Ireland post mortem

First topic message reminder :

Just back from the game.

Firstly - barnes messed up big time for the last penalty. Has to be lifting involved in a tip tackle which there wasn't.

Secondly- Wales probably had a few calls go against them so overall I feel things evened themselves out.

Thirdly- I though Wales were much the better team and were value for a 5-10 point win in my book.

None of which were what I wanted to talk through. I am posting in a reactionary mood so forgive me if I seem too emotional but to me I think the time has come for a change. We have been described as a team in a 'steady transition', not being too wayward with caps and building the next side gradually. Is there a point to building the next side gradually if the present side isn't doing the business though?

I thought today that the difference in Wales approach was stark in the 2nd half. Roberts had got no joy throughout so they switched the attack to north with devastating effect. I have seen no semblance of game plan, no hint of playing what's in front of you or anything to suggest Ireland have remotely half the nous that Wales have.

The players seem inhibited and for me only rob Kearney comes out of the game with any sense of credit (maybe Rory best too). To my mind we are relying on brute force and ignorance and when that doesn't work we have no plan B. I can't recall seeing tommy Bowe having a poorer game. I think it is telling that the two progressive subs weren't used ( as far as I could see). I think the question needs asked that what can Ton McGahan, Joe Schmidt and Brian McLaughlin get out of these guys at provincial level that we aren't seeing at international level.

for me a telling situation was ferris taking a poor up and under in the 2nd half. For ulster he would build up a head of steam and plough into/through the first defender. Today he passed. There is something seriously wrong in the international set up IMO.

For my welsh counterparts again this is more an Irish bitching session and I don't wish to detract from what was a deserved victory. Best of luck and here's to a GS cider against France. To my Irish friends I apologise if I am being overly harsh or emotional but that result has ruined my week and I am gutted and depressed.

Gibson wrote:Have you goys not picked the team yet!? Deccies waiting for input lads. Sheesh.

Same as yesterday with Earls at 13 and McFadden at 12. Donnacha Ryan to start.

Watched the hilights again. My feeling is the same. It was a fantastic game between two top quality sides. The defeat is heartbreaking , very difficult to take. We had chances to win but came up short again. The size of the 3/4's was the difference.

We need to get better, we can get better. The tournament is out of our hands now but we need to win next week. Three from 5 is not acceptable.

However this is one defeat and a narrow one. It is not a disaster and in a 50/50 game someone has to lose. The next 4 games will determine how good both us and Wales are but I believe we are the best sides in the competition.

From a welshman and no Im not gloating it was a great match.

1. Strength in depth at tighthead.
2. Play a genuine openside.
3. Identify a centre partnership that works then stick with it and allow it to develop. Forget about BOD now!
4. Use the blitz defence when the opposition backs are massive so they dont build up speed. that one is so basic that declan must know this?

Personally as I said before the game, Bowe at outside centre would have worried me more than any other pairing you could have come up with.

Flynnio,
I can get all the BBC and ITV channels via some software, but RTE protect their crappy little station like it's precious.
They should be giving it out to Europe free. Promotion for Ireland and advertising would pay for it. Used use an Irish IP address, but they closed that option down. So sorry man, I cant get it.

You're not missing much. No revelations on there.

I wish I was drinking what you were drinking over the weekend Rodders... I watched it and as I watched it I could see the same repetition of the same weaknesses we showed against Wales last time. And again they just turned up and exploited them. I said a few weeks before the game that if Wales could show up and do the very same thing to us, at home, with those long months for Kidney and his coaches to iron out the issues and attack Wales with our own blitz game, then we were in serious trouble as lessons will then be shown to have been ignored.

For me it didn't happen; but something seems to have happened as seasoned rugby watchers seem to be divided on the game they saw. Some people saw a positive game all round, some saw another beat-up by the Welsh. It's curious about the reactions and the games we witnessed whilst all looking at the same one.

Anyway...what's done is done. It's over and at least it made the neutrals happy. One thing about Ireland, we always seem to be involved in the games of the year! Sometimes good, often bad. But we'll give this coaching team another reprieve - a short one, and plan what we might do now, against France.

I don't doubt that we could(not confident) beat France at Paris. But I think it'll be a game that bears no relationship to this one in intensity levels if we do. And then we'll all say, why could we not have shown just a little more invention in the Welsh game to tip the balance and have us on a run for another GS.

Gibson wrote:Flynnio,
I can get all the BBC and ITV channels via some software, but RTE protect their crappy little station like it's precious.
They should be giving it out to Europe free. Promotion for Ireland and advertising would pay for it. Used use an Irish IP address, but they closed that option down. So sorry man, I cant get it.

gibbo rte were going go out on sat here in uk during the boom yrs but backtracked on that once the tiger dwindled away. newstalk radio "off the ball" is very good. 8pm on monday nights(now) is good and wed nights gerry thornley is on. woody and shaggy on it now.

bbc is pretty limited for irish coverage though

I don't think you have anything to worry about next weekend fly. The only other time we won in Paris was when we had BoD and they played their third choice in alot of positions due to injuries (always forgotten about that game).

I agree and disagree secretfly. Glass half empty would be to say that it was a repetition of the QF.

I don't think it was. In the QF we were blown away and never looked like winning. Yesterday we did play good stuff at times and could have won.

That is progress even if its not the progress we wanted.

I agree with what a lot of people are saying but it is 1 game into the competition. This time last year we scraped past Italy, this was a far better performance. Wales had an extra two weeks in camp so were better drilled too.

I am not happy with aspects of our performance but this is not the worst performance I've seen by a long stretch.

The performance was fine it was Kidney's tactics that were crap

TycroesOsprey wrote:From a welshman and no Im not gloating it was a great match.

1. Strength in depth at tighthead.
2. Play a genuine openside.
3. Identify a centre partnership that works then stick with it and allow it to develop. Forget about BOD now!
4. Use the blitz defence when the opposition backs are massive so they dont build up speed. that one is so basic that declan must know this?

Personally as I said before the game, Bowe at outside centre would have worried me more than any other pairing you could have come up with.

Given the way Wales played and the way England played, you'r probably better off taking advice from Tycroes than me. Except that i agree with all those points and particularly the last one. I was amazed at the fact that a blitz with a very fast line speed wasn't used to counter the Welsh backs. That said i think Wales were smart at bringing on runners from deep and at pace, so until you find some bruising centres, it may be academic.

Also i thought there was a 5 or 10 minute period where Ireland took it up with the forwards, rucked quickly and beyond the ball and used supporter forwards to pick and drive again. It looked like it made serious ground and i felt was the best option given the physical mismatch in the backs. I think if Ferris, Healy and O'Connell had been used to tenderise the Welsh pack a little more you may have had more joy. That said the Welsh defence was VERY good.

Hood83 wrote:

TycroesOsprey wrote:From a welshman and no Im not gloating it was a great match.

1. Strength in depth at tighthead.
2. Play a genuine openside.
3. Identify a centre partnership that works then stick with it and allow it to develop. Forget about BOD now!
4. Use the blitz defence when the opposition backs are massive so they dont build up speed. that one is so basic that declan must know this?

Personally as I said before the game, Bowe at outside centre would have worried me more than any other pairing you could have come up with.

Given the way Wales played and the way England played, you'r probably better off taking advice from Tycroes than me. Except that i agree with all those points and particularly the last one. I was amazed at the fact that a blitz with a very fast line speed wasn't used to counter the Welsh backs. That said i think Wales were smart at bringing on runners from deep and at pace, so until you find some bruising centres, it may be academic.

Like I said on another post, it's not so much what the 'massive' backs (seriously, these guys are growing bigger by the hour!!) but it's not so much what they're doing to us as what we are patently not doing to Wales.

They attacked us....a lot of it was because we kicked heedless ball right to them. We invited them in. A sin. We didn't offer anything solid in attack. It was just opportunism that worked on the two occasions we scored a try (and that tells you how good Ireland could be. They got their pulse rates up for two attempts and scored twice) But for the majority of the game we handed the attacking initiative to Wales and they gratefully accepted the invitation.

They were the better side, playing the better, more high tempo, inventive rugby and they scored three tries. We were the side that looked as confused and disorientated by mixed-messages-coaching as we've done now for maybe two years, playing a stodgy old school game (being kind to Kidney's methods)...and we scored two tries.

So saying Ireland need to defend against massive Welsh backs is one version of the truth. How we decide that defence is not going to be our gameplan and that attacking Wales (or any other side) with the solid viciousness every country knows we can bring when we're at our best.... that's our concern. So Welsh massive backs will not be our main concern in the future. Neutralising their verve by keeping the ball and inflicting some of our own will be.

nail on the head feckless. its a smokescreen to deflect from other areas ie gameplan. or lack of it yes we lack a power runner in midfield however we have not tried to remedy it. i mean bowe and trimble certainly have the size to trouble teams and we have plenty of decent wingers. roberts and rougerie are not the most subtle but make huge inroads in the 12 jersey. could trimble do the same for us? possibly. actually think Whitten in the medium/long term could have the right stuff. Kidney has not tried things in midfield. tinkered with the half backs to beat the band but darcy starts every game. madness. he has been poor for 2 years for ireland. he is gone at international level

gas things is if we had an attack coach we could have won that game even with two small centres. the welsh defense was good but we are so easy to defend against. They must be having a right old chuckle at our expense. 3 times we have gotten it wrong against them and in big games. they are a big strong streetwise young team but im not convinced they are all that.

So our gamplan was to kick the ball aimlessly down the middle of the pitch to their full back with an enourmous boot flanked by two absolute ogres on the wing. surely if we wanted to exploit a weakness we could have kicked for touch and pressured their lineout. It was awful. On occasions we released the shackles and played a bit and guess what we scored 2 decent trys. but after the 2nd one we went straight back into our shells and started leathering the ball down the pitch. they certainly ran it back at us and made 80yards ball in hand to get the winning penalty. Gatland 3 Kidney 0.

It still appears we are trying to play a slow paced territorial game (kind of a hybrid of South Africa / Munster. lots of forwardsr eceiving the ball and flopping on the ground, repeat x25 then all of a sudden the opposition run out of defenders. Try scored job done. Deccie and Gert we dont have a destructive scrum and real power up front to play like this.

oh and another rant we still look very reluctant to counter attack of poor kicks. the players do not look like they are having any fun and look flat and it would appear that they have had it drilled into them. territory territory terrtory. no risks here lads

we played like a team whose backs are coached by a defense coach and kicking coach sharing duties. only one game gone though. lots still to play for but we have to improve and start making progress.

a good performances in Paris would be a start

Hood83 wrote:Also i thought there was a 5 or 10 minute period where Ireland took it up with the forwards, rucked quickly and beyond the ball and used supporter forwards to pick and drive again. It looked like it made serious ground and i felt was the best option given the physical mismatch in the backs. I think if Ferris, Healy and O'Connell had been used to tenderise the Welsh pack a little more you may have had more joy. That said the Welsh defence was VERY good.

Thats when we had our best period in the game. Heaslip made serious yards through the middle, as did O'Brien. We did try things and had our successes but to many times the moves broke down in the Welsh half. Should we have used the maul more?

I do think Barnes got it wrong at the breakdown, he allowed Wales to pinch the ball when off their feet on a number of occaision, whereas when we had got into legitimate positions to steal the ball and the Welsh players weren't releasing we were told to release of penalised.

Trimble made more metres than North, we completely dominated the lineout and the two most effective players on the deck were Rory Best and Sean O'Brien.

Wales superior power and ability to break the gainline was the difference but it was a fairly even contest. They were superior but not by a huge amount like in NZ.

Individual errors let us down at key times. Defensive disorganisation down the blindside for Davies first try. Bowe spotted it but others were too slow to react. Did we miss BODs organisational skill here?

McFaddens missed tackle on North was poor but would Bowe normally fumble the ball into touch?

Murray took the wrong option on a number of occaisions like box kicking the ball into touch after we turned Wales over. Our long kicking game generally was poor but the garryowen worked well and we should have used it on Hook.

We can learn from this and bounce back.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:When Ireland played a fast off-loading game they scored two tries.
When Ireland tried to build phases they didn't go anywhere and ended up kicking away possession or guys like Healy and POC got isolated and got turned over.

Leinster generally play a fast off-loading type game with Jennings as their link man. Warburton, Pocock and McCaw are NOT traditional fetcher type opensides but rather fill-in players who go where they are needed to ensure continuity.

So here is the chicken and egg scenario. Does Kidney not play the fast off-loading type game because he doen't have a linking openside?
OR
Do Ireland not have a linking openside because they don't play a fast off-loading game?

If Kidney persists with his plan of trying to build phases against teams with superior power across the pitch Ireland will struggle to cross the gain line. OTOH if he actually uses the cleverness and handling skills of the players he has at his disposal in a fast off-loading game size mis-matches are nullified. His current gameplan isn't working nor is it likely to start working anytime soon but at least it should ensure the losses are close ones.

SOB has been fantastic as a linking openside for Leinster. So it is option 2.

Excellent analysis by Great Aukster.

However this is where Rory and me fundamentally disagree. We keep playing Option 2 - Option 2 isn't working we must give Option 1 a go with the best we have.

Even though Ireland have a linking openside in SOB

You can say we don't all you want Geoff, but that is exactly what he has been doing for Leinster this season. It is clear his role was to cover the centres in the Wales match, and he still managed to carry well and was very effective at slowing down the opposition ball. It is ludicrous all the criticism he is receiving despite being one of our most effective players. Blaming a 7 for lack of security at the breakdown after the first phase is very naive indeed.

Jennings hasn't been the link-man for Leinster this season. SOB has. The fact you still think it is Jennings proves to me you have seen very little of Leinster. Also, Kidney isn't building up phases at all that is the point! We kicked it away every few phases, I honestly don't know how you could say Kidney was building phases. Kidney wants us to kill the game through territorial kicking and forward momentum. This isn't working.

bedfordwelsh wrote:
I never believed the HC form would ever hold water but for me now its clearly down to the standard of our Regional coaching, especially at the Blues and Ospreys.

It can't now be coincidence that Gatland has twice got the best out of players such as R Jones, Evans, Roberts etc whilst the Blues and Ospreys struggle or stutter in the HC.

Well if that's the case then the opposite must also be true.It can't be coincidence that Kidney has twice got the worst out of players such as Ferris,SoB,Sexton etc.. whilst Leinster,Munster and Ulster are flying in the HC.

After my annoyance has settled, my cool calm collected self has returned and I'm wondering should we be annoyed with Ferris? Illegal or not, he would have known it might be questionable. Just beyond the 22, and with only a one point lead...

Has Ferris earnt the right not to be blamed? I can't help but think what the reaction would have been if the penalty was given by any number of other Irish players.

In the clear light of day, Ferris lost us the game.

(Doesn't mean to say we dont have improvements to make though)

I agree Clive to a certain extent. Personally I don't think it was a penalty, but in the light of the situation it was incredibly risky at best.

Not really blaming him because if he doesn't do it Wales were making so much ground so easily that they would have had a simple drop goal attempt instead.

It was a minor mistake at an important time and can't be compared to Bowe's fumble,the way 3 players allowed North to barge over,the box kick out on the full from Murray when there was half the pitch to aim for,playing a drift defence against the big Welsh backs or the constant aimless kicking up the middle from Sexton.

A hit needed to be made. Ferris not only doesn't take evans off the groundnbut he also maintains control and doesn't drop or drive downwards. He got caught out by barnes seeking to even the score. Would be very harsh to sy he lost us the game. With the standard of player we have we shouldn't be taking about this. Lack of any sort of attacking game plan cost us the match

Rory stick to the fact please.

At no time have I put Jennings forward as the alternative - dont suggest I have.

I have made it quite clear I am not criticising SOB but the system being employed - please dont suggest I am

At no time did I claim Kindney is building phases - dont suggest I am. I have been very very critical of the tactics employed

You keep claiming that SOB has been playing well at 7 for Leinster this season - he may have done but he has only started 5 games at 7 all season. So hardly a regular in that position for his Province.

What isn't working is our failure to translate the Provincial game to the International arena. To do that that one of the changes we need, imv, is someone playing a 7 style role not a big ball carrier.

As for being niave I was playing rugby 25 years before you were born I think I have learnt one of two things in that time. Please dont descend into abuse

Thank you

Standulstermen wrote:A hit needed to be made. Ferris not only doesn't take evans off the groundnbut he also maintains control and doesn't drop or drive downwards. He got caught out by barnes seeking to even the score. Would be very harsh to sy he lost us the game. With the standard of player we have we shouldn't be taking about this. Lack of any sort of attacking game plan cost us the match

Stand I just went back and watched it again he tried to grab both legs but couldnt get a hold. What got me though was the Welsh players patting him on the head and shouting at Ferris as well as the big smirk on Evans face

I was responding to TGA about his comments on phases/Jennings etc, so sorry for the confusion.

He has been playing at 7 for Leinster more than anyone else, and doing very well there. I would also be very surprised if it was only 5 games, in both the Pro 12 and HEC. SOB has been a very good linkman/breakdown player for Leinster, simple as that. That is why I asked if you had watched Leinster play. Many people including yourself, if I recall correctly, on Sunday looked to blame SOB for the lack of quick ball and security at the breakdown, which to me is naive considering that isn't solely his job, and lies with whoever is at the breakdown at the time. At the first phase he did secure ball, so he did his job in terms of securing. From that point on he defended well, slowed down ball, and carried.

I am not giving you abuse at all Geoff. I am saying that when people went straight to blaming SOB, who made the most tackles, was the most effective of all our players at the breakdown (excluding Best) and made some good carries, is pretty ridiculous. I think people just want the flashy, running SOB back.

Standulstermen wrote:A hit needed to be made. Ferris not only doesn't take evans off the groundnbut he also maintains control and doesn't drop or drive downwards. He got caught out by barnes seeking to even the score. Would be very harsh to sy he lost us the game. With the standard of player we have we shouldn't be taking about this. Lack of any sort of attacking game plan cost us the match

Game plan was poor, no questions about that, but this board is entirely about missed tackles, poor kicking, fumbles... why not talk about the guy who made a questionable challenge on a guy within kicking range under the refs nose.

Also someone mentioned a drop-kick was coming. There is obviously a big difference between the difficulty of a penalty kick and drop kick.

Come on, we have to be fair here. Stand, you know fine rightly is someone like Paddy Wallace did it, he would probably have a police guard outside his house this week.

(PS, I dont believe it was a penalty, but ferris is smart enough to know the risk.)

Ferris was just responsible for the final scoreline. He wasn't in any way the only one responsible for having the scoreboard tottering on that narrow edge in the first place. Blame him? Well, just add him to the mix. There's alot of blame going round. Plenty enough for everyone

So Paddy Wallace failing to pass against Wales last year was just part of the 'mix' that day too?

Ha, this instance as seriously shown some of the protective hero worship in contrast with biased grudges among the Irish fans.

clivemcl wrote:So Paddy Wallace failing to pass against Wales last year was just part of the 'mix' that day too?

Ha, this instance as seriously shown some of the protective hero worship in contrast with biased grudges among the Irish fans.

Biased grudges....? Do explain please. And by 'mix' you'll know what I'm refering to if you read even a tiny fraction of the reports and comments in the aftermath - both from journalists and us, the supporters. The 'Mix' was well and truly aired well before you brought up your theory of let's blame an individual player.

Rory_Gallagher wrote: He has been playing at 7 for Leinster more than anyone else, and doing very well there. I would also be very surprised if it was only 5 games, in both the Pro 12 and HEC. SOB has been a very good linkman/breakdown player for Leinster, simple as that. That is why I asked if you had watched Leinster play.

It is only 5 games I looked it up. He has not started the most Jennings has - 7. Ryan has started 4 and 3 others. So I have to ask if you regularly watch Leinster games why have you noticed this ?

Rory_Gallagher wrote: Many people including yourself, if I recall correctly, on Sunday looked to blame SOB for the lack of quick ball and security at the breakdown.... I am saying that when people went straight to blaming SOB, who made the most tackles, was the most effective of all our players at the breakdown (excluding Best) and made some good carries, is pretty ridiculous.

No I did not blame SOB I blamed the tactics and part of those faulty tactics were playing SOB at 7 in the first place. In no way am I doubting his contribution which was one of the better ones but what I do question is whether he can do the job required of a man with 7 on his back.

Sorry Clive but you are saying it was a legal tackle. Maybe ferris thought the same and most observers agree with him. He for pinged but it was a poor decision. You take them and move on. It seems very harsh to criticise a player for making a tackle when it was the ref who made the mistake.

I have already said ferris had anv disappointing game but he wasn't at fault for the last 3 points. Wayne barnes was.

SecretFly wrote:

clivemcl wrote:So Paddy Wallace failing to pass against Wales last year was just part of the 'mix' that day too?

Ha, this instance as seriously shown some of the protective hero worship in contrast with biased grudges among the Irish fans.

Biased grudges....? Do explain please. And by 'mix' you'll know what I'm refering to if you read even a tiny fraction of the reports and comments in the aftermath - both from journalists and us, the supporters. The 'Mix' was well and truly aired well before you brought up your theory of let's blame an individual player.

I'm not speaking directly about you, I dont remember how you reacted to Paddy Wallace last year. You'll have to be honest with yourself on that one. I'm saying last year Paddy wallace makes a mistake in dying minutes and gets hatred. Ferris makes a mistake this time round he gets NO criticism.
Thats what I mean by bias.

You claim that saturdays loss was a result of 80mins of not getting into a comfortable position. Do you have the same belief about the welsh game last year? I don't remember too many people keen to talk about the 'mix' of issues that week...

our best 3 back row players are sob,heaslip,ferris. our best back row is not sob, heaslip and ferris.

i would like to see henry or omahony get a run at some stage. if we do not get beaten badly on saturday i cannot see it happening thought

triple crown to play for an all that : ( short term outlook as always

WillyGilly wrote:I agree Clive to a certain extent. Personally I don't think it was a penalty, but in the light of the situation it was incredibly risky at best.

Paddy Wallace tried it v Wales in the last second of the SLAM year. His effort failed. At least 1F got it right.

It was dumb, but POC gave away 5 pts just before it. And winning that game would have done us more harm than good, imo. We all Stand Together under rugby. Let's just blame Kidney shall we?

geoff998rugby wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote: He has been playing at 7 for Leinster more than anyone else, and doing very well there. I would also be very surprised if it was only 5 games, in both the Pro 12 and HEC. SOB has been a very good linkman/breakdown player for Leinster, simple as that. That is why I asked if you had watched Leinster play.

It is only 5 games I looked it up. He has not started the most Jennings has - 7. Ryan has started 4 and 3 others. So I have to ask if you regularly watch Leinster games why have you noticed this ?

Rory_Gallagher wrote: Many people including yourself, if I recall correctly, on Sunday looked to blame SOB for the lack of quick ball and security at the breakdown.... I am saying that when people went straight to blaming SOB, who made the most tackles, was the most effective of all our players at the breakdown (excluding Best) and made some good carries, is pretty ridiculous.

No I did not blame SOB I blamed the tactics and part of those faulty tactics were playing SOB at 7 in the first place. In no way am I doubting his contribution which was one of the better ones but what I do question is whether he can do the job required of a man with 7 on his back.

Which is why I said I am very surprised if he has started only 5 games this year for Leinster at 7. But I don't count the number of times he plays 7 while watching, nor the amount of times Jennings started also. I couldn't tell you how many times Ferris has started this year for Ulster, or whoever. I don't count. I am saying that SOB does do the job required of a 7. Because he does it for Leinster each time he plays there and I've watched him make plenty of good turnovers. He links up with the likes of Heaslip brilliantly. His support play has been immense. He isn't a conventional 7 who is always looking to steal the ball, but if he is there he will slow it down or win the turnover. He is very quick to the breakdown also. Apart from that, I feel Ireland do not need the "natural" 7 anyway, as I have already pointed out France do just fine without and IMO have the best back row in the world.

Also just checked - you are indeed right, he has played 5/9 matches at 7, but over the course of 3 of the other matches, Jennings was replaced by McLaughlin and SOB moved to 7.

SecretFly wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

TycroesOsprey wrote:From a welshman and no Im not gloating it was a great match.

1. Strength in depth at tighthead.
2. Play a genuine openside.
3. Identify a centre partnership that works then stick with it and allow it to develop. Forget about BOD now!
4. Use the blitz defence when the opposition backs are massive so they dont build up speed. that one is so basic that declan must know this?

Personally as I said before the game, Bowe at outside centre would have worried me more than any other pairing you could have come up with.

Given the way Wales played and the way England played, you'r probably better off taking advice from Tycroes than me. Except that i agree with all those points and particularly the last one. I was amazed at the fact that a blitz with a very fast line speed wasn't used to counter the Welsh backs. That said i think Wales were smart at bringing on runners from deep and at pace, so until you find some bruising centres, it may be academic.

Like I said on another post, it's not so much what the 'massive' backs (seriously, these guys are growing bigger by the hour!!) but it's not so much what they're doing to us as what we are patently not doing to Wales.

They attacked us....a lot of it was because we kicked heedless ball right to them. We invited them in. A sin. We didn't offer anything solid in attack. It was just opportunism that worked on the two occasions we scored a try (and that tells you how good Ireland could be. They got their pulse rates up for two attempts and scored twice) But for the majority of the game we handed the attacking initiative to Wales and they gratefully accepted the invitation.

They were the better side, playing the better, more high tempo, inventive rugby and they scored three tries. We were the side that looked as confused and disorientated by mixed-messages-coaching as we've done now for maybe two years, playing a stodgy old school game (being kind to Kidney's methods)...and we scored two tries.

So saying Ireland need to defend against massive Welsh backs is one version of the truth. How we decide that defence is not going to be our gameplan and that attacking Wales (or any other side) with the solid viciousness every country knows we can bring when we're at our best.... that's our concern. So Welsh massive backs will not be our main concern in the future. Neutralising their verve by keeping the ball and inflicting some of our own will be.

All fair points regarding keeping the ball more and not kicking away bad ball, or executing poor kick chasing. But there is also the issue of the inevitable period where you don;t have the ball, and that is when i think the defence needs to be better taoilred to the Welsh threat.

I think both are important aspects as to why you didn't win.

Hood83 wrote:
All fair points regarding keeping the ball more and not kicking away bad ball, or executing poor kick chasing. But there is also the issue of the inevitable period where you don;t have the ball, and that is when i think the defence needs to be better taoilred to the Welsh threat.

I think both are important aspects as to why you didn't win.

Playing the drift defence against Wales was brain dead,no idea who came up with that idea but it's yet another indictment of Kidney that he allowed it.

The game was only close because Wales made an equally poor choice in defence.If the Welsh had drifted when defending against our our backs we would never have scored the 2nd try out wide and we hadn't the big ball carriers to punch holes up the middle.By playing the rush defence against us it allowed us to get around the Welsh defence by standing deep and simply going through the hands.

clivemcl wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

clivemcl wrote:So Paddy Wallace failing to pass against Wales last year was just part of the 'mix' that day too?

Ha, this instance as seriously shown some of the protective hero worship in contrast with biased grudges among the Irish fans.

Biased grudges....? Do explain please. And by 'mix' you'll know what I'm refering to if you read even a tiny fraction of the reports and comments in the aftermath - both from journalists and us, the supporters. The 'Mix' was well and truly aired well before you brought up your theory of let's blame an individual player.

I'm not speaking directly about you, I dont remember how you reacted to Paddy Wallace last year. You'll have to be honest with yourself on that one. I'm saying last year Paddy wallace makes a mistake in dying minutes and gets hatred. Ferris makes a mistake this time round he gets NO criticism.
Thats what I mean by bias.

You claim that saturdays loss was a result of 80mins of not getting into a comfortable position. Do you have the same belief about the welsh game last year? I don't remember too many people keen to talk about the 'mix' of issues that week...

Wales last year. We were the better side, cheated out of a win by shoddy sportsmanship and brilliant gamesmanship. This year we can blame individuals for moments of madness and stupidity and bad decisions. Here's a list: Bowe, Sexton, O'Connell and yep, Ferris. But I'm a long way off blaming them for that thing we saw that passed itself off as rugby. It was something but it wasn't high level International rugby. But if people want to apportion blame so be it - it's our right; I'll reserve mine for the coaches.

Having said all that - I still can't work out the bias? Bias for one player over another? Bias for or against Northern players (Wallace and Ferris are compatriots, are they not?) Bias means there is natural preferment based on invalid principles. So what's your take on it? What do posters have against Wallace that they don't have against Ferris?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Hood83 wrote:
All fair points regarding keeping the ball more and not kicking away bad ball, or executing poor kick chasing. But there is also the issue of the inevitable period where you don;t have the ball, and that is when i think the defence needs to be better taoilred to the Welsh threat.

I think both are important aspects as to why you didn't win.

Playing the drift defence against Wales was brain dead,no idea who came up with that idea but it's yet another indictment of Kidney that he allowed it.

The game was only close because Wales made an equally poor choice in defence.If the Welsh had drifted when defending against our our backs we would never have scored the 2nd try out wide and we hadn't the big ball carriers to punch holes up the middle.By playing the rush defence against us it allowed us to get around the Welsh defence by standing deep and simply going through the hands.

100% agree

I don't see what mistake Ferris made - should he have let the player run through him instead? He made a good tackle.

Hood83 wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Hood83 wrote:
All fair points regarding keeping the ball more and not kicking away bad ball, or executing poor kick chasing. But there is also the issue of the inevitable period where you don;t have the ball, and that is when i think the defence needs to be better taoilred to the Welsh threat.

I think both are important aspects as to why you didn't win.

Playing the drift defence against Wales was brain dead,no idea who came up with that idea but it's yet another indictment of Kidney that he allowed it.

The game was only close because Wales made an equally poor choice in defence.If the Welsh had drifted when defending against our our backs we would never have scored the 2nd try out wide and we hadn't the big ball carriers to punch holes up the middle.By playing the rush defence against us it allowed us to get around the Welsh defence by standing deep and simply going through the hands.

100% agree

NZ regularly play a drift defense, probably the only top international team who still do. It seems to work for them. Particularly v Wales. The new French coaching set up seem to have followed suit and used a drift D against Italy. Presumably you are concluding that Wales will score a hat full against France now then?

miteyironpaw wrote:

NZ regularly play a drift defense, probably the only top international team who still do. It seems to work for them. Particularly v Wales. The new French coaching set up seem to have followed suit and used a drift D against Italy. Presumably you are concluding that Wales will score a hat full against France now then?

Both NZ and France have big physical midfielders who can take down other big physical players one v one (Smith isn't huge but he's no midget and an excellent defender),the reason playing the drift defence against Wales was bad is because our backs are smaller and lighter so needed to be hitting the Welsh hard and further up the pitch.

Different systems work for different players,ours was a shocking choice given the players at our disposal.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Also just checked - you are indeed right, he has played 5/9 matches at 7, but over the course of 3 of the other matches, Jennings was replaced by McLaughlin and SOB moved to 7.

Sorry its only 2 games not 3. Also you are forgetting than Jennings has replaced SOB in 4 of 5 starts by SOB, at 7, between the 48mins and 56 min marks.

SOB has only played more than 56mins once, in a game at 7, all season.

His total game time at 7 for Leinster this year is 330 mins.
Jennings by contrast is sitting at 619 mins
Dominic Ryan is sitting on 316 mins

So in no way shape or form has SOB been a regular at 7, he has played nearly as much time elsewhere in the backrow (286 mins) and has only played 1 game for more than 56 mins.

So he doesn''t even get regular game time there for his province !

Jennings is the best 7 at Leinster. However I've come to accept that he can't quite cut it at international level. O'Brien is a brilliant 6. At 7 he's no match for the likes Warburton. He's wasted there really. He's only there because we had few other options going into the RWC. We should try POM or Henry there.

Yet the time he has played there, he has made plenty of turnovers, in such a short period of time and been a fantastic support player. I was unaware he had played such little rugby, and I am surprised actually, though that doesn't take away from the fact that each time he has started at 7/moved to 7, he has been doing very well. Jennings hasn't been as effective as SOB there this season, regardless of how much more gametime Jennings has had.

I am quite clearly wrong about SOB playing 7 the most for Leinster this year (though I should have clearly realised Jennings can only play 7, while SOB can play 6, 7 and 8), but I am not wrong about how he has done there, and whether or not he can perform in the 7 shirt. He has come leaps and bounds this season at 7, and I hope he gets more game-time there for both Leinster and Ireland.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Jennings is the best 7 at Leinster. However I've come to accept that he can't quite cut it at international level. O'Brien is a brilliant 6. At 7 he's no match for the likes Warburton. He's wasted there really. He's only there because we had few other options going into the RWC. We should try POM or Henry there.

I disagree, though I feel SOB is a brilliant 6, 7 or 8. He is a very well balanced player. I don't see why people call for POM/Henry to replace him when they themselves are not natural 7s, and POM specifically I would argue earns himself quite a few penalties there and isn't a smart breakdown player, but a very aggressive one. Henry would be a better comparison, though I feel SOB is the better player, at the breakdown or otherwise. Henry though would be the next best choice for 7. None of these players are "natural" 7s, though none of them have to be either. If people are expecting a McCaw to appear out of one of these guys, they are mistaken.

As for playing against Warburton, SOB slowed down the welsh ball plenty, and gained some turnovers. Warburton did the same against Ireland, but SOB on top of that was the top tackler and made some good carries also. I don't see how Warburton outplayed SOB. The difference is the welsh pack actually committed themselves to the breakdown to ensure quick ball, which is the opposite of what Ireland did.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I was responding to TGA about his comments on phases/Jennings etc, so sorry for the confusion.

Apologies to Rory and Geoff as I seem to have started something

Rory - My comments aren't in any way directed against SOB, rather they are directed against Kidney. Ireland have the players who can play a fast offloading game but it seems when they put on a green shirt they are told to take no risks. Hence we hardly see Trimble and Bowe coming off their wings, and players going to ground rather than slip the ball to support. Off-loading is risky especially for knock-ons but my complaint is that we'd rather certainly concede possession by kicking downfield rather than possibly concede possession in the offload.

My point about building phases was that Ireland did make some ground round the fringes but it has to be mixed up or it just tires the pack out and stops being effective, especially when their defence is shared amongst big physical players as well as forwards.

Finally I mentioned Jennings as being Leinster's link man because that is the role he plays irrespective of whether SOB is in the side or not. I'm not saying SOB can't do the job or that the defeat was anything to do with him playing openside. In fact I don't think having Warburton, Pocock or McCaw would have made much difference because Ireland aren't playing the sort of game where they can use those skills. These guys' main asset is about being in the right place at the right time to keep moves going. Ireland aren't playing a continuity game to keep the ball alive so where's the benefit in having that type of linkman?

Totally agree with your last line, and fair enough TGA, you make some fair points!

One of those wherewe will have to agree to diagree Rory.

You think SOB is a good 7, I don't .
I think we have done this to death

geoff998rugby wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Also just checked - you are indeed right, he has played 5/9 matches at 7, but over the course of 3 of the other matches, Jennings was replaced by McLaughlin and SOB moved to 7.

Sorry its only 2 games not 3. Also you are forgetting than Jennings has replaced SOB in 4 of 5 starts by SOB, at 7, between the 48mins and 56 min marks.

SOB has only played more than 56mins once, in a game at 7, all season.

His total game time at 7 for Leinster this year is 330 mins.
Jennings by contrast is sitting at 619 mins
Dominic Ryan is sitting on 316 mins

So in no way shape or form has SOB been a regular at 7, he has played nearly as much time elsewhere in the backrow (286 mins) and has only played 1 game for more than 56 mins.

So he doesn''t even get regular game time there for his province !

When push comes to shove, and we(Leinster) are up against against top class backrow units, Jennings plays or comes on to save the day (HC Final 2011). I wonder why? 3 HC Finals. He was strongly influential in winning two of them. The argument is over Rory. Let it go man. Jenno is a far superior 7 than SOB. Cheika knew it and now Schmidt does, after flutering about. Ask ASM or Toulouse who they would prefer to play against in HC knockout match. It wouldnt be Jenno. I've talked to their fans on numerous ocassions. They rate Jennings very highly. Le nuisance. They know their rugby down there.

Gibbo out.