England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

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Date: Saturday 3rd November 2018
Time: 15:00
Location: Twickenham Stadium

Referee:       Angus Gardiner (Aus)
Assistant 1: Jerome Garces (France)
Assistant 2: Ben Whitehouse (Wales)
TMO:            Olly Hodges (Ireland)




Teams


England

15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 21 caps), 14 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 26 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 13 caps), 12 Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 13 caps), 11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 37 caps), 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 61 caps) co-captain, 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 77 caps), 1 Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs, 2 caps), 2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 93 caps) co-captain, 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 13 caps), 4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 22 caps), 5 George Kruis (Saracens, 25 caps), 6 Brad Shields (Wasps, 2 caps), 7 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 4 caps), 8 Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 4 caps).
 
16 Jamie George (Saracens, 28 caps), 17 Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 11 caps), 19 Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 6 caps) , 20 Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby, uncapped), 21 Danny Care (Harlequins, 81 caps), 22 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 47 caps), 23 Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps).




South Africa


15 Damian Willemse, 14 S’bu Nkosi, 13 Jesse Kriel, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Aphiwe Dyantyi, 10 Handre Pollard, 9 Ivan van Zyl, 8 Warren Whiteley, 7 Duane Vermeulen, 6 Siya Kolisi, 5 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Malcolm Marx, 1 Steven Kitshoff

Substitutes: 16 Bongi Mbonambi, 17 Thomas du Toit, 18 Wilco Louw, 19 RG Snyman, 20 Lood de Jager, 21 Embrose Papier, 22 Elton Jantjies, 23 André Esterhuizen.

I think one factor that the ref may have taken into account was that Esterhuizen stepped across Farrell into the tackle, which would have had an influence on whether he could wrap. Gardner seemed pretty relaxed about tackling throughout the game, so it would have been tough to tighten up on his interpretation just then.

That was a penalty all day every day. SA got tucked. Eddie survives another day with yet another unconvincing win. Didn’t Angus choke in another big decision recently? Forget what it was but he got hung out to dry by WR for making a bad call. He’s an ok ref but seems to be getting a few big decisions wrong that could change the outcome of a game.

Any win at home against SA is ok by me and I'm an England fan. Good 2nd half performance, hopefully we can build it on for the rest of the series.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Any win at home against SA is ok by me and I'm an England fan. Good 2nd half performance, hopefully we can build it on for the rest of the series.

Exactly, a win is a win, regardless of how it happens.

True, a win is a win, even an ugly unconvincing win

ebop wrote:True, a win is a win, even an ugly unconvincing win

I am totally convinced England won. I have no doubts at all.

Well managed to get to wales and back without finding the score out but wish I had as it would Ave saved my heart a bit this morning. Much tighter than I anticipated. Obviously hanging in there really well in the first before playing with some brains in the second. Sinckler and Kruis held that pack together brilliantly. Mercer I'd going to be some players. Despite lacking the pounds consistently makes yards and the right decisions. He needs to start next week.
I could kick Daly for not passing to may twice in the 2nd half could have been cruising.

Exiledinborders wrote:

ebop wrote:True, a win is a win, even an ugly unconvincing win

I am totally convinced England won. I have no doubts at all.

Yes, but SA were robbed of an opportunity to win that game. It was a very unconvincing win by England. Very unconvincing, I’m convinced of that. SA will be kicking themselves because England were ripe for the picking.

ebop wrote:True, a win is a win, even an ugly unconvincing win

Yep agree, it was just an awful match, devoid of a lot of skills. England deserve the kudos for hanging in there with such a motley crew and most of the poor work was SAs inability to even turn up, the backrow especially hardly figuring at all. Jones says hes ready for the ABs and I wonder in what context he means that, cos his team certainly aint ready if that was it.

ebop wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

ebop wrote:True, a win is a win, even an ugly unconvincing win

I am totally convinced England won. I have no doubts at all.

Yes, but SA were robbed of an opportunity to win that game. It was a very unconvincing win by England. Very unconvincing, I’m convinced of that. SA will be kicking themselves because England were ripe for the picking.

You could also say SA were presented with many other opportunities by the ref allowing them to throw in crookedly at most line-outs - when it was straight they more than often lost the ball.

But I'm sure we all know the result could easily have gone either way and few think England played well, although there were improvements in the 2nd half - not difficult when the 1st half was so poor of course.

So motm performance yesterday....Mark showed what all the falcon fans already knew.

For NZ ....do we go...

6 Shields
7 Wilson
8 Mercer

6 Wilson
7 Curry
8 Mercer

ebop wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

ebop wrote:True, a win is a win, even an ugly unconvincing win

I am totally convinced England won. I have no doubts at all.

Yes, but SA were robbed of an opportunity to win that game. It was a very unconvincing win by England. Very unconvincing, I’m convinced of that. SA will be kicking themselves because England were ripe for the picking.

Maybe they should have had a penalty. On the other hand they got a scrum penalty after their tight head had put his knee to the ground, unbalanced the English loosie and then drove through. These things even out.

The ref let dodgy tackles go throughout the game so why penalise just Farrell? He awarded a penalty against Itoje for jumping through the lineout but I am not sure how England were supposed to compete for the ball when the ball was repeatedly thrown somewhere between the SA line and scrum half.

Yeah the ref was a bit annoying with some of his interpretations but he was pretty consistent.

GeordieFalcon wrote:So motm performance yesterday....Mark showed what all the falcon fans already knew.

For NZ ....do we go...

6 Shields
7 Wilson
8 Mercer

6 Wilson
7 Curry
8 Mercer

I would prefer the latter, however dependent on the injury. If Curry is out, I would prefer Underhill to Shields.

Ah yes I forgot about Currys injury.

Yes I would prefer Underhill to shields.

6 Wilson
7 Underhill
8 Mercer

Has a good look to it

Based on the performance I am going to reset my expectations for England for this November. The SANZAR slam is still on but I think it won't be any more than a 5 point win for England v NZ. May to score the winner. Ford to start at 10.

If England are to beat NZ ( and I can't see it at all) they will need to make sure Johnny May gets the ball with less than 3 defenders on top of him .

He is the match winner supreme...give him a chance and he'll score. A few tries potentially went begging yesterday because they didn't give Johnny the ball early enough.

Ford absolutely has to come in at 10, Farrell to 12, for England to have any chance. Would prefer Brown in for Nowell, too, with Daly moving to the wing. The front and back row could do with changes as well, with Williams in for Sinckler and Mercer in for Shields.

Mark Wilson and Jack Nowell speaking this morning.

A dogid performance that should be respected given the broader context, however lets say for arguments sake it was a penalty at the end and RSA scored, then how would that have coloured everyones thoughts?
Personally I thought it was borderline and rightly we got the rub of the decision.
All that said, and for everything Farrell brings, I cannot see how our game will progress beyond the limit that his distribution applies.
If you play Farrell and I think he has to start, then it has to be from 12 with Ford or Cipriani and obviously Farrell hates Cips......

Cipriani ain't in the squad. Team started to gel in the 2nd half. It's up to Daly and slade to provide that space for Farrell and if Daly hears the call or a bit more awareness we may be talking of 2 great may tries. Fine margins.

Personally it's tempting after that 1st half to want to make sweeping changes but that's probably the worst thing we can do. New combos need time to gel.

Collapse2005 wrote:Based on the performance I am going to reset my expectations for England for this November. The SANZAR slam is still on but I think it won't be any more than a 5 point win for England v NZ. May to score the winner. Ford to start at 10.

If that performance gives you reason to be,ieve England will do the slam then you are being disingenuous. New Zealand is going to eat them alive.

7.5 I agree we shouldnt make sweeping changes ...I'm not sure there are many available to come in anyway...

But a couple of changes do need to take place. Shields is a big question mark for me. Mercers performance suggested he's worth a start. He made the hard yards (which people think he cant), he cleared out rucks well etc.

Teo is another one. Didn't do what he was brought in to do ...
Does he then drop out and Ford come back in?

I think our back 3 could be good. May is one of the best wingers in the world...Daly is talented but a work in progress at  15 and Nowell is an absolute workhorse.

Your back three was the most impressive of the whole team. May especially since I saw him in SA in June has really impressed. Nowell started to show his wares late in the second half.

I thought your midfield was poor defensively. Farrel is a class kicker.

Fundamentally Farrell just doesn't have the necessary creative side to his game that is needed to allow the side to develop to beat the AB and others.
If he were to play 10 then your 9 would have to offer more than Youngs does to offset the inflexible predictable attack that Farrell offers.
Te'o and Tuilagi are both outside players and so you're left with the dilema that Jones has to resolve.

I think the one place which you could easily look at the midfield. Farrell and slade have played together a few times now so know each others game. I don't think curry will be fit judging him limp off so for me I'd play shields underhill and mercer. Lawes should come back onto the neck with Tuilagi by the sounds of it.

Yeah I agree king. We would never beat new zealand with Farrell at 10.

For now I'd go with Ford and have both the big bys on the bench;
Youngs, Ford, Nowell, Farrell, Slade, May, Daly
Tuilagi, Te'o, Care

Very funny......

You have to score try's to beat the AB"s and you need more width with ball in hand and far less kicking.
If we kick so poorly against the AB's then we will undoubtedly pay the price.

Well there's a young 12 up at Kingston park who's been pretty impressive and can do the lot....May be not a debut v the Abs but worth a look for next games..

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think the one place which you could easily look at the midfield.  Farrell and slade have played together a few times now so know each others game. I don't think curry will be fit judging him limp off so for me I'd play shields underhill and  mercer. Lawes should come back onto the neck with Tuilagi by the sounds of it.

And drop Wilson?

Duty281 I agree with all of that except for bringing Brown back. Honestly I really rate Brown. There's few real classic full backs in the game, players who can control the space in front of them and position themselves so instinctively. Added to that hes fearless in the tackle and in the air.
The really harsh criticism I've always had of him is that he's not Ben Smith.
Ultimately you have to make the break at some point and Ive thought he should have been dropped atleast a year hence....and then Brown performs like he did in Africa!

Yeah I'd drop wilson. Think we need an 8 on the pitch and mercer deserves to start. Wilson was good but for me shields brings more in his defence and more in carrying and the lineout. The latter perhaps becomes more important if the ref decides to force straight throws!
Thanks king I did think it's important to set straight silly claims like he can't win matches from 10.

As it is o think jones will be thinking hard about bringing ford back but mainly as te'o looks understandably rusty.

Biltong wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Based on the performance I am going to reset my expectations for England for this November. The SANZAR slam is still on but I think it won't be any more than a 5 point win for England v NZ. May to score the winner. Ford to start at 10.

If that performance gives you reason to be,ieve England will do the slam then you are being disingenuous. New Zealand is going to eat them alive.

Its just a prediction Billtong. SA beat a full strength NZ side away but lost to a understrength England side away. England are due a win v NZ and it often comes when least expected. When England went on their 18 match unbeaten streak some of their wins were fairly unconvincing but they managed to win all the same. Apart from Farrell Englands defense was excellent which is what lead to SAs win v NZ earlier in the year. Lets see.

Off topic but did anyone see the shout out Flatman gave to the young Saracen lock Joel Kpoku?
Hopefully one for the future.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Based on the performance I am going to reset my expectations for England for this November. The SANZAR slam is still on but I think it won't be any more than a 5 point win for England v NZ. May to score the winner. Ford to start at 10.

If that performance gives you reason to be,ieve England will do the slam then you are being disingenuous. New Zealand is going to eat them alive.

Its just a prediction Billtong. SA beat a full strength NZ side away but lost to a understrength England side away. England are due a win v NZ and it often comes when least expected. When England went on their 18 match unbeaten streak some of their wins were fairly unconvincing but they managed to win all the same. Apart from Farrell Englands defense was excellent which is what lead to SAs win v NZ earlier in the year. Lets see.

I see your opinions fluctuate like the Dow Jones on a bad day.

You can't have it both ways, in one comment you deride the Boks as nobody to fear, but then when it suits your comment they are highly rated.

Pick one opinion and stick to it,or your credibility goes out the window.

Farrell will always limit the shape and potential of our attack. Dont think Saracens win their titles based on his limiting ability. They have a world class coach who drives a detailed power game, which is something England don't have the luxury to employ.
Ultimately we need more flexibility and CREATIVITY at 10 if we are to succeed in the international arena.
Thinking that one win a decade gives justification for Farrell negating our entire game plan is a superficial argument.
Farrell is a quality competitor, however his game has strengths and weaknesses and theres no getting away from it.

Just picking you up on the fact that clearly a lot of tries can be scored with Farrell in the team. Now clearly as with every rugby team overall balance is key. Daly at 15 now gives us different options to brown. One thing we do need with the current pack is tempo. We managed to do that in the 2nd half clearly we need that for the majority next week.

The reason to drop Te'o is nothing to do with rustiness and everything ti with that it doesnt work with Farrell at 10.
Te'o is and has had success as a finisher, however his selection was obviously to compensate for our expected lack of go forward in the pack. Realistically Farrell and Te'o are too predictable and stifle our wider game. Ford would be far better placed to work with Te'o given their complementary skill sets.
Thinking Slade and Daly can somehow create when they're receiving either slow or defended ball is again a mistake.

Didn't stifle our wider game at all in the 2nd half though. Is it possible that your being slightly unfair?

Biltong wrote:Your back three was the most impressive of the whole team. May especially since I saw him in SA in June has really impressed. Nowell started to show his wares late in the second half.

I thought your midfield was poor defensively. Farrel is a class kicker.

Odd comment. Daly was awful.

Biltong wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Based on the performance I am going to reset my expectations for England for this November. The SANZAR slam is still on but I think it won't be any more than a 5 point win for England v NZ. May to score the winner. Ford to start at 10.

If that performance gives you reason to be,ieve England will do the slam then you are being disingenuous. New Zealand is going to eat them alive.

Its just a prediction Billtong. SA beat a full strength NZ side away but lost to a understrength England side away. England are due a win v NZ and it often comes when least expected. When England went on their 18 match unbeaten streak some of their wins were fairly unconvincing but they managed to win all the same. Apart from Farrell Englands defense was excellent which is what lead to SAs win v NZ earlier in the year. Lets see.

I see your opinions fluctuate like the Dow Jones on a bad day.

You can't have it both ways, in one comment you deride the Boks as nobody to fear, but then when it suits your comment they are highly rated.

Pick one opinion and stick to it,or your credibility goes out the window.

The logic isnt bullet proof agreed but its just a prediction. Whats your prediction?

If England arent a good side than chances are SA arent either. You cant have it both ways either.

Exiledinborders wrote:

Biltong wrote:Your back three was the most impressive of the whole team. May especially since I saw him in SA in June has really impressed. Nowell started to show his wares late in the second half.

I thought your midfield was poor defensively. Farrel is a class kicker.

Odd comment. Daly was awful.  

Daly was bad under the high ball but he is quite a talented player as are Nowell and May. A few tweaks and thats a formidable back three IMO.

I think England expected to be on the back foot for the first half against a very physical SA pack, hence Farrell starting at 10. Ford would have been a liability in that first half, but more useful in the second half as the mobility of England's pack began to show.
Whether Ford starts against the AB's will depend on Eddie's confidence in the England pack being able to match the AB's from the off.

Exiledinborders wrote:

Biltong wrote:Your back three was the most impressive of the whole team. May especially since I saw him in SA in June has really impressed. Nowell started to show his wares late in the second half.

I thought your midfield was poor defensively. Farrel is a class kicker.

Odd comment. Daly was awful.  

Why odd?

It is my opinion about the collective back three and special mention of May and Nowell?

Collapse2005 wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Based on the performance I am going to reset my expectations for England for this November. The SANZAR slam is still on but I think it won't be any more than a 5 point win for England v NZ. May to score the winner. Ford to start at 10.

If that performance gives you reason to be,ieve England will do the slam then you are being disingenuous. New Zealand is going to eat them alive.

Its just a prediction Billtong. SA beat a full strength NZ side away but lost to a understrength England side away. England are due a win v NZ and it often comes when least expected. When England went on their 18 match unbeaten streak some of their wins were fairly unconvincing but they managed to win all the same. Apart from Farrell Englands defense was excellent which is what lead to SAs win v NZ earlier in the year. Lets see.

I see your opinions fluctuate like the Dow Jones on a bad day.

You can't have it both ways, in one comment you deride the Boks as nobody to fear, but then when it suits your comment they are highly rated.

Pick one opinion and stick to it,or your credibility goes out the window.

The logic isnt bullet proof agreed but its just a prediction. Whats your prediction?

If England arent a good side than chances are SA arent either. You cant have it both ways either.

For Pete's sake stop deflecting, where the hell did I hype up SA?

Whats your prediction Billtong?

For what

Englands SANZAR slam game 2 v NZ?