This is why we love Wayne Barnes.

First topic message reminder :

Review of Wayne Barnes v Ireland 2015:

https://youtu.be/IEuXfewLcuY

Ireland lose again with Barnes as ref. Its getting ridiculous now. 3 wins in the last 13 games v Barnes. Really hope we don't get him for any WC games.

Joe Schmidt also has issues with Barnes:

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/joe-schmidt-has-issues-with-wayne-barnes-over-scrum-calls-1.2145742

Graham Henry also suspects something isnt quite right about Barnes' lopsided officiating too

http://www.theroar.com.au/2012/07/31/graham-henrys-final-word-on-suspected-match-fixing-in-rwc-2007/

GunsGerms wrote:http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/joe-schmidt-has-issues-with-wayne-barnes-over-scrum-calls-1.2145742

Schmidt has issues with Barnes too.

Quite some queue!

Still no answer?

As far as I see it, the top SH and top NH side both would rather any other referee in the world other than Barnes. Quite some statement!

No answer at all?

TheRugbyMaster wrote:As far as I see it, the top SH and top NH side both would rather any other referee in the world other than Barnes. Quite some statement!

And Dylan Hartley..

Quite a pickle for the world rugby authorities - do they trust him again with important World Cup matches given the suspicions around his competence and impartiality? Whether founded or not? What if another controversy hands england a third opportunity?

TheRugbyMaster wrote:Quite a pickle for the world rugby authorities - do they trust him again with important World Cup matches given the some 606v2 posters' suspicions around his competence and impartiality? Whether founded or not? What if another controversy hands england a third opportunity?

Fixed that for you and yes i think they will put aside the utterly unbiased and impartial views of a few jaded Irish/NZ/Northampton 606v2 fans.

Gwlad wrote:

TheRugbyMaster wrote:Quite a pickle for the world rugby authorities - do they trust him again with important World Cup matches given the some 606v2 posters' suspicions around his competence and impartiality? Whether founded or not? What if another controversy hands england a third opportunity?

Fixed that for you and yes i think they will put aside the utterly unbiased and impartial views of a few jaded Irish/NZ/Northampton 606v2 fans.

Maybe we need to do what the Welsh public did - issue a few death threats - that seems to be the only way to make sure we never get him again (and Rolland got the call right!)

Gwlad wrote:

TheRugbyMaster wrote:Quite a pickle for the world rugby authorities - do they trust him again with important World Cup matches given the some 606v2 posters' suspicions around his competence and impartiality? Whether founded or not? What if another controversy hands england a third opportunity?

Fixed that for you and yes i think they will put aside the utterly unbiased and impartial views of a few jaded Irish/NZ/Northampton 606v2 fans.

Which jaded Northampton fan? I am a Saints supporter and I don't have a bug up my arse about him.

You ashshamed RM or just trying to last longer than your peevious incarnations? Time to let your prejudice go?

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/england-criticise-steve-walsh-wales-30-3-448446

http://m.foxsports.com.au/rugby/rugby-world-cup-2011/retiring-springboks-captain-john-smit-takes-swipe-at-referee-bryce-lawrence-after-loss-to-the-wallabies/story-e6frf4zl-1226163619627

http://www.espn.co.uk/2011-rugby-world-cup/rugby/story/153014.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/10423225/England-v-Australia-Wallabies-sore-over-officials-error.html

http://blogs.reuters.com/sport/2011/03/14/when-rugby-officials-get-it-wrong/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2049657/Welsh-uproar-red-card-referee-French-father.html

So why the furore and denial and anger when Wayne Barnes is rightly called to account for a poor performance?

Why is he a special case? Why is he permitted to repeatedly balls it up (and let's face it - he seems to regularly becoming the focus of attention when he referees).

You can always tell when has a new account as you get a flurry of links from the Daily Mail

Gwlad wrote:

TheRugbyMaster wrote:Quite a pickle for the world rugby authorities - do they trust him again with important World Cup matches given the some 606v2 posters' suspicions around his competence and impartiality? Whether founded or not? What if another controversy hands england a third opportunity?

Fixed that for you and yes i think they will put aside the utterly unbiased and impartial views of a few jaded Irish/NZ/Northampton 606v2 fans.

Poor Wayne Barnes, gives Wales 2 yellow cards and awards Ireland a penalty try but still seen to have favoured Wales.

IronMike wrote:Poor Wayne Barnes, gives Wales 2 yellow cards and awards Ireland a penalty try but still seen to have favoured Wales.

Why was it necessary to give them two yellow cards? You only get yellow cards for repeatedly offending (and one of the yellow cards was for 3 penalty offences in the same phase play - hard to avoid giving one then). The 2nd Yellow Card was at 77 minutes and a third Yellow Card should have gone with the penalty try.

IronMike wrote:Poor Wayne Barnes, gives Wales 2 yellow cards and awards Ireland a penalty try but still seen to have favoured Wales.

He didn't favour Wales, he was favouring England by ensuring that Wales didn't run away with the game (hence the two yellows) and ensuring that the Irish closed down our points difference at the end of the game (pen try). He shafted us both (mainly Wales) in order to give England the chance to win the tournament easier. Yes I am being sarcastic. If I have learnt anything listening to Irish posters on the Pro12 threads about refs, I have learnt that no ref intentionally shafts a team or refs in a way to change the outcome of the game. And if people are suggesting otherwise they are just very poor losers, and lacking in class.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

IronMike wrote:Poor Wayne Barnes, gives Wales 2 yellow cards and awards Ireland a penalty try but still seen to have favoured Wales.

He didn't favour Wales, he was favouring England by ensuring that Wales didn't run away with the game (hence the two yellows) and ensuring that the Irish closed down our points difference at the end of the game (pen try).  He shafted us both (mainly Wales) in order to give England the chance to win the tournament easier.  Yes I am being sarcastic.  If I have learnt anything listening to Irish posters on the Pro12 threads about refs, I have learnt that no ref intentionally shafts a team or refs in a way to change the outcome of the game.  And if people are suggesting otherwise they are just very poor losers, and lacking in class.

A lot of unclassy people in Wales and poor losers then

TheRugbyMaster wrote:Quite a pickle for the world rugby authorities - do they trust him again with important World Cup matches given the suspicions around his competence and impartiality? Whether founded or not? What if another controversy hands england a third opportunity?

Let me get this right , are you suggesting that because a few Irish fans are sore losers World Rugby will change the allocation of refereering assignments?

Exiledinborders wrote:

TheRugbyMaster wrote:Quite a pickle for the world rugby authorities - do they trust him again with important World Cup matches given the suspicions around his competence and impartiality? Whether founded or not? What if another controversy hands england a third opportunity?

Let me get this right , are you suggesting that because a few Irish fans are sore losers World Rugby will change the allocation of refereering assignments?

Should do - after all Rolland had to retire because he couldn't get any more reffing work in Wales. They locked the Ferry Ports to him, had big "Have You Seen This Man?" posters at airports, and had a twenty four hour guard placed in orbit to stop him using a Soyuz space craft to get in from there.

There is a precedent for shocking performances to be met with avoidance of the teams involved.

Lawrence retired after death threats from South Africa.

Walsh was pulled from England games after the RFU whined about being destroyed by wales.

Perhaps Barnes needs a little break from the teams whom he offends (wales, Ireland, New Zealand, ... )

Fair's fair right?

At least you admit you're whining GE!

Can you explain something? I don't get why people post the symbol in response to a post they really agree with.

Is that a forum cultural thing? I've never seen that before?!

Yeah you have GE.

I'm shocked at two things!

1- That this thread is still on the go! Build a bridge and get over it people!!!!!!!

2- That Grey Ghost has wummed sooooo much that he's been awared with his own emoticon!

Sin é wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

IronMike wrote:Poor Wayne Barnes, gives Wales 2 yellow cards and awards Ireland a penalty try but still seen to have favoured Wales.

He didn't favour Wales, he was favouring England by ensuring that Wales didn't run away with the game (hence the two yellows) and ensuring that the Irish closed down our points difference at the end of the game (pen try).  He shafted us both (mainly Wales) in order to give England the chance to win the tournament easier.  Yes I am being sarcastic.  If I have learnt anything listening to Irish posters on the Pro12 threads about refs, I have learnt that no ref intentionally shafts a team or refs in a way to change the outcome of the game.  And if people are suggesting otherwise they are just very poor losers, and lacking in class.

A lot of unclassy people in Wales and poor losers then

So I've heard, looks like it's a 606v2 problem full stop (probably online forum issue totally), regardless of nationality.

Perhaps we should start a conspiracy theory about the cross-eyed AR who called the pass forward to deny England a late try v Ireland to help Ireland's PD?  That's a 10 or 14 point difference.  Or the last try for France v Italy possibly coming off a forward pass improving their PD.  

I'm certainly not one to defend officials when they make errors and think we're all entitled to debate them without being attacked by those that disagree, but I really don't buy in to the suggestions that they make judgements to influence results in their own country's favour.  I know most say that jokingly but it seems some may actually think that - which is a shame.

Heaf wrote:Perhaps we should start a conspiracy theory about the cross-eyed AR who called the pass forward to deny England a late try v Ireland to help Ireland's PD?  That's a 10 or 14 point difference.  

 

The game was two minutes over by then.  Had England scored and finally won a tournament because of it - there'd be war about the clock.  Go back over the game.


More 2015 controversy and conspiracy

The point is you can always find something to pick on - I could probably go back over the game and make a video about how Joubert let Ireland get away with stuff that Wayne Barnes didn't for example.  Or the disallowed try v Wales where the TMO went back 4 phases for a marginal obstruction call, or the try for Wales where the No. 8 picked the ball out of the scrum illegally.  As I said I'm not saying mistakes weren't made (that may well affect the final outcome), just I don't believe the officials are doing it deliberately and conspiring in some way.

The point is the game was over two minutes before and nobody cares to mention it. Had England scored that late try, The Barnes affair would be small change. Ireland certainly haven't been getting any luck coloured green in this tournament

I wonder what's cooked up fro us in Scotland?? We're nervous.

I thought the game is over when the referee blows his whistle. Anything else is guidance

Heaf wrote:The point is you can always find something to pick on - I could probably go back over the game and make a video about how Joubert let Ireland get away with stuff that Wayne Barnes didn't for example.  Or the disallowed try v Wales where the TMO went back 4 phases for a marginal obstruction call, or the try for Wales where the No. 8 picked the ball out of the scrum illegally.  As I said I'm not saying mistakes weren't made (that may well affect the final outcome), just I don't believe the officials are doing it deliberately and conspiring in some way.

Look, we all know the ref doesn't get it right all the time and that is ok when you have time to redress the situation or maybe the ref to give you another decision to redress the incorrect one. But the refs need to get the last few decisions at the end of the game right. They should not be deciding who the winner/loser is.

I agree they shouldn't be deciding the winner but I'm not sure why the timing makes a difference - a try is worth 7 points whenever it's scored (or disallowed) and the decision will change the way the game plays out from that point.  The sad fact is sometimes these errors do affect the result - I acknowledge that.  

The point I keep trying to make is I don't believe officials deliberately try to influence results.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Sin é wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

IronMike wrote:Poor Wayne Barnes, gives Wales 2 yellow cards and awards Ireland a penalty try but still seen to have favoured Wales.

He didn't favour Wales, he was favouring England by ensuring that Wales didn't run away with the game (hence the two yellows) and ensuring that the Irish closed down our points difference at the end of the game (pen try).  He shafted us both (mainly Wales) in order to give England the chance to win the tournament easier.  Yes I am being sarcastic.  If I have learnt anything listening to Irish posters on the Pro12 threads about refs, I have learnt that no ref intentionally shafts a team or refs in a way to change the outcome of the game.  And if people are suggesting otherwise they are just very poor losers, and lacking in class.

A lot of unclassy people in Wales and poor losers then

So I've heard, looks like it's a 606v2 problem full stop (probably online forum issue totally), regardless of nationality.

It's apologism of the highest order to blame a referees poor performance on online forums!

Like saying we radicalise and cause terrorism by scrutinising ideological values of minority groups.

Surely we should be focusing more on how Ireland's losing record with Barnes adjudicating is proof of how GOOD wayne barnes actually is?

all refs have occasional howlers. all of them.

that the most cycnical team around the breakdown loses when a ref correctly applies the laws is just common sense, no?

Barnes consistency around the breakdown favours teams that dont cheat, and teams that want quick ball. that 2nd half of rugby is the best in the NH for several years. Long may Barnes officiate and drive the breakdown infringements out of the game.

And NB, as i said at the time, Barnes gave a penalty for offside on that last scrum. was called by the TJ, and was because 2 irish backs had rushed up even ahead of the back foot (nevermind 5 yds behind it) to try to score on the blindside. Very basic error, and the only confusion seems to be that people think the penalty was awarded for the scrum.

Disappointment is one emotion.  Some people handle the words they use to describe it better.

The inference I take from Secrectflys words - and of course he was ratty and angry at losing out by such a small margin, I accept it was soon after a major disappointment - but the inference I take from his expressed disappointment is that Ireland deserved the grand slam because they played all the rugby - and that the other side in contention got an easy ride somehow from the same opponents Wales themselves met in this round.

No. Not true is all I'm saying to Secretfly and people who agree with him.  Wales killed off Ireland like assassins.  In other earlier rounds perhaps Wales would have needed to go for it and wouldn't have.  But they did need to go for it and did.  And they showed the real gap in quality when seriously going for it.

Secretfly seems to imply that  Wales needed 'help' from Barnes to get their job done.  If that's his view, that's an insult to the winners that were by far superior to their opponents.

But it's his opinion and he's entitled to it.  He seems to be a person that prefers his honesty over diplomacy.  So be it.  But people do react in turn to honesty with honesty of their own.

Gooseberry wrote:

But it's his opinion and he's entitled to it.  He seems to be a person that prefers his honesty over diplomacy.  So be it.

Repeat that again  I like the sound of it.  It's almost something I'd say myself Goose

ps. And Brown did suggest the Welsh ref let the French off the hook at the end................ hmmmm, a man after me own heart.  

But I'm still more diplomatic as I did say Wales played like fire - and believe it.  Ireland played well enough - and I believe they can do even more.  And England played some glorious madcap rugby from planet X - and it horrified me and entertained me in near equal measure.

So I still win out over snarly Brown who couldn't bring himself to say well done

Fly's 'honesty' over Barnes is deluded. And any fan who prefers to believe a referee has been the deciding factor in a defeat such as that Ireland suffered in Welsh hands, is simply trying to convince himself that is team is infallible because it has been beaten by a team he perceives as inferior. The fault therefore must lie elsewhere, by definition he cannot acknowledge they were soundly beaten.

Long may such delusion continue.

Actually Goose is quoting my own words, Gwlad and dropping in his killer tag lines as he goes

But No, no.... it's Wales who think Ireland generally inferior, Gwlad.  

No Wales have always thought themselves superior by tradition.  Sometimes with just cause, often with little cause - except perhaps a naughty ballboy now and then.  
We are the interlopers - we don't really belong.  We spoiled the 70s, 80s and 90s by getting good in the Noughties.  We were the eternal lapdogs of the five nations.  The 'Italy' of yesteryear.  Some of them even think we ruined the club relationship they enjoyed with English sides before we turned up with the unwanted Celtic league business.

No, it's always us that were the inferiors, Gwlad.  I know my history.  And probably a bit of that informed Warburton's assertion, after his exhaustive efforts in Italy, that he felt he gave England at least a tough target to beat.  I don't think he even mentioned us once.    England were his only thought.  We were the side that were obviously never going to shaft a good Scotland by 30.  We were dead.  Batteries spent. Inferior to the two class sides of the competition.

Old habits, old thoughts persist.  But that's lovely.  That's rivalry.  No harm in it.  Let the dogfights continue.

Gwlad wrote:Fly's 'honesty' over Barnes is deluded. And any fan who prefers to believe a referee has been the deciding factor in a defeat such as that Ireland suffered in Welsh hands, is simply trying to convince himself that is team is infallible because it has been beaten by a team he perceives as inferior. The fault therefore must lie elsewhere, by definition he can acknowledge they were soundly beaten.

Long may such delusion continue.

Funny that I'm reading complaints about refs all year but it seems we're not allowed to criticise Barnes because Wales and England got the right result.

SecretFly wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

But it's his opinion and he's entitled to it.  He seems to be a person that prefers his honesty over diplomacy.  So be it.

Repeat that again  I like the sound of it.  It's almost something I'd say myself Goose

ps. And Brown did suggest the Welsh ref let the French off the hook at the end................ hmmmm, a man after me own heart.  

But I'm still more diplomatic as I did say Wales played like fire - and believe it.  Ireland played well enough - and I believe they can do even more.  And England played some glorious madcap rugby from planet X - and it horrified me and entertained me in near equal measure.

So I still win out over snarly Brown who couldn't bring himself to say well done

I  think his attitude would've been different if "your lot" had beat them fair and square on the field of play.

Oh.

?

We did beat Brown's 'lot' fair and square on the field of play........?

Hence the "oh"
Never mind, at least you got the first joke!

I'm genuinely trying to get jokes Goose - and believe me I do appreciate them from people such as yourself. Nothing wrong with being kept on your toes! But joke time can get confusing when I'm slipping between threads and lose track of time and space

SecretFly wrote:I'm genuinely trying to get jokes Goose - and believe me I do appreciate them from people such as yourself.  Nothing wrong with being kept on your toes!  But joke time can get confusing when I'm slipping between threads and lose track of time and space

Hey mate,  If you want to prove you have a sense of humour, then come out of the dark and intio the light and become an England supporter.  We make jokes about winning the 6 Nations every year.  For reasons I can't fathom, people tend to them them seriously..............

Doc.............. too many tries killed England, ironically. They got into a fever try scoring match with France and kept letting France back into the game because of it. Had they been somewhat more cautious, they could have kept hitting France with quick assaults then falling back to defend what they got.

The emotion got too much. Lancaster got his speech wrong before the game. 4 solid tries was all it needed and a few penalties plus robust defending.

I thought Barnes had a decent game in Wales vs Ireland. Two issues: the Welsh scrum constantly going backwards and still getting penalties was ridiculous. And the final driving maul was clearly brought down by Wales and Barnes called it the other way. Not saying there was a conspiracy theory, swings and roundabouts. We benefitted from an iffy call from the final scrum against France last year.

Equally we should have put Wales to the sword before that and didn't, not converting pressure and some heroic defending responsible

But if Barnes favoured attacking teams consistently like was said above say then it has to be applied consistently to those two aspects of the game aswell.

SecretFly wrote:Doc.............. too many tries killed England, ironically.  They got into a fever try scoring match with France and kept letting France back into the game because of it.  Had they been somewhat more cautious, they could have kept hitting France with quick assaults then falling back to defend what they got.

The emotion got too much.  Lancaster got his speech wrong before the game.  4 solid tries was all it needed and a few penalties plus robust defending.

you make it sound so easy. most ireland have ever beaten france by was 9 points. and this france had only conceded 2 tries in the tournament. wales and ireland showed how hard it was to beat ireland if you keep it tight.

england kept the ball alive. not a single kick to touch. keep it in play, run their legs off, quick taps. you get the idea. and it damn near worked.

i question some aspects of lancaster's approach, but he got this one spot on. just because england didnt win by 26 points doesnt mean his tactics were wrong.

Marshes wrote:I thought Barnes had a decent game in Wales vs Ireland. Two issues: the Welsh scrum constantly going backwards and still getting penalties was ridiculous. And the final driving maul was clearly brought down by Wales and Barnes called it the other way. Not saying there was a conspiracy theory, swings and roundabouts. We benefitted from an iffy call from the final scrum against France last year.

Equally we should have put Wales to the sword before that and didn't, not converting pressure and some heroic defending responsible

But if Barnes favoured attacking teams consistently like was said above say then it has to be applied consistently to those two aspects of the game aswell.

the last scrum was a pen against ireland for your backs offside on the blindside.

and the maul was no way a penalty try, so its either a correct call by barnes, or ireland get a penalty and have to kick for the lineout as they are 7 points behind. unlikely to lead to a try imo.

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Doc.............. too many tries killed England, ironically.  They got into a fever try scoring match with France and kept letting France back into the game because of it.  Had they been somewhat more cautious, they could have kept hitting France with quick assaults then falling back to defend what they got.

The emotion got too much.  Lancaster got his speech wrong before the game.  4 solid tries was all it needed and a few penalties plus robust defending.

you make it sound so easy. most ireland have ever beaten france by was 9 points. and this france had only conceded 2 tries in the tournament. wales and ireland showed how hard it was to beat ireland if you keep it tight.

england kept the ball alive. not a single kick to touch. keep it in play, run their legs off, quick taps. you get the idea. and it damn near worked.

i question some aspects of lancaster's approach, but he got this one spot on. just because england didnt win by 26 points doesnt mean his tactics were wrong.

Not easy.  Infinitely doable for a side like England in the mood to give itself a target?  No?  This is the WC hopeful side stacked with rapid strike runners?

Why do you take offence to me pointing out the truth?  More calm would have won the Title for England.  Yes, moments of madness to score the tries and loosen up France accordingly to do it.  But England just forgot about defending and paid the price of the score clock continually being reset.

That's the truth.  I'm not making it up.

And on your final highlighted bit.  I'd have to disagree totally.  If England didn't win the prize because 35 points was scored against them then I'd say the tactics were wrong.  Winning the title was the objective yes?  That could have been achieved with less disregard for defence.