India v England 3rd ODI Debate.

First topic message reminder :

England win the toss and bat, in a must win game, after two big win's for India.
Both teams unchanged.

OK, England were well beaten in the first 2 ODI'd but they did'nt adress the fielding and extra's. That was the biggest difference between the two sides today. India kept it tight and gave only 3 extras away, 14 less than England.

we can be very tight in most scenarios, but in odi's away from home we feel it and make amatuer errors

we bowled and fielded poorly yet again!

exception to kp, who did field well, and took a quality catch!

Umesh Yadav is injured and out of the series, Abhimanyu Mithun comes in as replacement. Surely this should open the way for Varun Aaron?

England changes for next ODI?

Kieswetter and Dernbach out?

Is Buttler worth looking at in ODI? to open? Bairstow with gloves?

Discuss...

im a big fan of kieswetter, but unforutnately, ever since he has come into the england side, he dosent look like he can hack international cricket, and he has played on a lot of flat decks for england.

considering he came in to the team for his fast scoring capabilities, he has gone fully back in to his shell and doesnt even score at run a ball.. something which i would say was a minimum for his role in the side!
He seems to have limited shot making ability and has been found out, i would honestly give Buttler or Bairstow the gloves and shake it up, just to try it out. Whether we stick with the thought that a keeper should open or not is up for debate. i personally dont think we should stick to such rigid ideas of having a keeper that opens..
Maybe push Trott/Kp to open?
the problem is that there might have to be many changes to the line up IF we were to swap Kieswetter out.
Sounds like a bit of a witch hunt against Kies but his batting hasnt been good recently and he made some terrible errors which ultimately cost us the game..
Dernbach has got to be changed in my eyes, far too expensive and just not good enough at the moment for 50overs. I would draft in Onions to replace.

Cook
Kp
Trott
Bopara
Patel
Bairstow
Buttler
Bresnan
Swann
Onions
Finn

maybe?

to be honest it was harsh when davies was dropped in oz, he did nothing wrong.

cricketfan90 wrote:im a big fan of kieswetter, but unforutnately, ever since he has come into the england side, he dosent look like he can hack international cricket, and he has played on a lot of flat decks for england.

Next 2 matches

Cook
Bell
Trott
KP
Bopara
Patel
Bairstow(wk)
Borthwick
Meaker
Finn
Dernbach


Swanny and Bresnan are clearly jaded.So rest them.Pointless exhausting them further in a couple of dead rubbers.

1) Cook
2) KP
3) Bell
4) Kieswetter
5) Bopara
6) Samit
7) Bairstow (wk)
8) Borthwick
9) Meaker
10) Finn
11) Dernbach

And I'd like to add that Deadweight actually really impressed me yesterday

Kieswetter played quite well in England this summer in the ODI's they had there. He has failed in these 3 games, but started to look a bit better yesterday and I think he should get at least till the end of the series and then maybe against Pakistan aswell! That said, I am a fan of KP opening. I thought it was a good decision in the WC before he went home injured so I wouldn't mind seeing it tried again.

Cook
KP
Trott
Bopara
Bairstow
Buttler
Patel
Swann
Borthwick/Bresnan
Bresnan/Dernbach
Finn

But don't write Kieswetter off yet!

Kieswetter didn't fail yesterday, a score of almost 40 is fully acceptable in an ODI, especially when it is got at a run a ball.

I liked KP opening too.

To be brutally honest, they shouldn't have made Cook captain, as it makes him undroppable. I am all for him being future Test captain, but in ODI's he doesn't really cut it with the bat against the better attacks.

KP and Kies would be an exciting opening partnership, would it not.

Agreed about Cook. He should have had a run in the side as a non captain, to see if he cut it in ODI cricket before being appointed captain. Got to stick with him now as he hasn't done badly. KP and Kies would be an exciting opening pair, and they would compliment each other well as they score in different areas with Kies being off side and KP being very leg side. If they opened it would mean Trott could bat at three and play his natural game.

A top 6 of:

KP
Kies
Trott
Morgan
Bopara
Bairstow/Buttler

That looks very destructive to my eyes.

Shame for India that Yadav has been ruled out of the series through injury, he started to pose a few problems for them.

Breaking news is that Big Bres has been fined a part of his match fee for showing dissent to the umpire yesterday. He was fined 7.5% off his match fee. Not 10%, not 5%, not even 8% or 7%. He was fined 7.5%. That extra 0.5% of his match fee will really hammer the punishment home and he won't be chatting back to umpires again. He got lucky though, they didn't fine 7.75% of his match fee which would have really shown him.

They just made it 7.5% rather than 10% so its more complicated for his tax bill

The ICC hit him where it hurts.

Put Bell in place of Bopara. Bring Broad and Anderson back and you've got yourself a tidy side, Jdizzle.

Cook scores FAR more runs than Kies at a similar rate.

Disagree shanky. Looking at there ODI stats, Cook's average is 9 runs higher but Kieswetter's strike rate is 92 compared to 78 for Cook. Kieswetter scores faster, although Cook's is skewed a bit by the start of his ODI career when he was really poor. If Cook averaged 40 at a strike rate of 78, I would take Kieswetter averaging 35 (it is 29 at the moment) at a strike rate 92 over him, especially with Trott coming in at 3 who can steady the ship if Kies goes early.

Fists, I need Bopara in to give me the sixth bowler option otherwise I have to go in with only 5 specialists.


Kies
KP
Trott
Mogs
Bopara
Bairstow
Patel
Broad
Bres
Swann
Finn

I like the look of that side to be honest. Hypothetically that would be my team, but obviously Cook will come in to it.

You wouldnt want two players who score 40 at .8 or two who score 30 at 1.0
Youd want a pair like Cook and Kesswetter, or ideally two very good players who scored 40 at 1.0
but its hard to pick them if they dont exist

Whats Cook score/strike rate been like since he became capatin, CBA to look it up?

Yeah, whatever opening pair you take, let's assume it will remain Cook and Kies, and compare to others like Sehwag/Tendulkar or Warner/Watson or most others it just isn't very good yet!

Na, I can't be bothered to look it up but at a guess he would probably be averaging about 40 at sr of low 80's. At a guess.

we do need to really overhaul our odi side IMO

1.Kieswetter should go. Davies or Bairstow should take the gloves
2.Ian Bell. Does he belong in the side, or do we move on from him?
3.Lack of a seam bowling all rounder. No colly, or freddie, or dimi. Do we need a seam bowling all rounder?
4.We need a settled keeper and give them a long run, does that mean kiwesewtter will go or not..
5.Is it time to blood the youngsetrs (hales,buttler,borthwick etc)
6.Another spinner that is better than Patel to back up swanny, (borthwick)

Cook's average since recallis over 50.
Kies average since recall is barely 30.
S/R Cook 95
Kies 98
I know who I'd rather have.

cricketfan90 wrote:we do need to really overhaul our odi side IMO

1.Kieswetter should go. Davies or Bairstow should take the gloves
2.Ian Bell. Does he belong in the side, or do we move on from him?
3.Lack of a seam bowling all rounder. No colly, or freddie, or dimi. Do we need a seam bowling all rounder?
4.We need a settled keeper and give them a long run, does that mean kiwesewtter will go or not..
5.Is it time to blood the youngsetrs (hales,buttler,borthwick etc)
6.Another spinner that is better than Patel to back up swanny, (borthwick)

1) Davies
2) Yes, at 3 instead of Trott
3) Bresnan? (or Luke Wright)
4) Davies
5) Yes , all must be given their chance over the next few series
6) Patel is showing some promise and should be given a run, Borthwick, Briggs and Monty in reserve

Kieswetter against Sri Lanka, in Eng, 2011 - Average 51, sr 97
Kieswetter against India, in Eng, 2011 - Average 27, sr 117

Cook against Sri Lanka, in Eng, 2011 - Average 74, sr 96
Cook against India, in Eng, 2011 - Average 42, sr 94

Will comment more later when I get the chance as I have a lecture now! 5pm on a Friday is disgusting.

Thats horrific JD, almost the weekend tho!

to be honest, we have been outplayed in all parts of the game, we havent turned up yet.

I praise Deadweight and no one comments?

Gregers wrote:Thats horrific JD, almost the weekend tho!

Tell me about mate. Vile. Had my cricket initiation last night, so I am still recovering from that! You must be suffering from something aswell, praising KP earlier...

I know I'm still feeling the after affects of this cold/plague I've had.

Considering whether to buy iNfamous2 or Arkham City tomorrow...

Gregers wrote:I praise Deadweight and no one comments?

You praise him and still call him deadweight

Well that is his name

I still think that its odd that you call KP deadweight Gregers, he is an excellent player who is really starting to find form again. He had a very good test series agains India not that long ago

But in ODIs he's done literally nothing for 24 months, regularly gets out at the wrong time should have been dropped on numerous occasions... I find it weird that you all think he's great!

Gregers wrote:But in ODIs he's done literally nothing for 24 months, regularly gets out at the wrong time should have been dropped on numerous occasions... I find it weird that you all think he's great!

Test Cricket is more important though.

I didnt say he was great Gregers, i said that he is an excellent player. He has had a very rough patch, alot due to injury but he is still one of the most feared batsmen in the world.

eirebilly wrote:I didnt say he was great Gregers, i said that he is an excellent player. He has had a very rough patch, alot due to injury but he is still one of the most feared batsmen in the world.

He has the potential to be a great though.

Not sure about that shanky, he doesnt appear to have the mental strength required to be a true great.

eirebilly wrote:Not sure about that shanky, he doesnt appear to have the mental strength required to be a true great.

In Test matches.
He averages over 50,remember and has 3 double hundreds.If he can maintain his average of 50 over another 5 yrs then he will be a true great.Needs to perform in the subcontinent though.

Time will tell then shanky. I do abire his style though

i think its very good signs for our odi side, that KP is coming back into form.

I would be tempted by a top four of Cook, Bell, KP and Trott in any order. I think those 4 batsmen should regularly be able to get us to around 150-2 after 30 overs in most situations. Then they can look to push on while we bring in clean hitters to clear the ropes later in the innings.

The question is, who do we play 5-11? On a normal day, that number 5 should be Morgan. We should have 1 of our big-hitting wicket keepers in at 6 (Bairstow, Kieswetter or Buttler) and with that line-up we need 5 bowlers who can be trusted to complete their full allocation of 10 overs, so that might not be Jade Dernbach at the moment. I think Patel at 7 works as long as he continues to work on his bowling and his fielding, with Swann, Broad and Anderson as the other bowlers. I think the final choice is between Bresnan and Finn. I'm a big fan of Bresnan, but I think Finn has really shown his wicket-taking ability, and wouldn't be averse to seeing Timbo rested for the next ODI series.

So for these last two matches I would probably go for:

Cook (C)
Pietersen
Trott
Bell
Kieswetter (wk)
Bairstow
Patel
Bresnan
Swann
Dernbach
Finn

And then look to bring back Morgan, Anderson and Broad for the next series (in place of one of the wicket-keepers, Bresnan (rested) and Dernbach (dropped)). I would definitely look to give Buttler a go in the next series (maybe not a full series, but a couple of games) unless the incumbent wicket-keeper is tearing attacks apart, and I would possibly also look to rest Swann and give Borthwick a run-out, so we can get Swann back fully recharged.

i dont think in a odi game, you can have bell, trott and cook all in the top 4 to be honest.

Something a little different. 6 specialist bowlers. 3 good finishers. Swann as captain.

1 Cook - s/r 78.59 2 100s
2 Swann - s/r 89.35 14 l/o 50s (econ 4.47 s/r 33.4)
3 Trott - s/r 78.58 3 100s
4 Pietersen - s/r 87.21 7 100s
5 Morgan - s/r 83.24 4 100s
6 Buttler - list A average 71.16 s/r 142.57 - 24 inns 12 not outs
7 Woakes - list A strike rate 91.15 (econ 5.22 s/r 27.7)
8 Broad - econ 5.23 (econ 5.23 s/r 31.0)
9 Shahzad - (econ 5.00 s/r 34.5)
10 Finn - (econ 5.37 s/r 49.6)
11 Anderson - (econ 5.04 s/r 36.7)

why wont they just give borthwick a go!?

Probably because England aren't going to play three spinners and there is noway in hell he is a better option than Swann, and would Borthwick have bashed 71 off 40 balls and then bowled 10 overs for 50 last game?! No, I doubt it. Samit is better than him at the moment.

I don't get your fascination with Borthwick. He isn't exactly banging the door down to get in the side. He took a 5 for in a warm up game yes, but his List A stats are poor with the ball. People like Buttler and Taylor have much stronger reasons to feel aggrieved that they are not in the ODI side.

cricketfan90 wrote:i dont think in a odi game, you can have bell, trott and cook all in the top 4 to be honest.

i agree - and personally i think even 2 could be to many