England EPS

First topic message reminder :

Ok, the tour is over. The EPS for the 2012/13 season will be announced in early July (I think). It's named completely afresh and can have 5 changes in Jan 13 for the 6 nations. Who would be in you 32?

Injured players can be replaced no problem.

Actual EPS

Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers)
Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester)
Tom Palmer (London Wasps)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Matt Stevens (Saracens)
Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers)
Rob Webber (Bath)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
Charlie Sharples (Gloucester)
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Saxons

Nathan Catt (Bath)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Louis Deacon (Leicester Tigers)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints)
Carl Fearns (Bath)
James Gaskell (Sale Sharks)
Jamie Gibson (London Irish)
Joe Gray (Harlequins)
James Haskell (London Wasps)
Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
Matt Mullan (Worcester Warriors)
David Paice (London Irish)
George Robson (Harlequins)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)
David Wilson (Bath)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Nick Abendanon (Bath)
Miles Benjamin (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Biggs (Bath)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
George Lowe (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester)
Rob Miller (Sale Sharks)
Ugo Monye (Harlequins)
Joe Simpson (London Wasps)
David Strettle (Saracens)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester)
Christian Wade (London Wasps)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens).

it's a sucker punch move. a rope a dope tactic.

How can Delon Armitage and Danny Care be dropped entirely for what they did but Clarke reintroduced into the fold before, I think, his ban for disgusting acts on the field is even up?! I find myself strongly questioning Lancaster's character and he now comes across as a massive hypocrite. I will not support England if Clarke plays, that would disgrace our country until he can prove he isn't the same man who tried to break an opponent's arm whilst they were helpless in a ruck then smirked about it

Its fair to say something happened with garvey in that half time of the saxons game.

However no Attwood either...says alot really.

However.

Front row is becoming very settled and powerful
Parling & Lawes second row? Pretty good
Back row of Croft, Robshaw and Morgan offers much

I like the development of the pack..quick ball strong at the breakdown.

Lancaster is a kiwi sleeper. He is working for them and infiltrated us to the highest levels (rob andrew is also a kiwi mole). It looks as though he has just been "activated".

Wer'e neither one thing nor the other.

We cant out muscle Australia.
We cant live with the power or out manouvre the Boks
We cant cope with the pace of ABs
And worse yet we have no cohesive shape or plan as to how WE are going to play and no abiliy to impose OUR game (even if we had one which we dont)

We're dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooomed.

CJ....I think posters on here are clutching at straws with this Garvey half time thing. Could it be he's just not up to scratch?

I've never said Garvey should be in it!

It was me and you maybe right...who knows...

Wasn't at you, just a general comment. Seen quite a few posters state Garvey have annoyed management but this has zero press.

Haha.....sorry CJ, your fault Falcon!!!

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Wasn't at you, just a general comment. Seen quite a few posters state Garvey have annoyed management but this has zero press.

Yeah people need to put up or shut on this one. Or is the rugby press really that incompetent

OR is there some mental conspiracy of silence in which the press are complicit????



No Attwood upsets me.

FELLAS!

Lancaster is only allowed to make so many changes when the EPS is renewed so he couldn't ditch everyone and start afresh. Nore would this be good for the squad, remember a lot of these guys probably train well and contribute well in other ways.

Also we have about 8 injured players who allow him potentally 8 changes later in the season when he can pick on form.

Lastly moving players from Saxons to senior isn't hard, I expect to see Hask playing come the AI's.


What appals me is Callum Clark in the Saxons. The little Poopie

Agree on Attwood, that boy has talent. How Gaskell & Gibson stay at this level is beyond me.

No Will Welch GF!!!

Just 3 points (well actually far more, it would take too long though!):

Why do we need 3 inside centres?

3 fullbacks?

and 3 scrum halves?

Well he's a championship player mate...didnt expect him in the Saxons really...

Didn't you hear? Allen is a 13 now. Apparently...

Also Foden will play wing, for better or worse. Hopefully Goode is covering 10 too

Goode could really nail a 23 spot. Brings a much more rounded game than Foden who although a fantastic runner does nothing else than run straight.

Would everyone be generally happy with :

1 Corbs / Marler
2 Hartley
3 COle
4 Parling
5 Lawes
6 Croft
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

9 Youngs
10 Flood
11 Foden
12 Barritt
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Brown / Goode

Zander wrote:Just 3 points (well actually far more, it would take too long though!):

Why do we need 3 inside centres?

3 fullbacks?

and 3 scrum halves?

Zander!

NO! do your patriotic duty and list your wretched points in full.

Im feeling so let's get htis over with as quickly as possible.

do you know what?

I get the distinct feeling that head coaches in this country feel a duty to select guys out of misplaced loyalty or decency. a sort of give the dog a bone approach.

rewards for effort.

that kind of thing.

If true it stinks. It short changes all of us including those substandard players themselves.

Also from the press release:

There are also some exciting players just on the cusp of the squads such as Tom Homer, Charlie Matthews, Tom Heathcote and Elliot Daly, who we are really looking forward to seeing develop in the next 12 months and beyond.

Good to know who he's got on the radar.

OR

Maybe its just the players we dont rate..or coaches show loyalty ARE the better players

Stevens? Well PDJ didnt show particularly well did he.

Carpe Diem wrote:Just noticed Calum Clarke in the Saxons. Really? On a purely rugby basis what has he done to get included? No Garvey or Atwood anywhere in the 64. Feckin' rubbish! Going to go through my family tree and see if i can dig out some Scottish relatives.

You'd be very welcome, Carpe, but pls don't bring Clarke - pretty disgusting in my view that he's even considered for EPS or Saxons inclusion

Just watching 2nd midweek game....Youngs & May need to be in that 23

If I ever see Farrell & Homer in the same England side I'm going to support Wales instead

Come on then, Trianguloverreation: why are you so ? List your points of contention...

Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's a flawless selection, but I certainly managed to remain on my seat when reading it.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Would everyone be generally happy with :

1 Corbs / Marler
2 Hartley
3 COle
4 Parling
5 Lawes
6 Croft
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

9 Youngs
10 Flood
11 Foden
12 Barritt
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Brown / Goode

Yeah. From the EPS, assuming fitness, I'd actually pick-

1- Corbs
2- Hartley
3- Cole
4- Parling
5- Lawes
6- Croft - until Wood is fit then we have a dilemma!
7- Robshaw
8- Morgan
9- Youngs
10- Flood
11- Foden
12- Allen/Barritt
13- Manu
14- Ashton
15- Brown

Bench- Marler, Webber, Stevens , Botha/Palmer (really don't even care anymore), Johnson, Care, Goode, Joseph

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Carpe Diem wrote:Just noticed Calum Clarke in the Saxons. Really? On a purely rugby basis what has he done to get included? No Garvey or Atwood anywhere in the 64. Feckin' rubbish! Going to go through my family tree and see if i can dig out some Scottish relatives.

You'd be very welcome, Carpe, but pls don't bring Clarke - pretty disgusting in my view that he's even considered for EPS or Saxons inclusion

Can't believe he's even been considered tbh As. Really don't want that sort of player in an England shirt. Horrible decision!

Matthews needs to play some more AP first though

Just updated the original post

Carpe Diem wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Carpe Diem wrote:Just noticed Calum Clarke in the Saxons. Really? On a purely rugby basis what has he done to get included? No Garvey or Atwood anywhere in the 64. Feckin' rubbish! Going to go through my family tree and see if i can dig out some Scottish relatives.

You'd be very welcome, Carpe, but pls don't bring Clarke - pretty disgusting in my view that he's even considered for EPS or Saxons inclusion

Can't believe he's even been considered tbh As. Really don't want that sort of player in an England shirt. Horrible decision!

And this shows a little Hypocrisy from Lancaster ...over Care etc...and his zero tolerance on behaviour etc.

On a side note...how good a player is Clark....

I too will transfer allegiance to Scotland if Clarke pulls on the shirt anytime soon. I believe in 2nd chances, but come on, you've got to earn them. How p'ed off must Care and Armitage be feeling right no looking at Clarke's name on the list?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Carpe Diem wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Carpe Diem wrote:Just noticed Calum Clarke in the Saxons. Really? On a purely rugby basis what has he done to get included? No Garvey or Atwood anywhere in the 64. Feckin' rubbish! Going to go through my family tree and see if i can dig out some Scottish relatives.

You'd be very welcome, Carpe, but pls don't bring Clarke - pretty disgusting in my view that he's even considered for EPS or Saxons inclusion

Can't believe he's even been considered tbh As. Really don't want that sort of player in an England shirt. Horrible decision!

And this shows a little Hypocrisy from Lancaster ...over Care etc...and his zero tolerance on behaviour etc.

On a side note...how good a player is Clark....

Couldn't agree more GF

I asked a similar question further up. On a purely rugby basis what has he actually done to deserve a place?

Triangulation wrote:

Zander wrote:Just 3 points (well actually far more, it would take too long though!):

Why do we need 3 inside centres?

3 fullbacks?

and 3 scrum halves?

Zander!

NO! do your patriotic duty and list your wretched points in full.

Im feeling so let's get htis over with as quickly as possible.

Ok, here we go:

Stevens has no place in the EPS squad let alone the Saxons, especially with 2 props on the bench this Autumn.

Why do we need Botha, someone like Garvey or Attwood should have been in there. We can but try them.

We only have 2 flyhalves in the squad and one of them is more of a centre anyway.

Do we really need 3 scrumhalves, inside centres, fullbacks.

Haskell played well in the summer tour so why is he not in the EPS, I know he needs the rest but he doesn't have to play every game!

Webber really shouldn't be there. Maybe Youngs (if only he could throw!) or even Gray.

Why is neither Garvey nor Attwood even in the Saxons?

Oh, and even though I'm a Saints supporter, I feel what Clark did was unforgivable. How can he even be in the Saxons?

However, now that's over some positives:

Pleased for Goode. Goode at fullback and Foden on the wing could still work.

Glad Kvesic has made it into the Saxons. Also, Twelvetrees, Launchbury and Ford (although I wish he was in the EPS)

Front row is looking settled, England have good options in the backrow and depth at scrumhalf and fullback is good.

So overall, it could have been better but also could have been worse.

ChequeredJersey wrote:I too will transfer allegiance to Scotland if Clarke pulls on the shirt anytime soon. I believe in 2nd chances, but come on, you've got to earn them. How p'ed off must Care and Armitage be feeling right no looking at Clarke's name on the list?

So it's decided then, we'll become McCarpe Diem and McChequered Jersey if Clarke pulls on the red rose. You saw it here first folks!!

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Carpe Diem wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Carpe Diem wrote:Just noticed Calum Clarke in the Saxons. Really? On a purely rugby basis what has he done to get included? No Garvey or Atwood anywhere in the 64. Feckin' rubbish! Going to go through my family tree and see if i can dig out some Scottish relatives.

You'd be very welcome, Carpe, but pls don't bring Clarke - pretty disgusting in my view that he's even considered for EPS or Saxons inclusion

Can't believe he's even been considered tbh As. Really don't want that sort of player in an England shirt. Horrible decision!

And this shows a little Hypocrisy from Lancaster ...over Care etc...and his zero tolerance on behaviour etc.

On a side note...how good a player is Clark....

Not really. Care didn't get any sort of rugby ban for actions so SL imposed one. Clark was given, what was deemed, a suitable ban for his actions that he will complete. Nothing hypocritical in there. The issue is whether you think the Clark ban was sufficient. The panel accepted that he didn't mean to hurt Hawkins. Most of us think he did (from my limited position I can't see how he couldn't have meant it).

I think Clarke probably should have got a longer ban for what he did, but from Lancaster's perspective surely it's not within his remit to go around dishing out sanctions over and above those deemed to be appropriate by the RFU?

Also, I would like to poke my head above the parapet and say that - horrendous Hawkins incident and other momentary flashes of psychosis notwithstanding - I think Clarke is/was a cracking prospect. Whether or not his discipline/anger issues can ever be brought into check is another question, but let's not pretend he isn't a bloody good player.

.....in fact, he's a paradox in many ways as almost every coach who's worked with him has earmarked him as captaincy material - seems as if he's actually quite a disciplined player, but one who's got this bizarre track record of momentarily losing the plot!

Except in the back row we have lots of cracking players who don't commit imprisonable acts

ChequeredJersey wrote:Except in the back row we have lots of cracking players who don't commit imprisonable acts

+1

There are players who play on the edge, but i'm afraid for Clarke his game's so far over the edge, he's grazing his face on the ground below.

Does Northampton have an MMA team? he could be captain of that.

What style is he....

Adam wrote:I think Clarke probably should have got a longer ban for what he did, but from Lancaster's perspective surely it's not within his remit to go around dishing out sanctions over and above those deemed to be appropriate by the RFU?

Also, I would like to poke my head above the parapet and say that - horrendous Hawkins incident and other momentary flashes of psychosis notwithstanding - I think Clarke is/was a cracking prospect. Whether or not his discipline/anger issues can ever be brought into check is another question, but let's not pretend he isn't a bloody good player.

.....in fact, he's a paradox in many ways as almost every coach who's worked with him has earmarked him as captaincy material - seems as if he's actually quite a disciplined player, but one who's got this bizarre track record of momentarily losing the plot!

Nobody is pretending he's not a good player, but for me, he should be made to serve out his ban, then come back and show that he has learned from it for Saints before being included in any international squads. When Danny Care misbehaved off the field, Lancaster sent out a strong message to others by dealing with him robustly. Care went away, sorted himself out and played well and was welcomed back into the fold.

What message does Clark's selection send out to others? You can behave like a thug and get a long ban and walk straight back in. Brilliant, just what we want in the national set up!

Hmmm, Clarke's ban has involved a lot of off season, and therefore isn't much of a rugby ban at all. And SL has announced today that he's included in the Saxon's squad - whilst he's still banned. Sounds like mixed messages to me.

I think Clarke is/was a cracking prospect. Whether or not his discipline/anger issues can ever be brought into check is another question, but let's not pretend he isn't a bloody good player.

Adam, if he'd dished out a bit of retribution for Hawkins deliberatly slowing the ball down in the form of some serious stud marks (obviously not to the head or genitials) of even a punch I would have forgiven him but to drag someones arm back until they cry out and then drag it back a bit further until you feel it crack then to quickly walk of smirking. Well that's assault and exactly the kind of behaviour that gives rugby a bad name.

Wasn't at you, just a general comment. Seen quite a few posters state Garvey have annoyed management but this has zero press

Sgt I brought that up initially as a bit of a joke. It is very strange how he played half a game of rugby, one of the best games I've seen him play. Only to be subbed at half time and replaced by the lightweight Myall who offered nout and was then re-selected on the bench the following week with Slater replacing Garvey at lock. I can understand them wanting to have a look at Slater but Garvey played really well and I'd have thought they would have been looking to invlove him more not discard him completely.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

I think Clarke is/was a cracking prospect. Whether or not his discipline/anger issues can ever be brought into check is another question, but let's not pretend he isn't a bloody good player.

Adam, if he'd dished out a bit of retribution for Hawkins deliberatly slowing the ball down in the form of some serious stud marks (obviously not to the head or genitials) of even a punch I would have forgiven him but to drag someones arm back until they cry out and then drag it back a bit further until you feel it crack then to quickly walk of smirking. Well that's assault and exactly the kind of behaviour that gives rugby a bad name.

I don't disagree with you. Why wasn't he criminally charged, then? Or why didn't they at least ban him for the maximum possible term? I'm not being facetious - genuinely, why? There has to have been a different interpretation of the incident, surely? Because the punishment is staggeringly insufficient for the incident you describe.

ENGLAND ELITE PLAYER SQUAD (32)

FORWARDS (17)
Mouritz Botha (Saracens) - we are still waiting for someone better, trys hard though
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish) - Starting to look really good
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)- Same as Corbis
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers) - If he returns from injury in same form he is a real bonus
Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints) - Surprised, didnt do much on tour - Utility player.
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints) - 1st choice, competition not close
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs) - Made impact on tour, not a selection for the future though!
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints) - See Tom Croft comments
Joe Marler (Harlequins)- Good first outing, did well on tour still 2nd to Corbis though.
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby) - works on fitness and he will start.
Tom Palmer (London Wasps) - Good choice, has 1 or 2 seasons left.
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers) - Needs to step up from average tour.
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins) - Given (Capt)
Matt Stevens (Saracens)- WTF! Why still there.
Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers) - Deserves more after 3rd test showing.
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby) - havent seen since injury, still no.2 after Hartley
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints) - see comments on Croft and Lawes

BACKS (15)
Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers) - deserves another pop.
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)- OK, hopefully backup to Flood
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Alex Goode (Saracens)- deserves another chance after 3rd test showing
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish) - glad he gets longer to show his class
Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby)- unlucky to have missed out
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins) - still there! Hasnt done much to be in EPS.
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

ENGLAND SAXONS EPS (32)

FORWARDS (18)
Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints) - Hmmmm, should still be in wilderness
Louis Deacon (Leicester Tigers) - Hasnt played for a long time!
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints)
Carl Fearns (Bath Rugby)
James Gaskell (Sale Sharks)
Jamie Gibson (London Irish)
Joe Gray (Harlequins)
James Haskell (London Wasps) - interesting! Will have to work way into EPS.
Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
Matt Mullan (Worcester Warriors)
David Paice (London Irish) - would have prefered Jamie George.
George Robson (Harlequins)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby) - WTF - see comments on Stevens
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers) - continue development

BACKS (14)
Nick Abendanon (Bath Rugby)
Miles Benjamin (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Biggs (Bath Rugby) - deserves after last season
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)- lets see what he can really do.
George Lowe (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Rob Miller (Sale Sharks) - speed, great lines - cant see him getting ahead of Foden and Brown though.
Ugo Monye (Harlequins)
Joe Simpson (London Wasps)
David Strettle (Saracens) - may have found his level, did nothing really on tour.
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby) - give him a go
Christian Wade (London Wasps) - learns to tackle and a star of the future
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens) - solid but nothing special

Boring discussion. End it now please lads. Its soo boring reading one poster after another giving their layman's views on the whole thing after it has been dealt with by the appropriate authorities.

Back on topic.

Is Lancaster done now for 606? It's like half way through the honeymoon we've just gone "feck it!" slipped out of the matrimonial bed and ravished the nearest street hooker in sight in front of our new bride's eyes.

It would appear so unless there is a silent majority of Lancaster supporters.

I hate it when i see Deacon in the Saxons. Its a golden oppportunity to develope players not use it as a B side of old hacks.

What is the point?

yappysnap wrote:FELLAS!
Lancaster is only allowed to make so many changes when the EPS is renewed so he couldn't ditch everyone and start afresh. Nore would this be good for the squad, remember a lot of these guys probably train well and contribute well in other ways.

Is that true Yappy? I was under the impression that the summer EQP selection could be a fresh selection and only the January one was limited (to 5 swaps I believe)?

I don't think Lancaster's done at all. I personally like the guy, and what he has achieved so far.

Deacon I think is a good inclusion to be honest. He is missed when he's not playing, and does so much of the grunt work. His a big guy too, and is much more of a grafter than any of the other locks in the EPS.

On a side note- It's excellent to see Tom Wood's name on there. Amidst all the talk of him possibly having to retire, etc, I'm hoping that his inclusion is testament to the fact that his injury might be subsiding. Great news.

I am part of the silent majority of Lancaster supporters!!

I've got a couple of issues with this selection, but can't understand the big negative reaction, to be honest. In my view, Lancaster's in credit as a selector from his England tenure so far, so I'm prepared to keep the faith and wait and see who he actually selects in the Autumn (there is bound to be some shuffling of the pack before then). Again, failing to see the hugely offensive selections in here (notwithstanding, for some, Clarke).....I think it's easy to select a very unsurprising and pretty exciting XV from this, so I'm keeping my toys in the pram for the minute....

I thought that SL could pick a completely fresh set of squads too.
He is only restricted in the Christmas time changes. Tactical Swaps (not including injured players), in preparation for the 6N in Feb.