wrote:I blame the players for conceding 60 points and scoring none.

I blame Kidney for picking a team which made it easier for the ABs to score 60 points and harder for us to score any.

The former is the main culprit but that doesn't absolve the latter from their share of responsibility.

My opinion is and always has been that the former is the main culprit as they (not only Kidney but the coaching set-up in its entirity) are the common denominator. They remain in situ as different players come onboard and quickly learn that they're not very good players after all. If that's the environment, and evidence is bluntly there that it is, then it is an unhealthy one. Confidence in ability is something that gets sucked out of players when they arrive at camp Ireland - it's proven beyond all doubt.

If other players on other sides miraculously recover completely from hard, hard battles the previous week then it's also a mystery where the sense of space, timing and hunger goes when Irish players turn up for International. The common denominator ain't them.