Keith Earls and the number 13

First topic message reminder :

So Munster have named Keith Earls at outside centre against Treviso. This is now Earls' third match in a row where he has played 13 and looks set to continue this against Castres and Northampton. Given his past experience here for Munster, Ireland and Lions is he a certainty to play there against Wales?

Rodders, nothing wrong with Cave. As mentioned now about 6 times, no problems with him playing for Ireland. Just saying this weekend was nice chance to contrast the two 13s for Munster and Ulster. However circumstances mean that we must take Caves achievements if any against Tigers with a pinch of salt.

You are a bad man Stag

I feel like a Banjo.

Well, I think if Cave has a shocker few will let that slide! No Cave will not be up against the quality of player he might have been but he still can turn in a dominant performance and put what pressure he can on Earls. Who I want to see being really effective and hitting his tackles hard, ala the one he put in chasing a kick on saturday, beautiful to watch!

But I'd also like 4 Irish provincial victories. Indeed, knowing Connacht they are probably out of sheer badness going to go and beat Toulouse on their own patch, for pure shoites and giggles.

roddersm wrote:I feel like a Banjo.

rodders, you've just reminded me of an Irish (Gaeilge) tongue twister.

A pint to the 1st one to get it, to be paid over the Welsh match weekend.

Bet of the whole weekend. 11/10 - Connacht to lose by less than 25 points.

Debaters sums up my point well. If he does well so be it but this game could have been a major game in his claim for the shirt.

debaters1 wrote:

roddersm wrote:I feel like a Banjo.

rodders, you've just reminded me of an Irish (Gaeilge) tongue twister.

A pint to the 1st one to get it, to be paid over the Welsh match weekend.

An easy one.

Ta bean ag Joe
Ta banjo ag Joe
Ta banjo ag bhean Joe
B'fhearr go deo Joe ar an mbanjo
Ná bean Joe ar an mbanjo go deo.

Interesting that the quality of Earls opposition isn't deemed relevent to his claim for the shirt?

To be paid in full in a couple of weeks Stag!

Can't believe this discussion is still going on. The best Cave can hope for is getting in the 22 but Earls, McFadden and Fitz are ahead of him. He is not going to make it on current form and at best is in the same group as griffin and O'Malley.

Earls is by far (and am not talking metres here) so far ahead of the other contenders its not even a contest.

DOD wrote:Earls is by far (and am not talking metres here) so far ahead of the other contenders its not even a contest.

In Declan Kidneys mind yes but in reality he isn't in the same league as Cave as a centre. The last time they went head to head at 13 Cave had Earls eating out of his hands. Cave was ahead of Earls at every representative level but unfortunately when it comes to National level the coaches are too concerned about appeasing one eyed fans and journalists than picking the best players available.

DOD wrote:Can't believe this discussion is still going on. The best Cave can hope for is getting in the 22 but Earls, McFadden and Fitz are ahead of him. He is not going to make it on current form and at best is in the same group as griffin and O'Malley.

Earls is by far (and am not talking metres here) so far ahead of the other contenders its not even a contest.

I agree. Totally. But only for a short while. Class will out. Time will tell. It is O' Malley's to win or lose. He must keep growing at Leinster. And under Schmidt, the boy is progressing at the speed of nutrinas.
Earls has been tried and tested at 13. He is the best in situ, but he will be bypassed. The wing is the place for Earls. He doesnt have to think as much there. The boy simply doesnt have the brain to be a top class 13.

Gibson wrote:The boy simply doesnt have the brain to be a top class 13.

And Tommy Bowe lacks the pace to be a top class winger. We all heard that one.

Gibson I think eventually O'Malley will be the front runner at 13. He has the brains and the skills. However the ease with which he has been brushed off in the tackle recently means he still has a lot to work on before he can be considered for anything beyond the wolfhounds. Griffin took him to the cleaners recently.

Cave is the most complete and best option available until Spence and O'Malley can step up to the plate.

Earls is a red herring and always has been. He is the centre equivilant of Tony Buckley.

You can take a dog to water but you can't teach him to swim.

Time heals all wounds Rodders and hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard.

Buckley was one of the most natural propping talents we've seen but he only took rugby seriously aged 29. He is into his 30s now and has never been full choice for a province.

Earls is a model professional, still younger than others think. He will do fine. I remember Gibbo when you used slobber over Earls and claim he was BOD reincarnated.

Cave is the most complete 13 in Irish rugby, after BOD.
He knows the position better than any of the alternatives below.

O'Malley, Spence and Griffin are still on a learning curve.
McFadden and Fitzgerald have yet to convince as 13.
Bowe isn't a 13.

That leaves Earls who I would put in the team before Cave, just not as a 13.

red_stag wrote:Time heals all wounds Rodders and hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard.

Exactly why Cave is the best player around.

red_stag wrote:Time heals all wounds Rodders and hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard.

Buckley was one of the most natural propping talents we've seen but he only took rugby seriously aged 29. He is into his 30s now and has never been full choice for a province.

Earls is a model professional, still younger than others think. He will do fine. I remember Gibbo when you used slobber over Earls and claim he was BOD reincarnated.

I did Stag. I had massive hopes for him replacing BOD. And I still think he is a amazing natural talent. Its just his rugby brain has not evolved along with his talent. He seems clueless at times. Hope that answers that one.

Cave has been longer playing for Ulster in the PRO12 and HC than O Malley has for Leinster. Hes proven himself as a great club player. But, he's not the One.

Sorry Ulster fans, he's just not. But, there is no harm in dreaming.

Of course O Malley could take a dip and go the way of Cave - always on the perhiphery of the Irish squad. But, having watched them both closely, this and last season, my bet is he wont.

Even with Pienaar in situ, my money is on Paul Marshall to make it. Really needs to challenge one of the best SH's in rugby to do it. But if he does...

If Cave was from Leinster he'd be the first name on the Irish teamsheet and no one would have heard of O'Malley. FACT.

O'Malley is possibly the best beach tag rugby prospect in Ireland but until he stops getting trampled on then thats as far as he'll go.

Oh stop with this poor ol Ulster getting shafted by the South bollox.

Ferris and Best were Irelands two best players at the RWC. FACT. Bowe has dipped and is there on rep now. Trimble is a better player and that should be recognised.
Paddy Wallace would not get a game for the Faroe Islands national side, yet Kidney still persists with him.

Ye have a 3rd of the team. There are 4 provinces. Stop with this bias already.

Lets all grow up here shall we?

Personally I like Marshall and Pienaar as Ulsters half back pairing. Challenge both players to step out of their comfort zone.

Gibson wrote: Cave has been longer playing for Ulster in the PRO12 and HC than O Malley has for Leinster. Hes proven himself as a great club player. But, he's not the One.

...

Depends by what you mean mean as the One.

If you mean the long term replacement for BOD you are, probably, right.
Either O'Malley or Spence, in a couple of years, will probably come through and grab the jersey.

However in the hear and now he is the most complete and fit 13 in Irish rugby.
As such he should be very much in the frame.

Gibson wrote:Ye have a 3rd of the team. There are 4 provinces. Stop with this bias already.

Bowe plays for the Ospreys is touch and go on current form. If Paddy Wallace even makes the extended training squad then I'll cry.

Ferris and Best are the two best in their positions by a country mile and Trimble and court are there or there abouts on merit.

None of this has anything to do with the fact that Cave is the best 13 in the country. Its not about quotas but selecting the best players.

The reality is that the only Munster players who should be near the Irish squad on merit are O'Connell, Peter O'Mahoney, Conor Murray, Donnacha Ryan and Niall Ronan. Everything else they've achieved so far this year has been built around a dominant overseas front row and they've been playing like drains but that won't wash with a large proportion of Irish fans. Sorry but its true...getting pummelled for 75 min and kicking a last minute drop goal should not be the irish game plan.

Paddy Wallace has a Central Contract he will be a defo for the Extended squad

geoff998rugby wrote:Paddy Wallace has a Central Contract he will be a defo for the Extended squad

I know and I'm definitely going to cry then....sorry but that is a joke. Paddy is a decent and underrated player but there are far better players around now at 10 and 12. There is no justification for wasting a central contract on him. Its madness.

Geoff, what say you to the rumours (rumours I made up) that the only reason Pienaar was able to get a 2 year deal is that he is going to be playing primarily at #10 - a position that Munster and Leinster each have two IQ players.

red_stag wrote:Geoff, what say you to the rumours (rumours I made up) that the only reason Pienaar was able to get a 2 year deal is that he is going to be playing primarily at #10 - a position that Munster and Leinster each have two IQ players.

Ulster have 3 IQ 10's.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Gibson wrote: Cave has been longer playing for Ulster in the PRO12 and HC than O Malley has for Leinster. Hes proven himself as a great club player. But, he's not the One.

...

Depends by what you mean mean as the One.

If you mean the long term replacement for BOD you are, probably, right.
Either O'Malley or Spence, in a couple of years, will probably come through and grab the jersey.

However in the hear and now he is the most complete and fit 13 in Irish rugby.
As such he should be very much in the frame.

Geoff, hard to argue with that. There is only one real way to find out and I would not be averse if Kidney brought the lad into the squad and gave him his chance. If he takes it - then I'll eat all the humble-pie ye can throw at me. Same goes for O Malley. But, will Kidney do the right thing? Or will he just move some of the experienced plethora of talented wingers we already have - inside? (Bowe, Earls & Fitz). My bet is on the latter.

roddersm wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Paddy Wallace has a Central Contract he will be a defo for the Extended squad

I know and I'm definitely going to cry then....sorry but that is a joke. Paddy is a decent and underrated player but there are far better players around now at 10 and 12. There is no justification for wasting a central contract on him. Its madness.

+1.
Its a waste of a squad place. He will not use him. So why not give youth a chance to bloom - even just training with the squad?
And asking Murphy to stay on stand-by, shows the way he is thinking. Backwards - as per.

Our biggest roadblock to progression is the coach. Not the players.

Gibson wrote:Our biggest roadblock to progression is the coach. Not the players.

+ 100....and its not as if the central contract even benefits Paddy. He hasn't a mission of featuring so why not just let him finish out his career at Ulster, playing rugby, where he's still a valuable player rather than holding tackle bags and warming the bench for Ireland.

McFadden is a ready made replacement, with Marshall in the pipeline and the likes of Madigan, Keatley, Whitten, Spence, O'Malley etc. would all benefit far more from the experience and probably offer more too.

Oh and give O'Brien the central contract FFS.

hmmm, Earls probably has the 13 jersey.
All this stuff about Kidney ignoring Cave, is it not the case that he has come through underage level and played well up to Wolfhounds. When he chance to get in around the main ireland squad arose, he got a knock didn't he?
So coming back from that he will be Wolfhounds for a cap or two and while possibly not in the matchday squad, will be in the extended squad so an injury to someone else might give him his opportunity.

EOM needs to prove himself at Wolfhounds level, a level where he will be behind Cave and probably looking at bench appearances. Those games will determine who is the heir apparent come summer time.

Cave has proved himself for the wolfhounds on numerous occaisions, as recently as the summer. He was ahead of everyone else at age grade rugby and has only slipped back because of injury. He is still only 24.

I don't think that Kidney is ignoring Cave, rather any alternative to Earls.

It's the blatant double standards by some of the fans and media that is the problem.

I think you are very harsh on paddy. He was excellent against Clermont (roddersi don't know what game you watched) and had been in good form prior to that. If he has a good couple of games against Leicester/Clermont I would have him in contention.

Other than that I don't like it when we bring players back to fitness in internationals. McFadden would be my pick at 12 until Luke Marshall comes through in a year or so.


The unfortunate thing for cave (yawn by the way) is that he either starts or s out of the squad.

Gibson wrote: But, will Kidney do the right thing? Or will he just move some of the experienced plethora of talented wingers we already have - inside? (Bowe, Earls & Fitz). My bet is on the latter.

I agree with that - I am sure we will see a winger at 13 and that winger wil lbe Earls.

I just have this old fashion opinion that you should play the best player available in a postion in that position.
You should not shoe horn players into other positions to get 'the best XV' on the pitch.

Ulster made exactly the same mistake playing Spence rrather than Whitten at 12 recently.

The Paddy Wallace contract says to me that Kidney has no faith in the 10's available below ROG and Sexton. Paddy is still our 3rd fly half.

What does baffle me is our 3rd prop - Court not getting a central contract.

geoff998rugby wrote:The Paddy Wallace contract says to me that Kidney has no faith in the 10's available below ROG and Sexton. Paddy is still our 3rd fly half.

That says to me that Kidney is a clown. Humphreys, Keatley and Madigan are all better 10's. Paddy has been a bit part player all his career, why would that chnage now?

Its a waste of a contract and it should go to a player who is actually important for Ireland.

Stand I thought Paddy was pretty poor against Clermont, in fact the back play was totally abject bar D'arcy's break. Ihumph and Paddy were at fault for us crabbing sideways. Hes a good play but not good enough for Ireland at this stage unless there are injuries.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Gibson wrote: But, will Kidney do the right thing? Or will he just move some of the experienced plethora of talented wingers we already have - inside? (Bowe, Earls & Fitz). My bet is on the latter.

I agree with that - I am sure we will see a winger at 13 and that winger wil lbe Earls.

I just have this old fashion opinion that you should play the best player available in a postion in that position.
You should not shoe horn players into other positions to get 'the best XV' on the pitch.

Ulster made exactly the same mistake playing Spence rrather than Whitten at 12 recently.

The Paddy Wallace contract says to me that Kidney has no faith in the 10's available below ROG and Sexton. Paddy is still our 3rd fly half.

What does baffle me is our 3rd prop - Court not getting a central contract.

Oh man. Spot on.

....and the best 12 is McFadden and the best 13 is Cave so what is the debate about?

No one is arguing that Jonny Sexton should play TH prop?.....

geoff998rugby wrote:

Gibson wrote: But, will Kidney do the right thing? Or will he just move some of the experienced plethora of talented wingers we already have - inside? (Bowe, Earls & Fitz). My bet is on the latter.

I agree with that - I am sure we will see a winger at 13 and that winger wil lbe Earls.

I just have this old fashion opinion that you should play the best player available in a postion in that position.
You should not shoe horn players into other positions to get 'the best XV' on the pitch.

Ulster made exactly the same mistake playing Spence rrather than Whitten at 12 recently.

The Paddy Wallace contract says to me that Kidney has no faith in the 10's available below ROG and Sexton. Paddy is still our 3rd fly half.

What does baffle me is our 3rd prop - Court not getting a central contract.

did court not sign a 2 year contract at the same time as Paddy?

He did but there was no Central Contract element in it

That is why it was reported Court 2+0 and Wallace 1+1

Read somewhere that the number of central contract is being reduced to 18

At Ulster next year it is my understanding that the only Central Contracts are Best, Ferris, Trimble and Wallace

Oh right. I assumed because it said ulster & ireland in the report that it was central. So we have 2 centrally contracted props?

How are things in Cloud Cuckoo Land lads?

McFadden a better 12 than Wallace indeed. I often wonder what game yis are all watching.

Standulstermen wrote:Oh right. I assumed because it said ulster & ireland in the report that it was central. So we have 2 centrally contracted props?

Must be because if Court doesn't have a central contract there is no way any prop other than Ross and Healy would hace one.

Notch I actually think 12 is McFadden best position but he needs a run of games there for Leinster. I do agree that to say he is better than Wallace is at least questionable ?

I would also add I think Ireland have far less options coming through at 12 than we do at 13. Luke Marshall kicking on next year would be a big boost.

Paddy Wallace is effectively been paid to show up at international camp - otherwise (like say Geordan Murphy) he wouldn't be bothered. Gordon D'Arcy hasn't had an international contract for about 2 years now, but he will show up because he knows he has a good chance of starting. Paddy doesn't have a realistic chance of starting or even making the bench, unless there are a couple of injuries.

As for replacing him with the pletoria of young OHs - its only going to be frustrating for them watching because they are a long way behind the two OHs. I would not be a happy person if any of Keatley, Madigan or Humphs were sitting on the bench against England in Twickers. Guaranteed that either of ROG or Sexton would be carted off.

I think it's very simple.

Either Darren Cave or Keith Earls starts at 13. Cave is a better defender, has a better rugby brain and has better handling and passing than Earls. Earls is a more accomplished finisher, a better kicker of the ball and has a lot more pace than Cave.

Paddy Wallace or Gordon D'Arcy must partner them, because we need continuity at 12 with BOD missing. We created this situation for ourselves by not blooding Earls or anyone else properly, but there it is. We have two proven inside centres who are just shy of international class and one unproven player in McFadden who hasn't been able to reach the same standard as them as of yet in his career.

I believe we need pace at 13 so I would pick Earls. But then I believe he needs a more creative player inside him because he doesn't have a great rugby brain, he doesn't look for the pass and besides- you want someone who can put him in space, who can put him through gaps.

So it's obvious we should start with Wallace and Earls.

Sin é wrote:Paddy Wallace is effectively been paid to show up at international camp - otherwise (like say Geordan Murphy) he wouldn't be bothered. Gordon D'Arcy hasn't had an international contract for about 2 years now, but he will show up because he knows he has a good chance of starting. Paddy doesn't have a realistic chance of starting or even making the bench, unless there are a couple of injuries.

As for replacing him with the pletoria of young OHs - its only going to be frustrating for them watching because they are a long way behind the two OHs. I would not be a happy person if any of Keatley, Madigan or Humphs were sitting on the bench against England in Twickers. Guaranteed that either of ROG or Sexton would be carted off.

Sad, but true. At the minute anyway. Who will be the 3rd OH? If Madigan is allowed kick for Leinster in the PRO12, then he is in prime position. The rest of his game is more than complete.
He said in an interview, that he feels he can, is ready and really wants to do it now, but bows to Schmidt's decision and will bide his time.

Having Mcfadden and Nacewa kick while he is on the field - against lesser opposition, is a mistake, imo. He must get that chance soon and maybe our Deccie will start insisting on it.

Im sure Joe knows best and will ease him into it soon. Do it against the likes of Aironi & Connacht - at least

Off topic, but did you see what Alan Quinlan had to say about Brian McLaughlin Gibbo?

Brian McLaughlin is a coach with a forensic mind and a brilliant knowledge of all the small things that go into making a difference on the pitch. When Eddie O’Sullivan brought him in as a skills coach with Ireland, he used to teach us so much about the finer points of the game.

His expertise at the breakdown was phenomenal and he taught a whole generation of Ireland rugby players things that we had never seen before when it came to that area. We learned smarter ways to clear out rucks, better techniques for removing opposition players from in and around the breakdown. I was always impressed with his knowledge and passion for the game.

Notch wrote:How are things in Cloud Cuckoo Land lads?

McFadden a better 12 than Wallace indeed. I often wonder what game yis are all watching.

Oh, oh Here comes son o'Paddy, yer all in trouble now

Notch wrote:Off topic, but did you see what Alan Quinlan had to say about Brian McLaughlin Gibbo?

Brian McLaughlin is a coach with a forensic mind and a brilliant knowledge of all the small things that go into making a difference on the pitch. When Eddie O’Sullivan brought him in as a skills coach with Ireland, he used to teach us so much about the finer points of the game.

His expertise at the breakdown was phenomenal and he taught a whole generation of Ireland rugby players things that we had never seen before when it came to that area. We learned smarter ways to clear out rucks, better techniques for removing opposition players from in and around the breakdown. I was always impressed with his knowledge and passion for the game.

I really rate Quinnys opinion. He has been there and seen it all at the highest level. Pulls no punches and is one of the most knowledgable, unbiased, Irish commentators (like O Shea) - out there. So, it must be true. He's a rookie manager still learning his craft tho. Ulster have Humphreys for that. I am sure he guided Mclaughlin a lot when the chips were down. As it should be.

Notch wrote:I think it's very simple.

Either Darren Cave or Keith Earls starts at 13. Cave is a better defender, has a better rugby brain and has better handling and passing than Earls. Earls is a more accomplished finisher, a better kicker of the ball and has a lot more pace than Cave.

Paddy Wallace or Gordon D'Arcy must partner them, because we need continuity at 12 with BOD missing. We created this situation for ourselves by not blooding Earls or anyone else properly, but there it is. We have two proven inside centres who are just shy of international class and one unproven player in McFadden who hasn't been able to reach the same standard as them as of yet in his career.

I believe we need pace at 13 so I would pick Earls. But then I believe he needs a more creative player inside him because he doesn't have a great rugby brain, he doesn't look for the pass and besides- you want someone who can put him in space, who can put him through gaps.

So it's obvious we should start with Wallace and Earls.

Disagree with the parts in bold. Bollix to continuity you pick the best players.

McFadden has played better than either Wallace or D'arcy this season and has played with Sexton and Cave before so there's your continuity.

Earls might be faster than Cave (who's quicker than people are making out), but Cave gets in great positions and is also an excellent finisher, and unlike Earls is a creater too.

I wonder how many of those who don't rate Cave have actually watched Ulster play recently? I think the only people who can make an opinion on who is best at 13 currently, or any position, are those who have watched all 4 provinces play (for most of their games at least). I am fairly certain quite a few people here haven't watched much more than their own province honestly, from the comments.

I don't think Cave will be the long term option at 13, but I don't think Earls will be either. Nor do I think EOM looks like the next 13, not sure why people think that, he looks dangerous but he is very shaky in defence and needs a lot of work. Griffin looks a better prospect, as does Spence. They look like the future to me, with a clever 12 inside them.