England EPS

First topic message reminder :

Ok, the tour is over. The EPS for the 2012/13 season will be announced in early July (I think). It's named completely afresh and can have 5 changes in Jan 13 for the 6 nations. Who would be in you 32?

Injured players can be replaced no problem.

Actual EPS

Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers)
Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester)
Tom Palmer (London Wasps)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Matt Stevens (Saracens)
Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers)
Rob Webber (Bath)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
Charlie Sharples (Gloucester)
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Saxons

Nathan Catt (Bath)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Louis Deacon (Leicester Tigers)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints)
Carl Fearns (Bath)
James Gaskell (Sale Sharks)
Jamie Gibson (London Irish)
Joe Gray (Harlequins)
James Haskell (London Wasps)
Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
Matt Mullan (Worcester Warriors)
David Paice (London Irish)
George Robson (Harlequins)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)
David Wilson (Bath)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Nick Abendanon (Bath)
Miles Benjamin (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Biggs (Bath)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
George Lowe (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester)
Rob Miller (Sale Sharks)
Ugo Monye (Harlequins)
Joe Simpson (London Wasps)
David Strettle (Saracens)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester)
Christian Wade (London Wasps)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens).

And our top 2 Scrum halves are 10s.

Actually anyone remember England Wales 2010?
Armitage Monye Cueto Tait Flood Wilko Care
4 starting capped fullbacks, 2 starting capped FHs. Entire Back division of kickers.

The game where Gatland said they were aiming to have to kick the ball to England

and our emerging hooker is a centre!!!!

And our 8 used to be in star wars

The current 12 is a 13 who started on the wing for his club (didnt Youngs first get on the field for England on the wing too?), and Barrit used to be a 10 too didnt he?
Haskell has played everywhere in the backrow, Croft started with the saxons as a second row, Robshaw is a 6, and Hartley is a Dikhead.

Brown
Tait
Armitage
Goode
May
Miller
Foden

Try kicking to that backline

The current 12 is a 13 who started on the wing for his club (didnt Youngs first get on the field for England on the wing too?),

Manu only played wing in the academy, he has never started a first team game there.

Youngs, hmm he has played wing once for England and it was in the 6N but I'm struggling to remember if it was before or after the tour to Aus.

and our emerging hooker is a centre!!!!

Capped at England under 20 level as an IC and played for the England 7s.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

The current 12 is a 13 who started on the wing for his club (didnt Youngs first get on the field for England on the wing too?),

Manu only played wing in the academy, he has never started a first team game there.

Youngs, hmm he has played wing once for England and it was in the 6N but I'm struggling to remember if it was before or after the tour to Aus.
.

Sam you keep claiming that Manu has never started a first team game on the wing, when he has on at least 2 occasions. Its no biggie but I have seen you mention it on multiple occasions and I had to bring it up. I can remember against Newcastle and Quins 2 seasons ago.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

The current 12 is a 13 who started on the wing for his club (didnt Youngs first get on the field for England on the wing too?),

Manu only played wing in the academy, he has never started a first team game there.

Youngs, hmm he has played wing once for England and it was in the 6N but I'm struggling to remember if it was before or after the tour to Aus.

and our emerging hooker is a centre!!!!

Capped at England under 20 level as an IC and played for the England 7s.

I think Youngs debuted on the wing, coming on for an injury. I want to say on for Monye against Scotland in the 2010 drawn game. I'll check, but I think I remember the game because I cracked a rib that day (therefore wasn't drinking), and had a bet on with my half-Scottish captain about the result of the game.

Yep, it was: http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/matchcentre/16298.php

So in the summer tour squad we have 4 scrum halves, 7 fly halves,9 centers, 8 wings, 4 fullbacks
Hmm.


Another thing that struck me. Remember when Lancaster said unkind things about Martin Johnson over looking his Saxons for the world cup? How many of that summer squad does he actually pick now.... Goode through injuries, Brown, probably wouldve played Trinder had he not got injured, gave Sharples a go, tried and dropped JTH, Johnson but only through injuries. Injuries aside how many would make Lancasters 30?
Given the number of retirements making spots available and the massive hissy fit he had youd think Lancaster wouldve had more faith in his chaps. Not a single one of those "overlooked" guys has been a first choice Lancaster player, (although you could make a case that brown was for the second test).
He even selected the fat old kiwi ahead of his old captain Luke "not bitter much" Narraway
Just a thing that crossed my mind.


And another thing :

Stuart 'Inconsistent Lancaster wrote:we’ve got the likes of George Ford and these younger lads who are coming through now. Why wouldn’t we take them to South Africa

I'll tell you why not Stuart, because you picked Hodgson ahead of him. Still theres plenty of room for this young English talent behind Waldroms immense bulk.

Cumbrian wrote:

How do you rate Clifford? I'm being harsh, but he seemed a little bit of a show pony in the U20's SN and JWC. He seemed really good at following breaks and finishing them off, but he didn't seem to make too many himself or do enough of the grunt work.

I thought he looked ok in the 6 Nations. I think he's only 18 so has plenty of time to improve. Plenty of recent England age group 8s have actually settled in other backrow positions.

Triangulation wrote:Left field and thinking out loud now....

We have 3 excellent fullbacks - foden, brown and goode.

One of them in goode can play 10 because he has excellent footballing skills.

Should we ask Saracens (or another club) to look at developing him as a 12? Our longstanding problem position.

Or is it 36 or bust?

I've wanted Sarries to give Goode a go in the line for ages (goodness knows they need some creativity). I think you could give him a go at 10, 12 or 13.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:So in the summer tour squad we have 4 scrum halves, 7 fly halves,9 centers, 8 wings, 4 fullbacks
Hmm.


Another thing that struck me. Remember when Lancaster said unkind things about Martin Johnson over looking his Saxons for the world cup? How many of that summer squad does he actually pick now....

And another thing :

Stuart 'Inconsistent Lancaster wrote:we’ve got the likes of George Ford and these younger lads who are coming through now. Why wouldn’t we take them to South Africa

I'll tell you why not Stuart, because you picked Hodgson ahead of him. Still theres plenty of room for this young English talent behind Waldroms immense bulk.

Can you supply a link to SL's unkind things about MJ and the WC?

And (as you well know) he didn't take Ford to SA because he agreed with Leicester it was better to give him the summer off to work on his conditioning. Instead England ended up with what I'd imagine is possibly their youngest every 10, 12, 13 combo in the 3rd Test. I think I'm right in saying Tom Youngs started a game at Hooker for England before he's done so for Tigers. Accusing SL of not giving young players opportunities is verging on the bizarre.

Cole, Corbs, Marler, Stevens, Thomas
Hartley, Webber, Gray
Lawes, Launchbury, Garvey, Palmer/Parling
Croft, Robshaw, Haskell, Wood/Armitage
Morgan, Waldrom/Crane

Youngs, Care
Flood, Cipriani/Ford
Tuilagi, JJ, Barritt, Lowe/Allen
Ashton, May, Wade, Foden, Goode,Brown

Keep an eye on the form of:

Wilson, M. Vunipola
Youngs, George, Whitehead
Attwood, Kitchener, Deacon, Day
Gibson, Kvesic, Fearns
Gray

Dickson, Simpson
Burns
JTH, Twelvetrees, Daly, Farrell
Banahan, Miller, JSD,Abendanon, Benjamin

Triangulation wrote:Left field and thinking out loud now....


Should we ask Saracens (or another club) to look at developing him as a 12? Our longstanding problem position.

Or is it 36 or bust?

I'm sure it's been said before: "why have one 12 when you can have three?"

There was a thread here before the 6N about Twelvetrees versus Farrell. IIRC the conclusion was that Twelvetrees is not yet consistent enough. But he could be a useful person to take long range penalties.

when is the damned thing going to be named?

How many players do we expect London Welsh to contribute?

PSW

are you angry about london welsh?

can i ask - surely they arent going to be all non eqps? all welsh?

unlikley. more likely to be similar to london irish who provide the odd one or two

Triangulation wrote:PSW

are you angry about london welsh?

can i ask - surely they arent going to be all non eqps? all welsh?

unlikley. more likely to be similar to london irish who provide the odd one or two

What like Tom Voyce, Henson and some Canadian guy? Certainly noone from their existing squad.

I suspect the answer will be more like the odd "none or none".

Its not so much an anger about LW themselves just pointing out what pointless leeches they are not only on the premiership clubs who are desperately struggling for profitability as it is, but the RFU too without putting anything into the national set up. At least Newcastle had the decency to act as a feeder club for Tigers.

Indeed, but then they won't get any of the extra funding that other clubs receive from the RFU for fielding a certain amount of English players.

Is the EPS announcement today?

Chjw131 wrote:Indeed, but then they won't get any of the extra funding that other clubs receive from the RFU for fielding a certain amount of English players.

Is the EPS announcement today?

Do not say that if you dont mean it. Some of us are really hanging out for this.

It is the next statement to the world by England to say....

" We are gunning for you all and we are serious about winning our way to no.1 AND winning the RWC15"

Here we go

http://www.rfu.com/news/2012/july/newsarticles/050712_eps_announcement

ENGLAND ELITE PLAYER SQUAD (32)

FORWARDS (17)
Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers)
Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Tom Palmer (London Wasps)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Matt Stevens (Saracens)
Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

BACKS (15)
Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby)
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

ENGLAND SAXONS EPS (32)

FORWARDS (18)
Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Louis Deacon (Leicester Tigers)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints)
Carl Fearns (Bath Rugby)
James Gaskell (Sale Sharks)
Jamie Gibson (London Irish)
Joe Gray (Harlequins)
James Haskell (London Wasps)
Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
Matt Mullan (Worcester Warriors)
David Paice (London Irish)
George Robson (Harlequins)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

BACKS (14)
Nick Abendanon (Bath Rugby)
Miles Benjamin (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Biggs (Bath Rugby)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
George Lowe (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Rob Miller (Sale Sharks)
Ugo Monye (Harlequins)
Joe Simpson (London Wasps)
David Strettle (Saracens)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Christian Wade (London Wasps)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)

F@ck. Was my first thought. It's a bit curate's eggish (good in parts).

What a crock of shoite.

Space Invaders:

Botha, Dowson, Stevens
Allen (not backed by coaches not dropped either)
Barritt

Not at all convinced about Botha, Parling and Palmer as the options collectively for the srow either. Palmer is the best of the 3.

Mauritz Botha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WTF!!!! Matt Stevens!!!!!! Double WTF!!!!

Oh sorry forgot Webber as well!


arggggggggggggggh

Is the ongoing selection of second rate lightweight second rows becoming Lancaster's vanity/singature move/blind spot??!?!?!?!?!

Dowson in and Haskell out is just a rugby crime. Is SL still in a spanking mode?

Here are my problems in the EPS:

M Botha, P Dowson, M Stevens, T Waldroum, O Farrell, J Turner-Hall, A Goode (purely because there's only one FH option in T Flood, and i'd rather 3 FH than 3 FB)

They should be replaced, in my opinion with:

L Deacon, J Haskell, C Fearns, P Doran-Jones, G Ford, G Lowe and F Burns

I'm struggling here to fathom, with a complete free choice this time around why there aren't some serious changes in areas of weakness. Specifically Second Row, where the same gash locks are selected.

Palmer and Deacon are the only vaguely decent options of the entire 64. There is also no planning for a Fly Half that can actually operate effectively as a FH, aside from Toby Flood.

I'm worried. Really quite worried that Lancaster is changing things piecemeal and with little or no vision for what he wants a team to look like. The need for Dowson, Hodgson and Mears to help the young ones has no gone, so why are Dowson, Botha and Waldroum actually there?!

Chjw131 wrote:Here are my problems in the EPS:

M Botha, P Dowson, M Stevens, T Waldroum, O Farrell, J Turner-Hall, A Goode (purely because there's only one FH option in T Flood, and i'd rather 3 FH than 3 FB)

They should be replaced, in my opinion with:

L Deacon, J Haskell, C Fearns, P Doran-Jones, G Ford, G Lowe and F Burns

You forgot Webber. Youngs for Webber and im agreed with you entirely.

As usual we shall have to wait for injuries to be our best selector come the AIs. Not wishing for injuries just hoping the cream can rise to the top and that Lancaster will rediscover his selection aggots particularly when faced with straight shoot outs between never-was-good enough options and young thrusters.

Can we also note here that we have forsaken one of our best full backs in Ben Foden and converted him to a wing. The only wing options in the squad are Chris Ashton and Charlie Sharples, who I believe has played once.

Goode at FB is settled then.

...and Haskell not Fearns for Dowson.

Just noticed Calum Clarke in the Saxons. Really? On a purely rugby basis what has he done to get included? No Garvey or Atwood anywhere in the 64. Feckin' rubbish! Going to go through my family tree and see if i can dig out some Scottish relatives.

Haskell and Fearns for Dowson and Waldroum was my selection.

How come there are 5 wings in the Saxons and only 2 in the EPS? Mental.

This Garvey & Attwood thing is getting a bit spookey now. I guess, along with Haskell, they failed the new PC compliance exam SL has installed.

Can we console oiurselves thus......

Come the AIs there will be many injuries etc and Lancaster will be able to do whatever he wants re selection. So we might still see a half decent England side selected.

Or is that too optimistic?

Am i missing the bigger point that our head coach is showing worrying selection issues now and in terms of where he wants to take us ?

Barney McGrew did it wrote:This Garvey & Attwood thing is getting a bit spookey now. I guess, along with Haskell, they failed the new PC compliance exam SL has installed.

SL doesnt like tugs

Oh hang on Clarke is in the Saxons.....

Barney McGrew did it wrote:This Garvey & Attwood thing is getting a bit spookey now. I guess, along with Haskell, they failed the new PC compliance exam SL has installed.

It is very weird now. Not even in the Saxons. What have they done? Bummed his favourite pet?

Triangulation wrote:Is the ongoing selection of second rate lightweight second rows becoming Lancaster's vanity/singature move/blind spot??!?!?!?!?!

Well is it?

Oh dear

Triangulation wrote:

Triangulation wrote:Is the ongoing selection of second rate lightweight second rows becoming Lancaster's vanity/singature move/blind spot??!?!?!?!?!

Well is it?

Why ask us? We're just as dumbfounded as you are mate!

Hugely disappointing!

This continues the glaring problem that has dogged every England Manager for years...their selection policies are Crap!!!!

Yes we can move between the two sqauds but...just a few:

Matt Stevens come on man!

James Haskell - Saxons!!!!! FFS

Tom Wood? Is he even gonna be playing for Saints come the AI's after his inury.

No Garvey!!!! 606 will not be happy

A lot of this was expected TBH.

I’m pleased for Alex Goode, the lad looks to have the tools to fit into international rugby beautifully.

Jon Joseph needs to be given more time.

What is the point of Matt Stevens? They are having an extra prop on the bench next year, so we don’t need someone to cover both positions.

I’m a bit disappointed for Youngs, but I think it was the right call. A hooker needs to be able to hit his man in the lineout first and foremost to my mind.

Disappointed to see Calum Clarke still in the Saxons, that lad needs to go away and have a look himself.

A bit disappointed by the second rowers, what is the point of having Louis Deacon in the Saxons? Everybody knows what he can do. For me, he is either in the first team squad or not at all. With 64 places up for grabs, I find it a bit perturbing that a place could not be found for either Attwood or Garvey.

Pleased to see Kvesic get a place in the Saxons, hopefully he will start to nail down a first choice position at Worcester. Same with Henry Thomas, it’s an impressive rise for the young Prop. What depth we could have in the future in the propping positions.

I just want to cry now. What is Lancaster doing?

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:Here we go



ENGLAND ELITE PLAYER SQUAD (32)

FORWARDS (17)
Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers)
Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Tom Palmer (London Wasps)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Matt Stevens (Saracens)
Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

BACKS (15)
Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby)
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

ENGLAND SAXONS EPS (32)

FORWARDS (18)
Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Louis Deacon (Leicester Tigers)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints)
Carl Fearns (Bath Rugby)
James Gaskell (Sale Sharks)
Jamie Gibson (London Irish)
Joe Gray (Harlequins)
James Haskell (London Wasps)
Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
Matt Mullan (Worcester Warriors)
David Paice (London Irish)
George Robson (Harlequins)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

BACKS (14)
Nick Abendanon (Bath Rugby)
Miles Benjamin (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Biggs (Bath Rugby)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
George Lowe (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Rob Miller (Sale Sharks)
Ugo Monye (Harlequins)
Joe Simpson (London Wasps)
David Strettle (Saracens)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Christian Wade (London Wasps)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)

Mouritz Botha..

Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)

Really? What he did was worse than eye gouging. If he ever wears the Red Rose again it'll be too soon. I actually dislike him enough to support the opposition.

A couple of points....

1. I think that past coaches have deliberately selected injured players in their eps to give themselves a free hand i.e if when wood is not fit they can bring in a fly half or a wing for his spot. It is done deliberately; and

2. I have cracked the "Lancaster code" for second rows : pick lightweight second rows who cannot carry or tackle. That way every opponent we face concentrates all their efforts on trying to smash us through the middle. We are waiting for this and just absorb it, turn over ball through our pilfering back row and counter attack.......