England EPS

First topic message reminder :

Ok, the tour is over. The EPS for the 2012/13 season will be announced in early July (I think). It's named completely afresh and can have 5 changes in Jan 13 for the 6 nations. Who would be in you 32?

Injured players can be replaced no problem.

Actual EPS

Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers)
Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester)
Tom Palmer (London Wasps)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Matt Stevens (Saracens)
Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers)
Rob Webber (Bath)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
Charlie Sharples (Gloucester)
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Saxons

Nathan Catt (Bath)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Louis Deacon (Leicester Tigers)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints)
Carl Fearns (Bath)
James Gaskell (Sale Sharks)
Jamie Gibson (London Irish)
Joe Gray (Harlequins)
James Haskell (London Wasps)
Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
Matt Mullan (Worcester Warriors)
David Paice (London Irish)
George Robson (Harlequins)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)
David Wilson (Bath)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Nick Abendanon (Bath)
Miles Benjamin (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Biggs (Bath)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
George Lowe (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester)
Rob Miller (Sale Sharks)
Ugo Monye (Harlequins)
Joe Simpson (London Wasps)
David Strettle (Saracens)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester)
Christian Wade (London Wasps)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens).

Crane is certainly a player who will make those hard yards from what I have seen, and he has a tireless work ethic.

Marler carries well in the AP but looked well out of it against SA, it's such a step up. We just don't seem to develop these types of players.....dare I say Callum Clarke?

I think Hartley has been hugely dissapointing in the loose. He may make up for that in the breakdown etc...but i really belive his place could come under huge pressure IF Tom youngs makes a storming start to the season.

I will also be intertested to see IF webber starts over Lindsay who is another awesome prospect and finished as first choice for wasps.

Clark could definitely provide the grunt and the real dog that our pack lacks, but my issue is that he should not be in the squad right now as I think it sends out a poor message selecting a player who is currently banned, and for what was a really despicable act.

He should have to come back and play for Saints and earn the right to wear an England shirt all over again.

If Lancaster actually thinks that Johnson & Dowson are better players than Haskell I think Englands turnaround may not be so soon afterall.

Has he not watched Haskell in the SR season or in the 3rd test. He is shoulders above all in terms of intensity... he made over 20 tackles in the 3rd test and brought the aggression ENG lacked beforehand.

Had he not played England would have probably lost by 10+ points.

Also, Parling is not test class. There is one reason to pick him... the lineout, yet against a debut pair of locks in the latest series he came out second best, never challenged on their ball and lost quite a number of his own... and Etzebeth is not a lineout jumper... he manages at best, but against ENG he looked good... says it all really.

If thats the case, why is he chosen??? He can't carry, isn't a great scrummager & is only an adequate tackler.
Tom Croft with someone like Palmer gives England so much more dimension to their game. Put in an enforcer in his place and you have a dynamic lineout and real grit in the loose.

The SH sides will have no trouble with England at this rate.

I agree that Hartley has disappointed with his carrying in internationals. It's not that he doesn't carry for England, it's just that he seems incapable of making a real impact at the top level in terms of yards. He has on occasion, but it's a disappointing return given his effectiveness at AP level.

A lot of it is purely down to the step-up in physicality though - will Tom Youngs make that step-up any more easily? We'll see. I wouldn't put it past Hartley to step-up either - he is still a young-ish lad after all.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I will also be intertested to see IF webber starts over Lindsay who is another awesome prospect and finished as first choice for wasps.

Webber is now at Bath. He'll need to displace Mears in the side. I guess they'll get about 50/50 game time.

Where to start there FA0019, couldn't disagree more with some of those points

Agree on Hartley GF, he's went backwards at rate

jeffwinger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I will also be intertested to see IF webber starts over Lindsay who is another awesome prospect and finished as first choice for wasps.

Webber is now at Bath. He'll need to displace Mears in the side. I guess they'll get about 50/50 game time.

Really...aw i didnt see that. Well Lindsay's gonna be first choice...Webber at Bath...Youngs probably at Tigers, Gray at Quins, Paice at Irish...plenty of English guys there...

Who have we got at second row? actually playing for their clubs...

Wasps have brought in a Welsh hook who's likely to be 1st choice, I'm a big fan of Lindsay too.

Well there is only 2 real points there...

1. Haskell is a far better player than Johnson & Dowson.. i.e. Haskell is a genuine test class player... the other 2 are journeymen.

2. For Parling to be chosen, given he adds nothing to ENG outside of the lineout... he needs to be dominant.. at the moment he is being dominated..... by guys who started their first ever super rugby games.... 3 months earlier.

Just my humble opinion... but at the moment I don't look at Lancaster with too much confidence.

FA,

I do agree with you about haskell in the final test....he was massive...and i canty believe he's not in the EPS. The only thing is that Wood might not make it back for the AI's so Hask must be promoted...doesnt hide the fact he should be in!

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Wasps have brought in a Welsh hook who's likely to be 1st choice, I'm a big fan of Lindsay too.

Aw i hope not mate...Lindsay is quality and a real bruiser...just needs a little lineout practice.

From what I read about Croft he's not due back for Tigers until October at the earliest so on that basis unlikely to be ready for test match rugby within a couple of weeks.

Leaving Haskell out and including Dowson is just mental in my opinion.

I read an article about Haskell needing a break from rugby. He has had a non stop season. France, Japan, NZ, England.

Just so that comment didn't seem totally random, I mean that might be the reason he was left out.

It's always a possibility Rory, but if he's back and playing for Wasps, which I am sure he will be, then I can't see a reason for leaving him out of the EPS.

"Also, Parling is not test class. There is one reason to pick him... the lineout, yet against a debut pair of locks in the latest series he came out second best, never challenged on their ball and lost quite a number of his own... and Etzebeth is not a lineout jumper... he manages at best, but against ENG he looked good... says it all really."

Parling was excellent in the lineout seen as we basically only had him and Botha who provide an option (Robshaw also pretty handy).

SA have a top draw lineout with their whole back 5 very handy, especially Kruger & Spies. I think Etzebeth is an excellent jumper and has been great there in the S15.

Never challenged on opp ball - erm, not really true. Parling made 2 steals throughout the 3 games which again is pretty decent against 5 good options.

I don't think Parling is a world class lock by any means but he's bloody good in the lineout and the best we have by far.

Its strange about haskell...he was called straight back for the tour...played a blinder in the test he played in....and then is dropped to the Saxons....

Maybe they're trying to manage him abit...who knows...

Perhaps it is his attitude; the guy has an ego the size of a small country. Some say his personality is not an issue and only his rugby matters but of course it does. We know that characters like Cipriani and Henson have alienated themselves and whilst i don't think Haskell is in their class he clearly has a tendency to be high profile and this flies in the face of what SL is trying to achieve

I am very suprised to see Matt Stevens in there.

majesticimperialman wrote:I am very suprised to see Matt Stevens in there.

It was part of the deal with Sarries to allow Andy Farrell to join. Sarries don't want Stevens either


Really it highlights the paucity at TH - with Lancaster waiting to see whether Henry thomas can step up to the mark this year.

Dowson for me is the annoying decision (plus Clark being named in the Saxons).

Ozzy3213 wrote:Modern rugby is all about the gainline and Parling loses out there in defence and attack. He rarely carries over the gainline, and although yes he makes a lot of tackles, I don't see him ever knocking the ball carrier back, it always seems to be they get over the gainline and he hauls them down after they've made a few yards with him clinging on.

He seemed to find it easy enough to get over the gainline against London Irish at the Mad Stad last season...

You have to feel for Billy Twelvetress, the internets favourite solution to Englands backs problem.
If only hed been garaunteed a starting place at 12 for Tigers.....

He must really hate Allen.


On a more serious note its a disgrace that Callum Clark has been picked in the saxons squad. Whilst theres a few people with "behavourial challenges" in the senior squad ( Care, Stevens, Tuilagi, Lawes, Brown, Hartley, Marler, Assclown, Corbiserio) this guy is another level. Doesnt really fit with Lancasters zero tolerance policy to put him in whislt hes still under a ban for arguably the worst single act of violence ever perpetrated in a professional rugby game.

Not that the Saxons means much anymore of course, I thought theyd dropped the whole concept anyway, they dont have any games lines up for them.

Looks to me like he's using the Saxons as 'player storage'. Merely an extension of the main EPS. If you view the EPS and Saxons as entirely interchangeable it doesn't look too bad really. Weel not TOO bad!

2. For Parling to be chosen, given he adds nothing to ENG outside of the lineout... he needs to be dominant.. at the moment he is being dominated..... by guys who started their first ever super rugby games.... 3 months earlier

Kruger who had a couple of years worth of AP experience and who missed a season through injury is not some green newbie. He's a very good young lineout operator. Pretty sure Etzbeth's coach said he saw him as an increasingly good lineout option as well. Fact of the matter is Parling was in trouble from the first test. Kruger is no mug and closed off the back of the lineout with Spies making Robshaw completely obsolete. Eztbeth took on Botha at the front with the Saffa pack taking the big man either backwards or into touch from the front of the lineout. That only left Parling and Johnson in the middle, Johnson is frankly not an international lineout options and so Kruger pulled a man marking job on Parling in the middle of the lineout.

Parling is by some way the best lineout option England have available to them but he really does need some options in the lineout, at least one more international class option be it Wood, Croft or even Palmer (who helped out in the last test).

Its strange about haskell...he was called straight back for the tour...played a blinder in the test he played in....and then is dropped to the Saxons....

Maybe they're trying to manage him abit...who knows...

Geordie, when does he rock up to Wasps? If it's not until November then maybe he'll be missing the AIs and taking a well earned rest period.

LondonTiger wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:I am very suprised to see Matt Stevens in there.

It was part of the deal with Sarries to allow Andy Farrell to join. Sarries don't want Stevens either


Really it highlights the paucity at TH - with Lancaster waiting to see whether Henry thomas can step up to the mark this year.

Dowson for me is the annoying decision (plus Clark being named in the Saxons).

Very true. Why would Saracens or England want Stevens? He's been awful this season including the RWC.I feel a little sorry for him that his fall has been so emphatic - the worrying thing is the squad spot will make him think he's still good.Stevens could well struggle to get game time at Sarries next season - Rhys Gill, Mako Vunipola and even Jared Saunders will push him at loosehead, the two Italians at tighthead - Lorenzo Romano and Carlos Nieto.


In regards to the rest of the squad - I definitely wouldn't have picked Dowson. I wouldn't have been aggrieved if Botha had been dropped but I can see why he kept him.

I would not have picked Strettle or Wigglesworth for the Saxons though I would have swapped two Sarries boys in - Spencer and Short in.

The two squads could have been worse.

Abendanon seems to be a permanent Saxons player - does anyone think he'll ever jump the very long full back queue to make it to the top?

beshocked wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:I am very suprised to see Matt Stevens in there.

It was part of the deal with Sarries to allow Andy Farrell to join. Sarries don't want Stevens either


Really it highlights the paucity at TH - with Lancaster waiting to see whether Henry thomas can step up to the mark this year.

Dowson for me is the annoying decision (plus Clark being named in the Saxons).

Very true. Why would Saracens or England want Stevens? He's been awful this season including the RWC.I feel a little sorry for him that his fall has been so emphatic - the worrying thing is the squad spot will make him think he's still good.Stevens could well struggle to get game time at Sarries next season - Rhys Gill, Mako Vunipola and even Jared Saunders will push him at loosehead, the two Italians at tighthead - Lorenzo Romano and Carlos Nieto.


In regards to the rest of the squad - I definitely wouldn't have picked Dowson. I wouldn't have been aggrieved if Botha had been dropped but I can see why he kept him.

I would not have picked Strettle or Wigglesworth for the Saxons though I would have swapped two Sarries boys in - Spencer and Short in.

The two squads could have been worse.

Abendanon seems to be a permanent Saxons player - does anyone think he'll ever jump the very long full back queue to make it to the top?

I think we Stevens its a case of a complete lack of faith in anyone who can cover for Cole, so theyve gone with the experienced guy who covers both sides.

One note on all of this...these are the guys who are fomraly on Senior EPS contracts. But didnt Lancaster say he wasnt bothering to run two fully separate squads anymore and would really be looking at 40something players as his squad? Or was that just for the summer tours? WTF is happening to the Saxons? They dont even have a coach do they?
Apparently both squads will train together to begin with.

Abendanon seems to be a permanent Saxons player - does anyone think he'll ever jump the very long full back queue to make it to the top?

Short answer Beschocked? No. Good at the counter attack and pacey when coming into the line but he just doesn't have the tactical footballing skills of Alex Goode (who looked very good on his test debut), the power and defensive steel of Brown (who also impressed on his debut) and the explosive Foden who is most similar to Abendanon is just far more consistent. Add in that Abendanon is the eldest of the four of them and that young Rob Miller is coming through offering a similar skill set to Goode but with the explosive counter attacking of Abendanon, if he ups his defence Abendanon will be even further down the pecking order.

PDJ was the other utility prop option and he hasnt exactly been pulling up trees!

There seems to be plenty of LH's available but very few TH's. Or LH's that can adequately cover.

David Wilson in the Saxons! No comment.

To be fair to Wilson I can't actually remember him putting in a bad performance for England. I can't remember a good one either but he has always been solid and dependable when we've needed him (on both sides of the scrum).

Quarrybends wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:Modern rugby is all about the gainline and Parling loses out there in defence and attack. He rarely carries over the gainline, and although yes he makes a lot of tackles, I don't see him ever knocking the ball carrier back, it always seems to be they get over the gainline and he hauls them down after they've made a few yards with him clinging on.

He seemed to find it easy enough to get over the gainline against London Irish at the Mad Stad last season...

Thanks for the input chief. Let me know when you've something constructive to add and we can have a decent chat about it. Just to add, he actually carried 6 times for 7 metres in that game, so kind of highlights my point about his effectiveness in that regard brilliantly, so thanks for that.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:You have to feel for Billy Twelvetress, the internets favourite solution to Englands backs problem.
If only hed been garaunteed a starting place at 12 for Tigers.....

He must really hate Allen.


On a more serious note its a disgrace that Callum Clark has been picked in the saxons squad. Whilst theres a few people with "behavourial challenges" in the senior squad ( Care, Stevens, Tuilagi, Lawes, Brown, Hartley, Marler, Assclown, Corbiserio) this guy is another level. Doesnt really fit with Lancasters zero tolerance policy to put him in whislt hes still under a ban for arguably the worst single act of violence ever perpetrated in a professional rugby game.

Not that the Saxons means much anymore of course, I thought theyd dropped the whole concept anyway, they dont have any games lines up for them.

Corbisiero??? Really?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

2. For Parling to be chosen, given he adds nothing to ENG outside of the lineout... he needs to be dominant.. at the moment he is being dominated..... by guys who started their first ever super rugby games.... 3 months earlier

Kruger who had a couple of years worth of AP experience and who missed a season through injury is not some green newbie. He's a very good young lineout operator. Pretty sure Etzbeth's coach said he saw him as an increasingly good lineout option as well. Fact of the matter is Parling was in trouble from the first test. Kruger is no mug and closed off the back of the lineout with Spies making Robshaw completely obsolete. Eztbeth took on Botha at the front with the Saffa pack taking the big man either backwards or into touch from the front of the lineout. That only left Parling and Johnson in the middle, Johnson is frankly not an international lineout option and so Kruger pulled a man marking job on Parling in the middle of the lineout.

Parling is by some way the best lineout option England have available to them but he really does need some options in the lineout, at least one more international class option be it Wood, Croft or even Palmer (who helped out in the last test).

Its strange about haskell...he was called straight back for the tour...played a blinder in the test he played in....and then is dropped to the Saxons....

Maybe they're trying to manage him abit...who knows...

Geordie, when does he rock up to Wasps? If it's not until November then maybe he'll be missing the AIs and taking a well earned rest period.

Sam, disagree with you there (not surprisingly perhaps!):

First test: Johnson 4 lineouts taken/0 missed - Botha 1/0, Parling 3/1, Morgan 1/0
Second test: Johnson 2/0 - Botha 2/0, Parling 5/0, Robshaw 3/0
Third test: Johnson 2/0 - Palmer 2/0, Parling 3/1

So after Parling, TJ was England's next best lineout operator, arguably under-utilised tho!

Also, Haskell is back mid-August, I believe

Baring one or two players it is refreshingly clear that SL is building a squad to compete well at the next RWC. There is a lot of youth that he obviously wants to give the opportunity for them to grow and develop in to world beaters over the next 3 years. Some will fall be the wayside and others may well be brought in from outside the EPS. I think he is doing a brilliant job right now. I just hope he gets it right for the next few years..

So after Parling, TJ was England's next best lineout operator, arguably under-utilised tho!

He was the second best option England had and was used primarily on attack ball with Parling using himself as the dummy option I seem to remember. Wouldn't say he was in the Croft or Wood class though. Parling's statistics don't look great but I'm pretty sure he called the ball to himself in situations where England were under the most pressure. Ideally a Tom Croft weighs little 6 and a half foot would be used in those situations.

I unlike several here have no problem with TJ making the EPS but I doubt whether he'll be any more than an international stop gap (he's not the only one either).

Thanks for the input chief. Let me know when you've something constructive to add and we can have a decent chat about it. Just to add, he actually carried 6 times for 7 metres in that game, so kind of highlights my point about his effectiveness in that regard brilliantly, so thanks for that.

He's a second row he's supposed to be in the coal face not galavanting around with the backs. We've got a backrow able to do the carrying at Tigers with Ayerza to boot. The other half of the pack are there to crash it up and secure the ball.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

So after Parling, TJ was England's next best lineout operator, arguably under-utilised tho!

He was the second best option England had and was used primarily on attack ball with Parling using himself as the dummy option I seem to remember. Wouldn't say he was in the Croft or Wood class though. Parling's statistics don't look great but I'm pretty sure he called the ball to himself in situations where England were under the most pressure. Ideally a Tom Croft weighs little 6 and a half foot would be used in those situations.

I unlike several here have no problem with TJ making the EPS but I doubt whether he'll be any more than an international stop gap (he's not the only one either).

Thanks for the input chief. Let me know when you've something constructive to add and we can have a decent chat about it. Just to add, he actually carried 6 times for 7 metres in that game, so kind of highlights my point about his effectiveness in that regard brilliantly, so thanks for that.

He's a second row he's supposed to be in the coal face not galavanting around with the backs. We've got a backrow able to do the carrying at Tigers with Ayerza to boot. The other half of the pack are there to crash it up and secure the ball.

Sam, wouldn't disagree with you about TJ's prospects in general, being realistic, and as much as I totally agree with you about Croft in the lineout, I'm not sure how Wood is so heavily lauded as a lineout operator at this level?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

So after Parling, TJ was England's next best lineout operator, arguably under-utilised tho!

He was the second best option England had and was used primarily on attack ball with Parling using himself as the dummy option I seem to remember. Wouldn't say he was in the Croft or Wood class though. Parling's statistics don't look great but I'm pretty sure he called the ball to himself in situations where England were under the most pressure. Ideally a Tom Croft weighs little 6 and a half foot would be used in those situations.

I unlike several here have no problem with TJ making the EPS but I doubt whether he'll be any more than an international stop gap (he's not the only one either).

Thanks for the input chief. Let me know when you've something constructive to add and we can have a decent chat about it. Just to add, he actually carried 6 times for 7 metres in that game, so kind of highlights my point about his effectiveness in that regard brilliantly, so thanks for that.

He's a second row he's supposed to be in the coal face not galavanting around with the backs. We've got a backrow able to do the carrying at Tigers with Ayerza to boot. The other half of the pack are there to crash it up and secure the ball.

Sam, I am not disputing what Tigers have or don't have as it is largely irrelevant to this discussion mate, was merely illustrating what nonsense the comment about Parling's performance against London Irish was.

It showed you how thin our options were that TJ was basically used as secondary option. At just over 6ft he's a decent option but not anywhere near the class of Croft, Wood etc in the set piece.

I do like TJ hes a real battler, we have numerous better options when theyre fit but I've no issue with TJ being around the squad.

I am afraid I take all the stats sites with a huge pinch of salt. After all most state that Parling was unsuccessful at stealing any SA ball - yet I quite clearly saw him pinch one at the front just after Hartley was sinbinned.

I have a nagging feeling that Parling made a clear line break at the madj for about 30 yards, so his other carries must have seen him knocked back a long way.

I do not believe Parling to be international class - though i would level that accusation at many in the EPS. Is he better than the alternatives? Well 606 would disagree as there is a general love in with Attwood (guilty) and Garvey (I am in the minority on here to not rate him). However compared to thoise in the squad he is worthy.

I do not believe Parling to be international class - though i would level that accusation at many in the EPS. Is he better than the alternatives? Well 606 would disagree as there is a general love in with Attwood (guilty) and Garvey (I am in the minority on here to not rate him). However compared to thoise in the squad he is worthy

Let's be honest Parling is a good stop gap in terms of a lineout leader until Kitchener or A N Other progress enough to take the shirt off of him. The big issue is the more meaty partner or enforcer England need to play alongside him. Lawes, Attwood, Garvey, Deacon etc... there's a long list but no one making themselves a definite selection.

LondonTiger wrote:I am afraid I take all the stats sites with a huge pinch of salt. After all most state that Parling was unsuccessful at stealing any SA ball - yet I quite clearly saw him pinch one at the front just after Hartley was sinbinned.

I have a nagging feeling that Parling made a clear line break at the madj for about 30 yards, so his other carries must have seen him knocked back a long way.

I do not believe Parling to be international class - though i would level that accusation at many in the EPS. Is he better than the alternatives? Well 606 would disagree as there is a general love in with Attwood (guilty) and Garvey (I am in the minority on here to not rate him). However compared to thoise in the squad he is worthy.

Let's be honest. Most of our options at lock are mediocre as things stand. Certainly compared to a Ben Kay,Simon Shaw or Martin Johnson in their prime.Garvey made a very good case in the first half of the season but after Christmas what has he done at lock? I don't quite understand the Attwood hype - personally I think it's just clutching at straws - a hope that someone might step into the enforcer role badly needed by England.

I find it funny that Borthwick was criticised for not being a ball carrier, he's still one of the best lineout operators around but if others are just as ineffectual such as Parling it's ok. Btw no I am not asking for a Borthwick recall though I actually think he's better than most of the options available -at least he can dominate the lineout (when he's fully fit of course).

LI had an injury/suspension crisis in the backrow last season, so Garvey was called on to play at six for quite a few games. Hopefully he'll get a decent run of games this season and get his chance.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:It showed you how thin our options were that TJ was basically used as secondary option. At just over 6ft he's a decent option but not anywhere near the class of Croft, Wood etc in the set piece.

I do like TJ hes a real battler, we have numerous better options when theyre fit but I've no issue with TJ being around the squad.

Sgt_P, not sure how you can claim that Wood is better in the set piece than TJ (6'2" vs Wood's 6'3") - from his 9 international caps, Wood has shown nothing spectacular in the lineout - his best is 2 taken/0 missed, but most are 1/0 or 1/1 - I don't think he is considered to be a lineout option at international level. Not sure how you differentiate their scrummaging ability either tbh?

I'm not sure why people are making Garvey/Parling comparisons to be honest as one is a definite 4 and the other a definite 5, so wouldn't be competing for a shirt anyway.

Wood is a much better option than TJ in the lineout for me, can't really see a comparison tbh.

TJ was used more in desperation as we had no other options. Pretty sure Wood lined up with a pack including Croft, Lawes, Palmer so would be needed less (may be wrong)

Agree Ozzie, Garvey & Parling are very different locks.

I'm in the unconvinced camp with Garvey also, not seen anything to suggest he'll make the step up.

Ozzy3213 they are competing at lock. The locks are an unit. Potentially they could work together but then again they could obviously be competing vs one another.

If for example Croft is the 6, a pure lineout man is less important. Or alternatively a general decent all round lock will emerge.

Mawhis if Garvey wants to be a lock he has to play there. Simple as that.

If for example Croft is the 6, a pure lineout man is less important. Or alternatively a general decent all round lock will emerge

I'd have to disagree with that Beshocked, Croft is a top class international lineout jumper but he isn't good at calling a lineout or do trying to take apart the opposition. He's a lineout weapon but like all weapons he is only as good as the man that wields him. Parling utilises him very well for Tigers just as Kay did before him.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Wood is a much better option than TJ in the lineout for me, can't really see a comparison tbh.

TJ was used more in desperation as we had no other options. Pretty sure Wood lined up with a pack including Croft, Lawes, Palmer so would be needed less (may be wrong)

Agree Ozzie, Garvey & Parling are very different locks.

I'm in the unconvinced camp with Garvey also, not seen anything to suggest he'll make the step up.

That is almost certainly true, Sgt_P, that Wood was playing alongside far more lineout options, but overall I guess we'll have to agree to differ. TJ is a key lineout operator for Exe, his figures have been excellent for our two seasons in the prem. I'll say no more

Yea no problems fella, all about options.

Croft was in the side when our lineout was struggling (Italy, Scotland). Parling was brought into the side to correct this and provide a threat which he did.