England v SA - KO 14:30 Sat 24th NOV at HQ - Match Thread/Build Up etc....

[HERSH]

First topic message reminder :

Feel free to discuss this game and any other aspect involving the England Rugby team good or bad as your opinions count and you won't be judged (by me) if you go against England, but do try to give a reason!

Please respect other posters opinions

Game 1: Eng v Fiji 54-12 World class performance.
Game 2: Eng v Aus 14-20 We was robbed, by ourselves.
Game 3: Eng v SA ??-??
Game 4: Eng v NZ ??-??

England team to face South Africa:

Alex Goode (Saracens, 4 caps);
Chris Ashton (Saracens, 27 caps),
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 15 caps),
Brad Barritt (Saracens, 9 caps),
Mike Brown (Harlequins, 9 caps);
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 52 caps),
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps);
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish, 16 caps),
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 2 caps),
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 33 caps),
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 2 caps),
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 10 caps),
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 11 caps),
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 10 caps),
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 7 caps).

Replacements: David Paice (London Irish, 4 caps), David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 21 caps), Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 2 caps), Mouritz Botha (Saracens, 9 caps), James Haskell (London Wasps, 43 caps), Danny Care (Harlequins, 35 caps), Owen Farrell (Saracens, 10 caps), Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 3 caps).


South Africa team:
Z Kirchner (Blue Bulls);
JP Pietersen (Sharks),
J de Jongh (Western Province),
J de Villiers (Western Province, captain),
F Hougaard (Blue Bulls);
P Lambie (Sharks),
R Pienaar (Ulster);
G Steenkamp (Toulouse),
A Strauss (Cheetahs),
J du Plessis (Sharks),
E Etzebeth (Western Province),
J Kruger (Blue Bulls),
F Louw (Bath),
W Alberts (Sharks),
D Vermeulen (Western Province).

Replacements: S Brits (Saracens), H van der Merwe (Leinster), P Cilliers (Western Province), F van der Merwe (Blue Bulls), M Coetzee (Sharks), E Jantjies (Golden Lions), J Taute (Golden Lions), L Mvovo (Sharks).

[Guest]

JJ has, so far, been capped twice. Both times against South Africa, in South Africa. It would be quite harsh to judge him based on only those 2 performances, given that they were both against one of the top 3 sides in the world. He may not have stood out, but he didn't make any huge mistakes as far as I'm aware. His defence, which some people were worried about before those games, wasn't shown up.

Tuilagi, by comparison, had a much easier start for England - his first five games were against Wales, Ireland, Argentina, Georgia and Romania, making it much easier for him to adjust to International Rugby, and build up his confidence. Who's to say how he'd be playing if he'd been only given 2 games against southern hemisphere opposition, and then dropped when he didn't run riot?

[Omelette]

Yappy,

Has Goode ever played 12 for Saracens? I'm all for letting players evolve and move as their careers/skills/bodies progress but shall we at least see him play for an extended period at 12 at club level before we chuck him in there against the boks and the blacks!?!?

Mawhis,

Well said, lets see JJ a bit more before we judge him and cast him aside - you know it took a certain Mr Greenwood (so much loved on these boards and throughout england) to really establish himself at international level.

**disclaimer** i am not comparing JJ with Will Greenwood, i am not saying JJ is as good as him... i'm just using him as an example...

[ChequeredJersey]

So Brown is in for his boot and high ball ability .. what about his attacking game, I haven't seen him play wing other than the odd 10 mins or so at the end of the last 2 England games

Looks like 1 of Haskell and Tom Wood are going to start in place of Tom Johnson, that is good news

Brown's attacking game is excellent, but from fullback. People seem to imply that they think it is a weakness compared to, say, Foden, but I think it is a massive strength

[Geordie]

Yes but the point was JJ diditn have a creative 12 beside him...well neither has Tuilagi for any of those games...thats all i was pointing out...

[DaveM]

Yes but the point was JJ diditn have a creative 12 beside him...well neither has Tuilagi for any of those games...thats all i was pointing out...

But Tuilagi has seen plenty of ball in the last two games, and if anything it has just shown up his limitations. Give JJ the same amount of ball and see what happens.

[maestegmafia]

Here is a link to the poll on this game from www.planetrugby.com

[maestegmafia]

Though the team has not been announced their seem to be many leaks of who will play where..

Probably Joseph in at 13 and Tuilagi on the Wing. Wood returning, Corbs too, and we know Waldron has been released.


Anyhow, here is a nice piece on young Joseph from scrum.com...


England centre Jonathan Joseph admits that comparisons between him and Jeremy Guscott are a "great honour" but he is fully aware of the challenge he faces to live up to them.

Guscott earned 65 England caps and also played eight Tests for the British & Irish Lions. He famously dropped the goal that won the second Test and the series against South Africa in 1997 and is widely regarded as one of the best ever centres. Joseph could find himself back in the England XV for their match with South Africa at the weekend and while he is in the early stages of his Test career, he is already drawing comparisons with Guscott.

"I quite like the comparison," Joseph said. "I've been told it a few times and it's great to be compared to a player like Jeremy Guscott. It's a great honour.

"I just have to keep working hard on what I am trying to bring to rugby and my game. I'm different to a few of the centres we've got and the coaches know that. It's about getting my game as good as it can be.

"It's great for me to learn off Mike Catt and Andy Farrell and the senior players. I like getting the ball in my hands, creating space for others and myself and using footwork. That's my best attribute but you have to get front ball to do that. It's getting the right balance."

Joseph played against South Africa on England's June tour but missed the opening two matches in the November Test series due to injury. He could now force his way back into the XV, which is named on Thursday, and he is looking forward to potentially running out on Saturday.

"My timing doesn't seem to be that great with injuries. You just have to get back as quickly as possible. I'm ready to go now," Joseph said. "It's a huge honour to be involved in a Test match against Twickenham. It will be awesome.

"We know what they're going to come with. They are a very physical side that brings a lot of intent. We have to match that early on and not let them get on top of us like they did in that second Test in the summer. We played a lot smarter in the third Test. We have to show real intent ourselves and get off to a good start. I think that's important for us. We have quite a bit of variety."

[bedfordwelsh]

Will be interesting to see how Tuilagi goes on the wing if selected there. I know his brother had a very successfyl carear for the Tigers there, has Manu played there before?

[maestegmafia]

I think so to, could be a great option for the Lions too...

[Ozzy3213]

I'm not a fan of playing players in positions that they don't play at club level. I'm sure Manu has played wing before for Tigers, but not for a while and not with any reglularity. There is also talk of Brown playing on the wing, which again I wouldn't really want to see as he's never played there before for Quins.

England should have selected a winger to play on the wing, but failing that I would suggest that JJ, who played the whole of the 2010/11 season on the wing for London Irish would be the most sensible option to play out there.

[maestegmafia]

I'm not a fan of playing players in positions that they don't play at club level. I'm sure Manu has played wing before for Tigers, but not for a while and not with any reglularity. There is also talk of Brown playing on the wing, which again I wouldn't really want to see as he's never played there before for Quins.

England should have selected a winger to play on the wing, but failing that I would suggest that JJ, who played the whole of the 2010/11 season on the wing for London Irish would be the most sensible option to play out there.

I agree with you regarding Brown but Tuilagi has all the attributes of any great winger and is probably currently England's most form try scorer.

Get players who can great space for him with more alacrity and England will reap the rewards. At the moment his presence in midfield stifles the decent club wingers England have been selecting outside him because he doesn't pass.

[Ozzy3213]

Maes, I agree with what you say there, it may be that by playing Tuilagi on the wing it rings more attacking threat for us as it gives us more creativity in midfield and we still have him as a threat. Another drawback though, specifically for this game is that if we go 11. Tuilagi 12. Barritt 13. Joseph, we have a winger who is nto a winger, a midfield pairing who have never played together before, and a back three who have never played as a unit before. That's a lot new things to bed in all at once, just by shifting one player to another position. The trouble with altering so many variables at ones is that it becomes very difficult to assess whether the experiment has worked, or which parts of it have actually caused it's ultimate failure.

[maestegmafia]

Maes, I agree with what you say there, it may be that by playing Tuilagi on the wing it rings more attacking threat for us as it gives us more creativity in midfield and we still have him as a threat. Another drawback though, specifically for this game is that if we go 11. Tuilagi 12. Barritt 13. Joseph, we have a winger who is nto a winger, a midfield pairing who have never played together before, and a back three who have never played as a unit before. That's a lot new things to bed in all at once, just by shifting one player to another position. The trouble with altering so many variables at ones is that it becomes very difficult to assess whether the experiment has worked, or which parts of it have actually caused it's ultimate failure.

I think England have been to scared of the "what ifs" factor of team selection over the last ten years. Under Rowell, and Cooke you had great continuity, Woodward shook that up a bit but then settled on a great side. Recently the selectorial balance has been stringently conservative. For example Barritt over Twelvetrees? Why put Tuilagi in the centre as Tigers do though he so obviously would be more devastating as a winger...? Let alone pairing him with a player who is not an attacking/creative force. Tuilagi rarely ever passes, he is a try scorer not one who frequently creates tries for others.

I am only pointing these out as, I read all England fans, journalists, pundits and like are unhappy with the England selection, it is in dispute, transition and has been for very nearly ten years now.

Time to make some glaringly obvious but slightly ballsey calls and reap the rewards of having a good solid and settled team that you can base a squad around.

I think the England team for the next few years should be based something around around the following. Obviously outside centre is a position i am not fully settled on but I like George Lowe, I rated May playing there too there are a whole heap of good 13s out there in the Premiership that could do a great job.

Corbs
Hartley
Cole
Launbury
Lawes
Wood
Robshaw
Morgan
Care
Flood
Tuilagi
Twelvetrees
Lowe
Ashton
Goode

[EnglishReign]

Maes, I agree with what you say there, it may be that by playing Tuilagi on the wing it rings more attacking threat for us as it gives us more creativity in midfield and we still have him as a threat. Another drawback though, specifically for this game is that if we go 11. Tuilagi 12. Barritt 13. Joseph, we have a winger who is nto a winger, a midfield pairing who have never played together before, and a back three who have never played as a unit before. That's a lot new things to bed in all at once, just by shifting one player to another position. The trouble with altering so many variables at ones is that it becomes very difficult to assess whether the experiment has worked, or which parts of it have actually caused it's ultimate failure.

I think England have been to scared of the "what ifs" factor of team selection over the last ten years. Under Rowell, and Cooke you had great continuity, Woodward shook that up a bit but then settled on a great side. Recently the selectorial balance has been stringently conservative. For example Barritt over Twelvetrees? Why put Tuilagi in the centre as Tigers do though he so obviously would be more devastating as a winger...? Let alone pairing him with a player who is not an attacking/creative force. Tuilagi rarely ever passes, he is a try scorer not one who frequently creates tries for others.

I am only pointing these out as, I read all England fans, journalists, pundits and like are unhappy with the England selection, it is in dispute, transition and has been for very nearly ten years now.

Time to make some glaringly obvious but slightly ballsey calls and reap the rewards of having a good solid and settled team that you can base a squad around.

I think the England team for the next few years should be based something around around the following. Obviously outside centre is a position i am not fully settled on but I like George Lowe, I rated May playing there too there are a whole heap of good 13s out there in the Premiership that could do a great job.

Corbs
Hartley
Cole
Launbury
Lawes
Wood
Robshaw
Morgan
Care
Flood
Tuilagi
Twelvetrees
Lowe
Ashton
Goode

Looks good, I think May at 13 would be great as well! Would like to see it in the 6N with Burns on the bench.

[maestegmafia]

ER thats another good call, Farrell doesnt fit, Burns would...!

Sorry would love to continue this but I have to nip out...! have a good day lads and ill check in on this thread later on this afternoon.

[englandglory4ever]

Mike Brown was outstanding when he came on against the wobblies. He must get a start. He was 100% better than Shaky Sharples. His defence of the high ball and kicking game is far superior and he always beats the first tackle when going forward. It will be a sin if he doesn't start against the Boks.

[maestegmafia]

Mike Brown was outstanding when he came on against the wobblies. He must get a start. He was 100% better than Shaky Sharples. His defence of the high ball and kicking game is far superior and he always beats the first tackle when going forward. It will be a sin if he doesn't start against the Boks.

Would you play him over Goode though? Goode has been fantastic for England so far. Introducing himself as a second choice first receiver has been a great option.

[gregortree]

Could start with both of them, Brown on the L wing.

[Effervescing Elephant]

Team is out:

England team to face South Africa
15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 4 caps)
14. Chris Ashton (Saracens, 27 caps)
13. Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 15 caps)
12. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 9 caps)
11. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 9 caps)
10. Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 52 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps)

1. Alex Corbisiero (London Irish, 16 caps)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 2 cap)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 33 caps)
4. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 2 caps)
5. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 10 caps)
6. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 11 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 10 caps)
8. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 7 caps)

Replacements
16. David Paice (London Irish, 4 caps)
17. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 21 caps)
18. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 2 cap)
19. Mouritz Botha (Saracens, 9 caps)
20. James Haskell (London Wasps, 43 caps)
21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 35 caps)
22. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 10 caps)
23. Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 3 caps)

[thomh]

Six changes made to the side. Youngs in for Care is the only one we didn't see coming I think

[Geordie]

Not bad...

Launchbury starts

Interesting Back Row...more oomph -

Brown on the wing -

[Geordie]

Six changes made to the side. Youngs in for Care is the only one we didn't see coming I think

Makes me even more convinced of my idea that hes using these AI's for squad rotation to decide who's No.1 and who's back up etc...

[Effervescing Elephant]

Ben Youngs starting smacks of a premeditated decision before the AIs started. 2 games each for him and DC?

[Effervescing Elephant]

Beat me to it Geordie!

[maestegmafia]

Launchbury deserves that spot in the second row, good to see Wood back too. Youngs offers a different game plus the familiarity with Care.

Not sure about the midfield and outside backs though. I don't see any more creativity in attack coming from the same centre pairing and adding Brown to the wing.

Would have liked to have seen Joseph and Twelvetrees start.

[gregortree]

Gosh I'm prescient !

[englandglory4ever]

Ben Youngs and Morgan need to have a good games. Care has it over Youngs at the moment IMO. The rest of it looks stronger than the last side.

Brown is a must to deal with the Boks kicking game. Let's hope they go well and can meet the Boks physicality.

[thomh]

To an extent I agree, Geordie, but I think that if Care or Waldrom had really nailed it in the first two games then they wouldn't have been dropped.

Don't see any problem with Brown on the wing. It's not a specialist position and we could use his kicking game. Wouldn't have been comfortable with Manu playing there against the Boks. He doesn't have a kicking game of note and we'll need his tackling infield to counter the South African ball carriers.

[ChequeredJersey]

Brown is a lot faster than he used to be, he isn't going to be an out and out pace winger though. His finishing is good but I'm worried that with limited gametime there, particularly in the earlier exchanges of matches where positioning and routine are vital, he could be exposed on the wing

[HongKongCherry]

One of the least inspiring set of backs we've seen probably since the Noon-Tindall era. They have been chosen to defend rather than attack and I just can't see us causing the Boks any problems. I think Brown is a very good full back, but he is not a winger. He has worked on his pace over recent years, but he still lacks the pace required to be a top class winger. Barrett and Tuilagi are close to being the reincarnation of Noon-Tindall in that they can defend well and are good at crash balls, but lack any creativity to open up defences. I think it is too soon for 36 to start and despite my vitriol about him recently I would move Tuilagi to 12 and bring Joseph in at 13. I'd also have a winger playing wing!

To end on a positive note, I do like the look of the pack and should hopefully bring a bit more intensity to the game which was lacking last week.

[bluestonevedder]

Overall, I'm really happy with the squad.

Launburry had to start along with Wood. Haskell on the bench is a great choice too, and will almost definitely come on at 8. Good to see Morgan back at 8 to start- I think he's a better player than he was over the summer, primarily because he's improved his fitness.

Only issue is with Botha on the bench. If his handling has improved, and he tackles hard, he could be a good impact payer, but I'm still unconvinced.

Think it's the best squad we could have put out.

[damage_13]

damn.. team list already out....

I'd bench Manu and JJ to play that posit instead. Manu will be used as an impact player in last 20mins until he can show in full contact training that he can draw attackers and pass the ball cleanly.

[Geordie]

Vedder maybe the thought is in the second half...Launchbury to 6, Haskell 8 and Botha at 4/5

[doctor_grey]

Corbisiero hasn't played much so far as he recovers his match fitness.
Has anyone seen him play in his c;ub games? How has he done?
I would preseme pretty good or he would not have been chosen......

[Geordie]

I like the look of the pack...

In fact id say that :

1 Corbs
2
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5
6 Wood
7
8 Morgan

Could be the base of a VERY good pack....

[yappysnap]

Bloody hell I do like that team! Looks like Lancaster is finally taking my advice re selection.

Hope Youngs has a good game, it'd be very handy if he could find his best form for this game.

[bluestonevedder]

Vedder maybe the thought is in the second half...Launchbury to 6, Haskell 8 and Botha at 4/5

Hadn't thought of that GF- distinct possibility!

We'll just have to see I guess.

Agree regarding the pack- there are a few names in there now who could be starters for a very very long time. Just need to get the other players around them. We have some seriously talented youngsters in the depths, and they'll get their time soon.

[Geordie]

And the point being...if we can get say that base or core in the pack...its easier to bring new players in....likewise the backs...though im getting the idea that the focus is on sorting the pack first THEN fixing the backs...

[Big]

Six changes made to the side. Youngs in for Care is the only one we didn't see coming I think

Makes me even more convinced of my idea that hes using these AI's for squad rotation to decide who's No.1 and who's back up etc...

To be fair, it's not unreasonable. Much as I'd like the priority to be winning every game from now to the end of the 2015 world cup, there is a degree of pragmatism to this approach.

It really says something that our most experienced forward is a 25 year old with 33 caps, and our most experienced player a 27 year old with 52... with the right coaching the current squad should get a lot better over the next 2 to 3 years.

[Mr Bounce]

I really don't understand why there has to be someone playing out of position. I like the team, don't get me wrong, but this is the second time SL has played a full-back at wing and I don't like the idea of it.

Wingers should be that: wingers!

Rant over. Let's enjoy the game!!

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Tuilagi has all the attributes of any great winger

Apart from pace, which is a prerequisite.

[Cumbrian]

I like the pack, it's indicative of the good group of young forwards that are establishing themselves. They need to get into the Boks from the very first minute and try and keep parity throughout. Very pleased for Launchbury too.


Depth is developing well too. Throw into the mix Marler, Hartley, Lawes, Croft, Fearns etc and a few of the new generation and we should have a competitive set of forwards for years to come.

[thomh]

Mr Bounce - third time. All against South Africa.

[Geordie]

Six changes made to the side. Youngs in for Care is the only one we didn't see coming I think

Makes me even more convinced of my idea that hes using these AI's for squad rotation to decide who's No.1 and who's back up etc...

To be fair, it's not unreasonable. Much as I'd like the priority to be winning every game from now to the end of the 2015 world cup, there is a degree of pragmatism to this approach.

It really says something that our most experienced forward is a 25 year old with 33 caps, and our most experienced player a 27 year old with 52... with the right coaching the current squad should get a lot better over the next 2 to 3 years.

Ah BIg, i wasnt criticising it..on the contrary i think htis is a good idea.

How many debates on here have we all said Englands problem is that we at times have too many options...which are all the same level and we need to select the few that can progress on to the next level ....hopefully top international level or world class.

This to me is them trying to do that. Sorting through the "him or him " debates once and for all...gives us first choice...but also who is their main challengers fighting for that spot...

[thomh]

The back row is going to be the real problem in terms of identifying who the players to stick with long term should be. Wood missed the Six Nations and summer tour, but is clearly a class act. At least one of him, Croft and Robshaw has to miss out when they're all fit.

[Geordie]

I see Croft missing out....Wood is not far off his lineout and offers more in tight....

Especially if we add others like Fearns etc..more physical players...

[Big]

Ah BIg, i wasnt criticising it..on the contrary i think htis is a good idea.

How many debates on here have we all said Englands problem is that we at times have too many options...which are all the same level and we need to select the few that can progress on to the next level ....hopefully top international level or world class.

This to me is them trying to do that. Sorting through the "him or him " debates once and for all...gives us first choice...but also who is their main challengers fighting for that spot...

That's fair enough. I think the challenge that SL and other coaches are up against is that many fans and journalists seem to expect them to treat every competition or series like a Lions test - where the coaches role is to look at the players available and cobble them into the best team possible at short notice. However, like you say and I very much agree he needs to identify who has the potential to step up to the next level and work with them to achieve that - and not just during the international windows. The problem is that won't really see whether or not he has achieved that for a couple of years yet.

[thomh]

Is Fearns that good? I've not seen a huge amount of him. Lancaster's also a fan of Calum Clark, though we don't yet know how far back his ban will set him in the coaches' minds.

The other possibility of course is that Robshaw misses out. If they think that Wood can do what Robshaw can at 7, then it's just a question of whether they want Croft or Robshaw in the team more.

Luke Wallace is another to watch out for. He went a bit quiet in the second half of last season, but against Bath in the LV = Cup last weekend he was amazing. 18 tackles, 12 carries and at least 2 turnovers, one of which I still can't get my head round.

[beshocked]

One of the least inspiring set of backs we've seen probably since the Noon-Tindall era. They have been chosen to defend rather than attack and I just can't see us causing the Boks any problems. I think Brown is a very good full back, but he is not a winger. He has worked on his pace over recent years, but he still lacks the pace required to be a top class winger. Barrett and Tuilagi are close to being the reincarnation of Noon-Tindall in that they can defend well and are good at crash balls, but lack any creativity to open up defences. I think it is too soon for 36 to start and despite my vitriol about him recently I would move Tuilagi to 12 and bring Joseph in at 13. I'd also have a winger playing wing!

To end on a positive note, I do like the look of the pack and should hopefully bring a bit more intensity to the game which was lacking last week.

As you are a Gloucester fan I can understand you being upset at the backs selection.

IMO twelve trees is overhyped and unproven.
Burns should probably be on the bench
Sharples proved he's a defensive liability - maybe try him again against lower ranked sides in the 6 nations.

I don't think it's a bad team at all. More creativity and involvement of wingers needed. Manu has to actually pass the ball. Youngs needs to have one his good days. If its yet another bad day the rest of the backs will struggle. Typically the centres will get blamed.

The forwards have to support their backs for once by winning the breakdown battle.

England back row is something that needs to become a strength.

[George Carlin]

If any England team is going to beat the Bokke it's that one.

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