England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

First topic message reminder :

Date: Saturday 3rd November 2018
Time: 15:00
Location: Twickenham Stadium

Referee:       Angus Gardiner (Aus)
Assistant 1: Jerome Garces (France)
Assistant 2: Ben Whitehouse (Wales)
TMO:            Olly Hodges (Ireland)




Teams


England

15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 21 caps), 14 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 26 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 13 caps), 12 Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 13 caps), 11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 37 caps), 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 61 caps) co-captain, 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 77 caps), 1 Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs, 2 caps), 2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 93 caps) co-captain, 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 13 caps), 4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 22 caps), 5 George Kruis (Saracens, 25 caps), 6 Brad Shields (Wasps, 2 caps), 7 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 4 caps), 8 Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 4 caps).
 
16 Jamie George (Saracens, 28 caps), 17 Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 11 caps), 19 Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 6 caps) , 20 Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby, uncapped), 21 Danny Care (Harlequins, 81 caps), 22 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 47 caps), 23 Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps).




South Africa


15 Damian Willemse, 14 S’bu Nkosi, 13 Jesse Kriel, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Aphiwe Dyantyi, 10 Handre Pollard, 9 Ivan van Zyl, 8 Warren Whiteley, 7 Duane Vermeulen, 6 Siya Kolisi, 5 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Malcolm Marx, 1 Steven Kitshoff

Substitutes: 16 Bongi Mbonambi, 17 Thomas du Toit, 18 Wilco Louw, 19 RG Snyman, 20 Lood de Jager, 21 Embrose Papier, 22 Elton Jantjies, 23 André Esterhuizen.

Too much ball kicked away.....on a dry day?

Heaf, he does seem to be a gluten for punishment doesn’t he?

How odd...

True Ebop - but I'd rather not do something than stick a toothpick in my eye just so I could say how painful it was

stub wrote:Heaf, he does seem to be a gluten for punishment doesn’t he?

How odd...

Yeah if I found something that painful I'd stop doing it - that's just me though

A gluten? I am a glutton for punishment I agree. Had to do some research on what the ABs will come up against. Is that strange?

That's a good one I don't think anyone needs to do much research to know the ABs are going to be massive favourites ...

You'd better get some optrex ready for next week ...

Not a scratch side, but loads of changes and their 1st game up......they should improve but not enough to beat the AB's me thinks.....too predictable in the halves.

Haha ebop, apologies for confusing your intolerances!

Attack coach?

Yep, not holding out much hope for next week but who knows, could be a nasty bout of flu or food poisoning brewing.

Cumbrian wrote:I put it on the main England thread but Daly just didn't look good at full back.  I have been shouted down in the past, but Daly got beat to pretty much every high ball in attack, he showed poor positional play, no instinct for attack and just looked uncomfortable throughout.

I don't get what Te'o brings, he seems like a lump that kills our attack dead.  Slade didn't look amazing either, but in retrospect he didn't have much to work with.

I nearly swore the house down at the end because I was convinced that Farrell had screwed us at the end.  What a stupid thing to do, lucky boy.

I can't help but think we were a bit lucky (despite the admirable grit shown) and I think the All Blacks could tear us a new one.

I agree but to be fair to Te'o he is so short of match practice it is harsh to judge him based on this match.

Daly is not a full back.

stub wrote:Haha ebop, apologies for confusing your intolerances!

I can eat gluten but don’t like toothpicks in my eyeballs

ebop wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:Watching England play rugby is truly painful. What else can be said about that game. Well done England kicking 4 penalties.

Any more painful than SA?

Yes, England are a very painful watch, toothpick in the eyeball painful. SA at least scored a try and have players that do things that make you go to the edge of your seat. England, well, it’s kick and clap stuff.

Were you watching the same game? SA were dire.

To be fair ebop I think that’s an intolerance that most of us share! :-)

Just NZ to beat for England to have dominance overall SH. Bring it on!!

Beat SA home and away. Aussies 3-0 away. Argues 2-0 away.

While I can't see England pulling off an upset, I reckon it will be a cracking game next week with England scoring a few well worked tries.

Once the AB's have got bored with crossing our try line, of course

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:Watching England play rugby is truly painful. What else can be said about that game. Well done England kicking 4 penalties.

Any more painful than SA?

Yes, England are a very painful watch, toothpick in the eyeball painful. SA at least scored a try and have players that do things that make you go to the edge of your seat. England, well, it’s kick and clap stuff.

Were you watching the same game? SA were dire.

Didn’t say they weren’t today. Frustrated they blew some important lineouts. If they nailed some key moments the game was theirs because England didn’t look like getting over the line.

Neither did SA to be fair

Well, they did get across the try line, and blew some golden opportunities. SA didn’t have the nous to capitalise on an English yellow card either. Credit to England. The ABs have scored 39 points on average this year so will be interesting to see how next weeks game unfolds. The incompetent French referee will play into England’s hands so expect to see Farrell have a say.

A tough game for England today. a bit ring rusty as they say.
quite a few players missing from England. but can they keep using they as an excuse?

With regards to South Africa i thought they was well under par today, England should have been blown away in the first half. But well done to England for keeping SA to a very low score.

Still a win is a win. Well done England.

Did any one think Owen Farrell was lucky with the last tackle of the game?

It looked very close to being a full on shoulder charge. But the TMO and the Ref said not.so who could argue with that?

Biltong wrote:

mid_gen wrote:Genuinely baffled by anyone that objects to Farrell's tackle on replay.

At full speed I thought it was high, but on replay, no problem. Perfectly legit tackle. Arms wrapped, fine.

You penalise that tackle you might as well just be play touch.

Mate, if that was a wrapped arms tackle then your interpretation of wrap is deeply skewed

Yes one arm was nowhere near in fact it was pushed away so he could impact with the chest. The lower arm loosely floated up and flopped towards the pkayers torso and thats what saved him, you could hear the ref tell him one arm was involved. Very, very lucky. ‘Wrapped around’ is no description of what Farrell did.

Regadless, its no reason either should win or lose.

We are damned if we do and damned if we don't with many posters. We actually defended really well and also missed a few chances ourselves, Daly had 2-1 twice. As the game progressed we got better and looked more settled. For a new look team it was encouraging. We won't beat the all blacks but hopefully we will be hard to beat at home.

Good tackle by Farrell. The ref missed a few by SA, but thought he had a decent game.

Putting SA away when playing average is satisfying. England will improve. SA are so one-dimensional as always.

Faz had an OK match some of his passing was shocking though when we were in the ascendancy. Took his kicks well and marshelled the troops nicely under the posts after their try. A sold 5or6 out 10.

Cyril wrote:Putting SA away when playing average is satisfying. England  will improve. SA are so one-dimensional as always.

Have England got any dimensions?

Will Farrell get cited ? From what I saw it doesn’t look much better that the one (on Roberts) that granted Kaino a YC a 6 weeks ban after Bath-Toulouse. But he will be probably get away since he is a nice English gentlemen.

No contact with the head ... not a red card.

I see on Twitter, BOD thinks farrell's tackle was fine, while Andy Powell disagrees.

Here's May, Farrell and Wilson in front of what sounds like a bunch of drunks.

Rugby Fan wrote:May, Farrell and Wilson in front of what sounds like a bunch of drunks.

Bit awkward ... is that a new program? Can’t remember seeing this when I was living in UK.

Not only has my gob been smacked but my flaber is gasted. An England with a callow FR, 2nd choice locks, possibly the most inexperienced BR in test history, an out of form SH, a centre with 28 mins of game time this season, a FB who’s not keen on the high ball, a FH who takes a huge risk in the last minute, and a YC – beat SA! A maligned past-it hooker outshines a contender for WPY, a goal kicker with bigger balls than Pollard, May constantly blocked with his chase, a SA out-paced in the 2nd half, not to mention a sulky Sue ref. And altho the scoreline was tight, the better side won. Who’d have thunk it – not me. It just lacked a couple of well-deserved trys from the victors I guess. Two sides not giving a quarter - for those who thought it a terrible game, maybe high-scoring basket-ball is your game.

whocares wrote:Bit awkward ... is that a new program? Can’t remember seeing this when I was living in UK.

First time I've seen it on YouTube but it may have been up before. It's for the sponsor O2, and the presenter, Vernon Kay, says he's been doing it for four years. Wouldn't be something I'd enjoy doing if I was a player.

Rugby Fan wrote:

whocares wrote:Bit awkward ... is that a new program? Can’t remember seeing this when I was living in UK.

First time I've seen it on YouTube but it may have been up before. It's for the sponsor O2, and the presenter, Vernon Kay, says he's been doing it for four years. Wouldn't be something I'd enjoy doing if I was a player.

At a guess, it’s a corporate hospitality interview that’s been videoed.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Not only has my gob been smacked but my flaber is gasted. An England with a callow FR, 2nd choice locks, possibly the most inexperienced BR in test history, an out of form SH, a centre with 28 mins of game time this season, a FB who’s not keen on the high ball, a FH who takes a huge risk in the last minute, and a YC  – beat SA! A maligned past-it hooker outshines a contender for WPY, a goal kicker with bigger balls than Pollard, May constantly blocked with his chase, a SA out-paced in the 2nd half, not to mention a sulky Sue ref. And altho the scoreline was tight, the better side won. Who’d have thunk it – not me. It just lacked a couple of well-deserved trys from the victors I guess. Two sides not giving a quarter - for those who thought it a terrible game, maybe high-scoring basket-ball is your game.

It was a terrible match, very (very) high error rates from both sides, bith individually and collectively. If you choose to roll off a hundred excuses and summarise from that that due to the absence of anyone with genuine skill on the English side that it was in fact a good game then you obviously have low expectations as a spectator.

Two sides not giving a quarter? Both were giving them all match, the other just wasnt taking them.

How anyone can call that a good game is a mystery. It was one of the lowest quality, poorly skilled turnouts in the last ten years. Not even befitting of a test match.

You said England would be torn a new one, so I'm not listening to you

Barney McGrew did it wrote:You said England would be torn a new one, so I'm not listening to you

Whats torn a new one? Is that Gaelic for something?

I asked how England were going to handle that Bok pack. I got the answer...the Bok pack capitulated big time.

England deserved two tries? On this planet? Geez.

Well the dust has settled somewhat...

1st half was not good. We seemed to be containment mode, just trying to defend wave after wave of SA attack...and then kicking away any possession that way. On the very few plusses, we defended extremely well, better than we have for a number of years.

2nd half, much better! More pace into the game and we seemed up for it. Was it a plan to contain the bigger (perhaps less fit?) SA side and then open up the game somewhat, it certainly seemed that way. Daly hindered the attack slightly (who'd have thought???) but both wingers played well and the bench had a real impact.

Looking at it, it was a very good win. SA are full of confidence and are certainly improving. We are coming off a poor 6N and iffy Summer tour....plus we have bags of injuries. Onto the NZ game, I'll take the same result again but would honestly expect a 10 to 15 pt defeat. I do think it'll be a very different game and hopefully a bit more open.

Oh the irony, about 3 years of moaning about MB not passing and then Daly misses two overlaps. In fairness neither definitive but if that had been MB the boards would have been red hot. Will we see MB back next week for his better high ball handling? And if so what happens to Daly?

Though Wilson and Mercer were excellent, could the form a 6 & 7 partnership either side of Billy.

Itoje was a liability, coincidence that England's best 10 in the first half was when he was off the field? Can't see him being dropped but if Lawes was back next week I would consider it. Kruis grew into it as the game progresses.

Hind sight is great of course but many did question the starting props versus the bench and particularly at loose head that seemed a problem. Thought Harry Williams was fabulous when he came on.

Mid field was hard to judge as they had so little ball in the first half. In the second we thrived in broken play and looked a bit stodgy in first phase ball.

Finally, Jonny May. Gets better and better, couple of lovely leaps to keep ball in play. Don't know how the touch judge ruled that SA penalty as in touch, think he just put his flag up too early and felt he couldn't take it down, he did look a bit sheepish.

Regardless of what we think of how England played it will give them confidence. They have shown that despite playing poorly they toughed it out when the odds were massively stacked against them. It was not pretty. But I will take that win.

Next week will be a different matter and nobody is giving England much of a chance. However, pretty much everyone said that in 2012. I can dream can't I??

https://youtu.be/FDVjaSs4FM0

Similar tackle by Farrell in the 2015 RWC. I think Gardener got that one badly wrong.

Another shoulder charge v Ireland

https://youtu.be/Sp-YZZ9PM1E

another v NZ

https://youtu.be/t5c2yyP2BUo

Composite team based on Sunday Times player ratings:

Willemse, Nkosi, Kriel, de Allende, May, Pollard, Youngs, Kitschoff, Marx, Malherbe, Kruis, du Toit, Kolisi, Vermeulen, Wilson

I don’t get the love for Williams. In the stands, it looked like he had one great scrum and then got owned in the other ones.

LondonTiger wrote:Composite team based on Sunday Times player ratings:

Willemse, Nkosi, Kriel, de Allende, May, Pollard, Youngs, Kitschoff, Marx, Malherbe, Kruis, du Toit, Kolisi, Vermeulen, Wilson

The hooker selection doesn't make a lot of sense.

LondonTiger wrote:Composite team based on Sunday Times player ratings:

Willemse, Nkosi, Kriel, de Allende, May, Pollard, Youngs, Kitschoff, Marx, Malherbe, Kruis, du Toit, Kolisi, Vermeulen, Wilson

Marx? Marx?

Poorfour wrote:I don’t get the love for Williams. In the stands, it looked like he had one great scrum and then got owned in the other ones.

The camera positions meant for us at home, we saw Sinckler in the first half and Moon in the second. This therefore means we saw little of the other two props at scrums. Throughout the first half Sinckler was in trouble at every scrum it seemed, we have to assume Hepburn was also struggling. That things improved markedly once all the replacements were made suggests they were more solid.

There is also a risk of confirmation bias, both for those who feel Sinckler is better from the bench and those who feel he is our best TH. As I am in the former camp there is always a risk I concentrate on the first half where the Quin struggled and ignore his time in the second where there was a vast improvement from him.

lostinwales wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Composite team based on Sunday Times player ratings:

Willemse, Nkosi, Kriel, de Allende, May, Pollard, Youngs, Kitschoff, Marx, Malherbe, Kruis, du Toit, Kolisi, Vermeulen, Wilson

Marx? Marx?

Aye they score him 6 to Hartley's 5.

Independent has it 7-5 to Hartley, but then they also score Te'o higher than de Allende.

Heaf wrote:No contact with the head ... not a red card.

Absolutely.

If it had been given as a penalty I would have had no real complaint. However there is no way it was a red card so he cannot be cited. On the other hand bizarrely the Citing Officer is a New Zealander. Quite how they allocate officials is a mystery - England have had a SANZAR ref in five of the last times they have played SANZAR opposition.

lostinwales wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Composite team based on Sunday Times player ratings:

Willemse, Nkosi, Kriel, de Allende, May, Pollard, Youngs, Kitschoff, Marx, Malherbe, Kruis, du Toit, Kolisi, Vermeulen, Wilson

Marx? Marx?

Its fair enough if you ask me. Marx was one of englands best players.