England EPS

First topic message reminder :

Ok, the tour is over. The EPS for the 2012/13 season will be announced in early July (I think). It's named completely afresh and can have 5 changes in Jan 13 for the 6 nations. Who would be in you 32?

Injured players can be replaced no problem.

Actual EPS

Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers)
Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester)
Tom Palmer (London Wasps)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Matt Stevens (Saracens)
Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers)
Rob Webber (Bath)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
Charlie Sharples (Gloucester)
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Saxons

Nathan Catt (Bath)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Louis Deacon (Leicester Tigers)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints)
Carl Fearns (Bath)
James Gaskell (Sale Sharks)
Jamie Gibson (London Irish)
Joe Gray (Harlequins)
James Haskell (London Wasps)
Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
Matt Mullan (Worcester Warriors)
David Paice (London Irish)
George Robson (Harlequins)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)
David Wilson (Bath)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Nick Abendanon (Bath)
Miles Benjamin (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Biggs (Bath)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
George Lowe (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester)
Rob Miller (Sale Sharks)
Ugo Monye (Harlequins)
Joe Simpson (London Wasps)
David Strettle (Saracens)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester)
Christian Wade (London Wasps)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens).

He's never completed 80 minutes in an England shirt, he has been replaced every time he has started.

Yes that is all true, but who else is there at 8 if Morgan is ditched until his fitness improves (which could take a while)?

Waldrom is really no better than average at international level, and is too old to improve or be around for a long time.

Crane needs a decent amount of rugby under his belt before he can seriously be considered starting in an international. He's been out for such a long time.

Haskell could be the answer but I think he is much more of a flanker. He would provide decent cover at 8, but surely not the full time first choice in a position he has barely played?

Then who is there?

I'd rather have a guy who may not last the full game but will be good while he is on, and has youth on his side, than someone a lot worse. Anyway when he is match fit, he can last 80 minutes, he may just be a bit less effective for a period of the game. This general lack of fitness issue has been exacerbated by being injured and therefore not at his peak match fitness. He was still okay for the first halves of the games he played despite his injury issues.

In all honesty, if he cannot last 8 minutes, and presuming that Croft is going to be fit for the AI's I would prefer to see 6. Croft 7. Robshaw 8. Haskell, and failing that if we are saying Haskell is no longer an 8 I would even stick Tom Johnson in at 8 ahead of him at present.

I agree Haskell is a flanker more so than an 8...HOWEVER if through the season...Morgan, Fearns, Crane etc all dont prove fitness or form...then i would happily put Haskell in at 8.

Dont forget York who has just joined us from quins...learning under Deano...might be one to watch aswell.....

TJ is no 8, similar with Robshaw.

Waldroum is a good player, he gets bad press on here. Haskell doesn't play 8

Morgan played 80 against the Northern Barbarians. He was just finding his way back to fitness.

TJ has played 8 before and I reckon could do a decent job there. It may even suit him more than playing blindside at international level as I can see him getting more pace to carry in from that position and he is a better carrier in space than in tight.

DaveM wrote:Morgan played 80 against the Northern Barbarians. He was just finding his way back to fitness.

The Northern Barbarians were made up from players in the second tier of Currie Cup rugby. I am just turned 36 and I could complete 80 minutes at that level still.

No i wouldnt have TJ at 8.

We have options. Leave him to battle for that 6 spot...a difficult challenge anyway.

He still managed 80 minutes. It takes time to get match fit at international level.

A decent pre-season and he'll be fine.

Incidentally, I didn't know Garvey called your line out? A useful string for him to have.

I can't see how you'd prefer TJ at 8 over Morgan, TJ is not an International 8 by a long shot

This season is going to be MASSIVE for so many players and for Englands development....

How many youngsters are on the verge of claiming a starting spot...some in wide open spots for England.

How many players need to really put their hand up and regain previous form

How many returning from injury...

Big Big season....

I'm not convinced that Garvey has called the lineout to be honest. It would have been Big Bob Casey, then Kendo, then Bryn Evans calling the shots.

Garvey is a decent front jumper but not really a lineout technician and I certainly wouldn't think he would be calling it at international level.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I can't see how you'd prefer TJ at 8 over Morgan, TJ is not an International 8 by a long shot

I wouldn't have him over a fit Morgan. But I would have him over a half fit Morgan who cannot complete 80 minutes. Just so everyone is clear, if Morgan gets himself fit and can last 80 minutes at test match intensity then he's my first choice 8. If he cannot do that then I would not have him in as I don't think we should pick players who cannot last the entire match at full pace.

Id prefer an 8 to play 8 and not have to play a flanker there at all

I reckon keep an eye out for York. Not this season but next season will be big for Newcastle

First 7/8 games for Quins York was quality. Fast, physical and a great offload. Not sure he could step up but he's only 22/23, Richards could really sort him out

23 as an 8 isn't that old. Wish we'd kept him frankly

I'm surprised you didn't lose Guest (and surprised he didn't go) tbh, York looks like he has more potential.

Don't you have another young 8 coming through?

ChequeredJersey wrote:I reckon keep an eye out for York. Not this season but next season will be big for Newcastle

I agree...

I also think we shouldnt give up on Fearns. I am a big believer in his ability. He showed glimpses at times in the midweek...we just need to get him fit.

Back row...lets not get confussed

6 - Croft, Wood, Fearns, Johnson, Haskell
7 - Robshaw, Armitage?,
8 - Morgan, Crane, Fearns, Haskell

would be the options i think we have at the moment....

Fearns/Crane.....nooooooooooo!!!!

Ozzy3213 wrote:I'm not convinced that Garvey has called the lineout to be honest. It would have been Big Bob Casey, then Kendo, then Bryn Evans calling the shots.

Garvey is a decent front jumper but not really a lineout technician and I certainly wouldn't think he would be calling it at international level.

Makes sense. Would have to play with a Parling Croft combination then, or something very similar.

If I were him I'd go to Brian Smith and explain that I had England ambitions and that I wanted to be used almost exclusively as a lock.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Fearns/Crane.....nooooooooooo!!!!

For once we are in agreement Pooly.

Jack Wallace is a very good U20 8, I expect Poorfour and such will know before about him than I

Haha....that's the second time in 2 weeks you've said that!

Clifford is the next 8 at Quins, then Chisholm's brother.

England 7s are: Robshaw, Haskell (just played a season of Super Rugby at 7), Wood, Johnson, then probably Fearns. Armitage has ruled himself out, but there are plenty of creidble options. Hopefully Kvesic will kick on, and maybe Clark will redeem himself over time.

Well i hope Fearns gets fit and proves you wrong...

DaveM wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:I'm not convinced that Garvey has called the lineout to be honest. It would have been Big Bob Casey, then Kendo, then Bryn Evans calling the shots.

Garvey is a decent front jumper but not really a lineout technician and I certainly wouldn't think he would be calling it at international level.

Makes sense. Would have to play with a Parling Croft combination then, or something very similar.

If I were him I'd go to Brian Smith and explain that I had England ambitions and that I wanted to be used almost exclusively as a lock.

His is generally. He only played blindside at the tail end if last season as we had no fit back row forwards.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well i hope Fearns gets fit and proves you wrong...

He needs to get fit and become much better at rugby too! Lol

I meant Jack Clifford oops.

Wallace is wasps FB

Chisholms brother looked good, isn't he about 17 though? so a long long way off first team action.

maybe Clark will redeem himself over time.

No thanks Dave. Dragging another players arm back far enough for him to scream in pain and then keep pulling until it breaks is just plain thuggish, in fact that's an insult to thugs. His 32 week ban is a farce (50% taken off for previous good behaviour? He was previously red carded for a headbutt) and I never want to see him near an England shirt.

Crane is a good option and once hit could be a handy player to have. A good tail end of the lineout option, massive work rate (will help out Robshaw in the tackle and ruck count) and will carry forever in the tight exchanges always making ground even if it is measured in inches. He also has an excellent understanding with Youngs and has scored a good number of tries appearing on Youngs inside shoulder for the reverse pass as Youngs picks and steps drawing the defenders. Not got the pace and dynacism of Morgan but he does have a suprisingly good passing and kicking game which isn't always seen because of his work in the tight.

What about Gibson or Gray from London Irish at 8? I know Gray hasn't played much last season but he could work his way into the starting lineup next season.

suprised to see people talking about crane, he wasnt able to oust easter from the england side, correctly imo. he'll have to have a cracking start to the season to be in with a chance of getting into the 6 nations squad, I dont see how he can be considered for the AI's.

It will be interesting to see how morgan goes at gloucester, most of us have only seena handful of scarlets HC games and everything else is at test level with morgan, the hardest level of rugby for a player to shine. Narraway has been a good player for glous in that position in recent years it will be a solid challenge for morgan to show what more he can bring.

there really arent that many english 8's in contention, i wouldnt be at all suprised to see easter have another barnstorming season for quins, but im certain he will never be selcted for england again.

i believe, right now, judging by this thread im in a minority, that waldrom is englands first choice 8.

Morgan backed up by Waldroum for me, very happy with those two going forward.

HQ matt wrote:
i believe, right now, judging by this thread im in a minority, that waldrom is englands first choice 8.

I cant see how he isnt. He was actually pretty effective, and Morgan was dropped for a reason. But he surely cant be the long term plan surely?
So I guess it depends what you define first choice as, the player Lancaster wants in the role long term or the one whos likely to get selected for the next game so england have a chance of winning ( sorry whats that Lancaster this tour was about getting away from that?)
The current england backrow model is to have a big lump at 8, but they need one who can play more than 60 minutes. Beacuse Easter was ditched this means Morgan when hes fit filled in for by journeymen with a handful of caps. I dont think that was in Lancaster powerpoint presentation that got him the job.

Crane, well lets wait till he plays a game of rugby. He may come back into the frame, but right now hes not.

DaveM wrote:Clifford is the next 8 at Quins, then Chisholm's brother.

England 7s are: Robshaw, Haskell (just played a season of Super Rugby at 7), Wood, Johnson, then probably Fearns. Armitage has ruled himself out, but there are plenty of creidble options. Hopefully Kvesic will kick on, and maybe Clark will redeem himself over time.

How do you rate Clifford? I'm being harsh, but he seemed a little bit of a show pony in the U20's SN and JWC. He seemed really good at following breaks and finishing them off, but he didn't seem to make too many himself or do enough of the grunt work.

Ben Kay, my brother and i are perhaps the only 3 voices of dissent here but we all thought that Ben Youngs actually slowed us down on tour. He was slow from the base and invariably took a step or two before passing to a forward who was then under immediate pressure.

I can see that Youngs' draw and pass game from 9 can work but you need everyone playing to that system and it did not look like everyone was on the same page. At all.

I wasn't sure about Crane a number of years back, but a couple of seasons ago I felt he really stepped up a gear and should have been selected in the EPS (another of Johnson's shoddy selections), that was then unfortunately swiftly followed by his injury issues. If he can approach that sort of form on his return I think he should and will be selected.

Morgan has still got a fair bit he needs to add to his game. His issues with fitness were apparent before this tour and his preceeding injury. During the 6N he didn't have more than half a game in him, and in that half he flitted in and out. He'd put in 2 or 3 pretty useful charges, but you need a bit more frequency than that, particularly as his contributions elsewhere were a bit limited.

Crane was playing with a niggly injury too wasn't he? I certainly seem to remember him being a little jaded before his layoff.

Triangulation wrote:Ben Kay, my brother and i are perhaps the only 3 voices of dissent here but we all thought that Ben Youngs actually slowed us down on tour. He was slow from the base and invariably took a step or two before passing to a forward who was then under immediate pressure.

I can see that Youngs' draw and pass game from 9 can work but you need everyone playing to that system and it did not look like everyone was on the same page. At all.

Whilst its fair to say that England didnt make the best of it is it fair to say that Englands attack was better with Dickson and Farrell? No. Care plays pretty much the same as Youngs, both bring a lot more to Englands go forward especially when Floood is on the pitch with them. First game he just kicked too much, I suspect that came from instruction incase Farrell forgot to do it. Rather than focussing on the negatives of the better performing attacking players for England Id hope Lancaster and catt would be looking at how to join the dots and start teaching their players how to make the most from each other. In theory England have quite a swish back line, they just dont seem able to assemble them into any kind of attacking force due to a mixture of injuries and flip flopping on how they should lineup.
Meanwhile the wings sit around and wait for someone to kick the ball to them.

suprised to see people talking about crane, he wasnt able to oust easter from the england side, correctly imo.

I'd be inclined to disagree with that HQ matt. Easter was the man with the shirt and Crane was starting to hammer on the door. His MOTM performance against Sarries was outstanding when Tigers won the AP last and had he not had a foot injury he would have toured that summer. That foot injury delayed him in the new season and then a tigh injury held him back with only sporadic appearences. Another good performance in the AP final despite Tigers losing saw him hold joint Saxons captaincy with Narraway in the last Churchill Cup. Crane ended up playing every game and did very well despite being only 80% fit. He couldn't get over the injury so had an operation which ruled him out of the RWC (both him and Narraway were tipped to be ahead of Waldrom but both had fitness issues so couldn't join the RWC training squad). He missed the last season because of recovery from the op.

In short, injuries have slowed his progress despite Johnno wanting to add to his caps (Johnno gave him his debut cap) but his performances have been old school but reliably good.

I can see that Youngs' draw and pass game from 9 can work but you need everyone playing to that system and it did not look like everyone was on the same page.

I said similar in the 6N Tri, either the team needs to adapt or Youngs needs to be dropped. There were signs of the team adapting in the second test and then even more when Care played to the same Youngs game plan (without the precise box kicks of the second test) in the third which shows the direction Catt wants to move the teams attack in.

Left field and thinking out loud now....

We have 3 excellent fullbacks - foden, brown and goode.

One of them in goode can play 10 because he has excellent footballing skills.

Should we ask Saracens (or another club) to look at developing him as a 12? Our longstanding problem position.

Or is it 36 or bust?

p.s. I dont normally like players "out of position" but im saying at club level first!

pps

i m not saying it IS the answer. just asking the question.

Whole team of FBs. Way forward

Suggesting that Crane shouldn't be picked because he couldn't oust Easter is a bit strange. Especially given that Easter is 'probably' the best 8 at the moment in England but isn't being selected due him being old (not good for the team). same could be said for all the current No. 8s.

Also, was Crane one of Lancaster academy players while at Leeds? That may go in his favour.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Whole team of FBs. Way forward

They would be extremely good under the high ball!

Triangulation wrote:Left field and thinking out loud now....

We have 3 excellent fullbacks - foden, brown and goode.

One of them in goode can play 10 because he has excellent footballing skills.

Should we ask Saracens (or another club) to look at developing him as a 12? Our longstanding problem position.

Or is it 36 or bust?

Maybe Tait will make it back and can play 13 as well...

Bear in mind one of these full backs is actually a frustrated scrum half, and another one a frustrated fly half. And both our fly halves are centers by birth.