Ireland post mortem

First topic message reminder :

Just back from the game.

Firstly - barnes messed up big time for the last penalty. Has to be lifting involved in a tip tackle which there wasn't.

Secondly- Wales probably had a few calls go against them so overall I feel things evened themselves out.

Thirdly- I though Wales were much the better team and were value for a 5-10 point win in my book.

None of which were what I wanted to talk through. I am posting in a reactionary mood so forgive me if I seem too emotional but to me I think the time has come for a change. We have been described as a team in a 'steady transition', not being too wayward with caps and building the next side gradually. Is there a point to building the next side gradually if the present side isn't doing the business though?

I thought today that the difference in Wales approach was stark in the 2nd half. Roberts had got no joy throughout so they switched the attack to north with devastating effect. I have seen no semblance of game plan, no hint of playing what's in front of you or anything to suggest Ireland have remotely half the nous that Wales have.

The players seem inhibited and for me only rob Kearney comes out of the game with any sense of credit (maybe Rory best too). To my mind we are relying on brute force and ignorance and when that doesn't work we have no plan B. I can't recall seeing tommy Bowe having a poorer game. I think it is telling that the two progressive subs weren't used ( as far as I could see). I think the question needs asked that what can Ton McGahan, Joe Schmidt and Brian McLaughlin get out of these guys at provincial level that we aren't seeing at international level.

for me a telling situation was ferris taking a poor up and under in the 2nd half. For ulster he would build up a head of steam and plough into/through the first defender. Today he passed. There is something seriously wrong in the international set up IMO.

For my welsh counterparts again this is more an Irish bitching session and I don't wish to detract from what was a deserved victory. Best of luck and here's to a GS cider against France. To my Irish friends I apologise if I am being overly harsh or emotional but that result has ruined my week and I am gutted and depressed.

Well Wallace isnt in the squad this weekend, him henry and touhy been released back to Ulster.

Earls set to start by all accounts. Mcfadden at 12 hopefully!

very much doubt it. earls for mc fadden. thats your team. mc fadden will drop to bench kearney out of squad

how close is luke fitz i wonder?

clivemcl wrote:Well Wallace isnt in the squad this weekend, him henry and touhy been released back to Ulster.

Earls set to start by all accounts. Mcfadden at 12 hopefully!

Love to see that happen Clive. At least it would show he is open to change and a new centre-pairing (the one I've been asking for) - may emerge in this 6-N. McFadden is no way a 13. Born to be a 12.

I think its going to be Darcy & Earls, Im afraid. But McFadden on the bench, may see him replace Darcy in 2nd-half. That would be 2nd best, but an effort by DK. They will have teething-problems. Of course they will. But so did BOD and Darcy in the early days and they turned out OK. In their prime - they were agruably the best.

See me trying to be positive?

It'll still need more than a dynamic 12 and 13. It'll need a team as a whole focusing on attack rather than defence... so that dynamicim is aided and supported when it happens.

McFadden and Earls looks potentially exciting in attack but vulnerable in defence. D'arcy at 12 offers less in attack but perhaps is more solid in defence and better in the rucks.

Its much a muchness but Earls will offer a bit more of a threat at least. I'd prefer Mcfadden and Earls but don't think we'll see it.

roddersm wrote:McFadden and Earls looks potentially exciting in attack but vulnerable in defence. D'arcy at 12 offers less in attack but perhaps is more solid in defence and better in the rucks.

Its much a muchness but Earls will offer a bit more of a threat at least. I'd prefer Mcfadden and Earls but don't think we'll see it.

I think evidence of the past two seasons in the Six Nations would beg to differ on D'Arcy's defensive abilities.

D'arcy is generally a good defender Hookism, certainly the most solid of the three.

Whichever combination we pick will be vulnerable and we will miss BOD's organisational skills as seen for Davies 1st try last week.

We have to go with what we have though. The best way to beat the French is to attack, retain the ball and not rely on defence too much anyway.

I am not sure we are watchng the same D'Arcy then rodders because i think that he has not only been weak in attack but defensively weak as well for Ireland (with exception of a few matches) consistently for the last 2 years.

People keep saying that D'Arcy needs to be in the centres now becaus Ireland miss BOD and the centres need experience. I cant buy into this. Kidney needs to take the bull by the horns and do something about it. McFadden and Eales look a decent centre pairing but i would like to see Trimble and Earls as the centre pairing to be honest.

even when we had a great start against a dreadful scottish team in murrayfiled last year we reverted to defence defence defence. nearly lost the bloody game

when we do cross the line and get a lead its like batten down the hatches and your lasting impression of ireland is of attempted choke tackles and green jerseys with one hand in the air

just cannot get away with it against teams who have a certain je ne sais quoi in attack. il give kidney and les kiss credit for wrapping up australia in the world cup in a defensive masterclass but it seems quite a while ago now. hard to repllicate

roddersm wrote:D'arcy is generally a good defender Hookism, certainly the most solid of the three.

Whichever combination we pick will be vulnerable and we will miss BOD's organisational skills as seen for Davies 1st try last week.

We have to go with what we have though. The best way to beat the French is to attack, retain the ball and not rely on defence too much anyway.

+1.

It's not going to be easy to do either against the French and even an attacking game could fail to get the result - but standing off them, kicking to them and giving them time to develop momentum will kill us. So for confidence alone, we need to meet them, face up to them, meet them in aggression and in the constant desire to unsettle them by pushing for their line when they expect us to devote most of our time to defending ours. For confidence alone, we need a positive attacking, high tempo game

Billy I'm not disagreeing but I can see the logic of going with D'arcy. I'm not convinced that there's much between him and McFadden. D'arcy is better in defence and McFadden offers a bit more in attack.

None of the options are going to set the world alight or worry France too much but we must be more organised in defence and smarter in attack than last week no matter who we pick.

Reddan would make the biggest impact to the side, in terms of speeding up the attack and putting us on the front foot, but I think Kidney will stick with Murray.

Thats why i would have McFadden or Kearney jr on the wing with Bowe and Trimble and Earles as the centres rodders. To me, D'Arcy can come on late in the game but i would not start him. Either D'Arcy on or bring ROG on and move Sexton to 12.....

Let me say this, I have always been a huge fan of D'Arcy so this isn't part of the anti-D'arcy bandwagon. But without BOD he is exposed as being a decent but no better defender. BOD makes anyone look good. Is it any surprise that the best Jamie Roberts has ever played was with BOD? I think our whole defensive system was a shambles on Sunday. I wonder if Kis coaching the backs in their attacking play meant oversight of the defence fell between the cracks? I could almost guarantee that this wouldn't happen again this week. I would just like to see McFadden being given a chance in his best position. Personally I don't think he is good enough at international level, but we need to at least give him a chance. I would be absolutely delighted to be proved wrong. Why not play O'Malley with him at 13? I don't believe in playing people out of position. That mean no Earls, Bowe or Trimble at 13 thanks. Thinking about Horgan and Trimble v England at Twickenham still gives me shivers. Eurgh!

We desperately need a new backs/attack coach in the set up. I am astounded Kidney did not appoint someone straight after the World Cup.

I'd go with Zebo before Kearney jr but I'd stick with Bowe and Trimble in the starting XV.

I thought Trimble had a good game all round on Sunday and Bowe was our most dangerous back even if his defence was a shambles. Usually he is very solid in that area and worth another chance.

Zebo is a livewire - and potentially a very tasty one to have in our armoury for the future (not too far down the line). Dave Kearney has more grit, with a nice balance of livewire thrown in. I see huge potential in him.. in areas we mightn't even now mention him for! And I think he's ready to begin his education.

Agreed fly, i see Zebo as being something special but i think that Dave Kearney brings a better balance right now.

Kearneys classy no doubt but for me he doesn' offer anything new or different beyond the players we have.

Zebo is a bit raw but at least brings a different skill set to the table.

I wouldn't start either in this game though. I think the players we need to win are there already. Earls to 13, McFadden to 12 and Reddan to 9 and bob's your unkle.

eirebilly wrote:Agreed fly, i see Zebo as being something special but i think that Dave Kearney brings a better balance right now.

But why not try him now ? Why wait to test your young players ? Paying dividends for us.

was thinking the same about kiss being split over two roles.

its absolute nonsense given how poor our back play is that we did not appoint a new backs coach after the end of a 4 year cycle especially post world cup. especially since we knew gaffney was leaving all along

munkian wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Agreed fly, i see Zebo as being something special but i think that Dave Kearney brings a better balance right now.

But why not try him now ? Why wait to test your young players ? Paying dividends for us.

You write a letter to Kidney please...because if he reads, I think he already knows what's in the mind of many Irish fans. But he picks his sides.

I know you could never judge the merit of a coach on one game...but as a beginning thought then, Gaffney's coaching proved it wasn't the fault last week as a version of the same lacklustre ambition pervaded this side without his help. I said we'd find out if a backs coach was responsible for the constant lack of attacking ambitions a few games into this 6N. France will give us more of an overview. Was even Gaffney getting his way? All very well being an attack coach if the gameplan doesn't give you enough minutes per game to effect it.

Assuming Kidney has a plan, and that is a big assumption, then he should hold his nerve and stick with it until at least after the French game.

He put his faith mainly in the tried and tested and we fell short but it wasn't by much.

I want to see progress and change but one game into the 6N is not the time for a U-turn or knee jerk reactions.

Like I say Earls will hopefully be marginally better than McFadden at 13 and Reddan would provide quicker service at 9 and link better with Sexton.

There's no need to throw the baby out with the bath water here and most of the individual performance were pretty good on Sunday.

Does anyone think that Kidney's limitations are more exposed now that BOD is out? I believe they are. BOD did more than play and Captain us. He organised us on the field. No way Roberts and Davies would have had so much fun on Sun, if he was there. No way. We also missed him at the breakdown. He made up for the lack of a decent 7.

Exposed.Com

Kidneys limitations were exposed in November 2009 when our old guard sneaked a late draw against a young and inexperienced Australian side.

Since then its been a slow downward trend with the occaisional upward spike.

That said I was fairly happy with the 6N squad and 22 last week so I'm not sure how much I'd pin the defeat on Kidney.

I will judge him in a couple of weeks but I want to see a huge performance against France.

right roll on france now. il hold off my moaning until the next poor performance hopefully its not on saturday and we give a good account of ourselves. the team will more than likely see one change thats just the way its going to be. and on paper it will be a team with a few weaknesses but many good players and HC winners

sunday was disappointing but if you dont play well v wales you lose. lets see if we can deliver a performance v france and where it gets us

roddersm wrote:Kidneys limitations were exposed in November 2009 when our old guard sneaked a late draw against a young and inexperienced Australian side.

Since then its been a slow downward trend with the occaisional upward spike.
That said I was fairly happy with the 6N squad and 22 last week so I'm not sure how much I'd pin the defeat on Kidney.

I will judge him in a couple of weeks but I want to see a huge performance against France.

I really want to argue with you about that........ I cant

Have a good one rodders

Guys seriously if we don't front up next week I will be calling for Kidneys head and serious change as much as anyone but it was one game and one loss.

I'm gutted the GS is gone but 4 big performances and a strong summer tour and things could look very different.

Next Sunday will be the acid test to see if we are really going up or down though.

BELIEVE.

roddersm wrote:Guys seriously if we don't front up next week I will be calling for Kidneys head and serious change as much as anyone but it was one game and one loss.

I'm gutted the GS is gone but 4 big performances and a strong summer tour and things could look very different.

Next Sunday will be the acid test to see if we are really going up or down though.

BELIEVE.

I agree to a large extent here with this. I still think Kidney is the ma for the job, but may need to freshen up the coaching staff and certainly bring in a new backs/attack coach.

I think the past season since the Grand Slam demonstrate the margins of defeat. When we won the Grand Slam we were very fortunate to beat Wales in Cardiff to the tune of about a metre. Last season we should have beaten Wales with some questionable refereeing. She should have beaten France had it not been for Cronin's dreadful handling. Had it not been for a borderline, but probably correct call from a referee, we would have beaten Wales. We would be sitting here saying 'North's not that great. Sure he's big and strong but Trimble actually made more ground that him.' We might comment that Warburton and Falatau did practically nothing and how Wales are one dimensional using Roberts up the middle. Instead we are doom and gloom. Those are the margins of sport.

Agree about the small margins. Thats the key thing if the ferris penalty wasn't given and Davies had off seen red, we'd likely have won.

Would we have deserved it? Not really because Wales were better but we've won many games were we didn't play well. Thats sport.

I'm not sure Kidney is the man for the job but not really on this defeat. He's the man in charge for this 6N though so theres no point getting frustrated.

In fairness our scrum and lineout have improved markedly since last 6N so its not all bad.

Kidney hasn't been the man for the job since the tackle laws changed. The defensive style and the constantly kicking away possession is pathetic and is getting the worst possible performances from one of the best squads of players around. Has anyone actually told him that it's not 2009 anymore?

Feckless Rogue wrote:Kidney hasn't been the man for the job since the tackle laws changed. The defensive style and the constantly kicking away possession is pathetic and is getting the worst possible performances from one of the best squads of players around. Has anyone actually told him that it's not 2009 anymore?

+1. Love the guy to bits but he simply has'nt moved with the times.

Feckless, you couldn't be more right!

eirebilly wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:Kidney hasn't been the man for the job since the tackle laws changed. The defensive style and the constantly kicking away possession is pathetic and is getting the worst possible performances from one of the best squads of players around. Has anyone actually told him that it's not 2009 anymore?

+1. Love the guy to bits but he simply has'nt moved with the times.

Well that's simply ridiculous. Weren't we all praising the 'choke-tackle' and holding opposition players up on the feet to effect turn overs?
The kicking of possession is another matter, but why do we not look at how poorly Sexton rather than blaming the coaches. The coaches may have a game plan , but the players are responsible for carrying it out. Whisper it quietly, maybe we aren't as good as we think

Nearly every coach understands that the key unit to determine your attack and gameplan is the 8-12 combination and that working cohesively.

In my opinion that has been a problem for a while now. If a coach is chopping and changing half backs it suggest that they don't know what way they want to play the game or how to play it.

For years Ireland played Stringer and ROG who had a telepathic understanding.

Reddan and Sexton have a similar one at Leinster but we rarely see it for Ireland. That has been a monumental failing on Kidneys part.

Square pegs in square holes and we'll see a more fluid attack.

roddersm wrote:Guys seriously if we don't front up next week I will be calling for Kidneys head and serious change as much as anyone but it was one game and one loss.

I'm gutted the GS is gone but 4 big performances and a strong summer tour and things could look very different.

Next Sunday will be the acid test to see if we are really going up or down though.

BELIEVE.

Can't agree,it's been 4 years and multiple losses,the wins and good performances are unfortunately the one offs.

We lost twice to Wales with O'Gara at 10 and once with Sexton at 10. Neither outhalf has played well in those games. The aimless kicking away of possession has happened in all three games. The annoying thing is, when we keep the ball in hand we score. When we keep kicking it to them they score.

So why are we kicking it to them so much and keeping the ball in hand so little? Presumably because that's the plan. But why is it the plan? I don't think either Sexton or O'Gara are coming up with it. It's reasonable to assume Kidney is. Or one of his coaching team is and Kidney is giving it the green light. That's why I'm criticizing him.

Wales have beaten us three times in a year. They haven't beaten any other decent team in a competitive fixture in that time. The provinces results have gotten better in the last 3 years. The Irish teams results has gotten worse.

Now people are actually saying that Kidneys tactics are good, but the players just aren't good enough to win? That doesn't make sense when you look at the provinces playing so well, with the same players, but far more ambitious, offensive tactics.

roddersm wrote:Agree about the small margins. Thats the key thing if the ferris penalty wasn't given and Davies had off seen red, we'd likely have won.

Would we have deserved it? Not really because Wales were better but we've won many games were we didn't play well. Thats sport.

I'm not sure Kidney is the man for the job but not really on this defeat. He's the man in charge for this 6N though so theres no point getting frustrated.

In fairness our scrum and lineout have improved markedly since last 6N so its not all bad.

The fact that it was close is an indication of how good we could be.Wales battered us for the entire game and had their supposedly world class backs making big yards at will yet only scraped by with a controversial 2 point win.If we were playing as well as we could and still losing then you couldn't criticise Kidney but no matter what personnel he goes with the good performances are rarer than hens teeth.

Feckless Rogue wrote:We lost twice to Wales with O'Gara at 10 and once with Sexton at 10. Neither outhalf has played well in those games. The aimless kicking away of possession has happened in all three games. The annoying thing is, when we keep the ball in hand we score. When we keep kicking it to them they score.

So why are we kicking it to them so much and keeping the ball in hand so little? Presumably because that's the plan. But why is it the plan? I don't think either Sexton or O'Gara are coming up with it. It's reasonable to assume Kidney is. Or one of his coaching team is and Kidney is giving it the green light. That's why I'm criticizing him.

Wales have beaten us three times in a year. They haven't beaten any other decent team in a competitive fixture in that time. The provinces results have gotten better in the last 3 years. The Irish teams results has gotten worse.

Now people are actually saying that Kidneys tactics are good, but the players just aren't good enough to win? That doesn't make sense when you look at the provinces playing so well, with the same players, but far more ambitious, offensive tactics.

Couldn't say it any better,agree with this 100%.

I remember Rocky Elsom was asked what is the best way to defend after the tackle laws changed. He said "Keep attacking".

The Queensland Reds know that; they won the Super 15
Leinster know that; they won the Heineken Cup
Wales know that; RWC semi final and momentum to go for the 6 Nations title
New Zealand know that; RWC Champions
Australia know that; Tri-Nations Champions and 3rd place in the RWC

The penny didn't drop with PDV; South Africa came last in the Tri-nations and suffered a RWC quarter final exit
The penny didn't drop with Kidney; RWC quarter final exit and getting worse each year in the 6 Nations.

Again..it's emphasis. Some here think we're as good as Wales - we're in their league. And so you have to expect some wins and some losses. No shame, just playing an equally talented side and sometimes not getting there on the scoreboard. Let's not be arrogant, we were beaten by better side on the day. We were - no excuses. By far better in my eyes.

My emphasis - and why I personally get frustrated looking at that game on Sunday - is that Wales beat us by two points and for them, playing their most attacking, most Worldcuptastic (if I can borrow from Nicey..or was it Smashey?) brand of rugby. They were turning it on in most departments, always trying to spread us, always sustaining the tempo to catch big Paul and his crew out, and puff them out! - always challenging us to kick it back at them and preparing to let us know how antique a threat that presented to them. They were at their best; we were a long way off our best (I hope even those who say it was a good game realise that wasn't close to Ireland's best). And yet we still lost by.... 2 points.

So I get frustrated because if we managed to introduce consistency into this game that Ireland play when at their best, if we use our raw resources to their full potential, I don't think - I know Wales couldn't live with us. That's how much I believe in us as a rugby nation, and in the players we have and the ones coming through. Being depressed about Sunday is not me throwing in the white towel, it's me smarting at the wastage of talent, instinct, drive, power and aggression..and the stamina to sustain a high tempo game!... that Irish players have. The 'plan' is stalling us. I'm impatient. No time for any more experimentation. Devise a plan that uses the raw resources to their full potential. No more excuses.
We need to stop placing ourselves in 'home nations' strait jackets and call a spade a spade. Wales won playing a game they sing about with pride, we lost by 2 points playing something none of us recognise as modern rugby. I have great belief in this Irish side... but it needs direction.

Feckless Rogue wrote:We lost twice to Wales with O'Gara at 10 and once with Sexton at 10. Neither outhalf has played well in those games. The aimless kicking away of possession has happened in all three games. The annoying thing is, when we keep the ball in hand we score. When we keep kicking it to them they score.

So why are we kicking it to them so much and keeping the ball in hand so little? Presumably because that's the plan. But why is it the plan? I don't think either Sexton or O'Gara are coming up with it. It's reasonable to assume Kidney is. Or one of his coaching team is and Kidney is giving it the green light. That's why I'm criticizing him.Wales have beaten us three times in a year. They haven't beaten any other decent team in a competitive fixture in that time. The provinces results have gotten better in the last 3 years. The Irish teams results has gotten worse.

Now people are actually saying that Kidneys tactics are good, but the players just aren't good enough to win? That doesn't make sense when you look at the provinces playing so well, with the same players, but far more ambitious, offensive tactics.

Because Wales kicked the ball long and smart knowing we did not have the backthree to make ground. We then got bogged down in our half and ended up kicking. Its nothing to do with the tactics its just we are not capable of going through the phases as Wales did to get the penalty at the end. Wales started the game with the exact same tactics they employed in the second half in the game in NZ. We do not have a Nacewa to get us out of jail or the ability to make ground against as well organised defence as Wales. We made some headway in the second half but only through individual bits of play, the odd penalty and odd Welsh mistake.

Is it the tactics? Possibly there is something in that but maybe we were just outgunned. Certainly our defence was passive when it hadnt been previously. We cant hold onto the ball like wales do or Munster for that matter. We only got through four phases before we kicked or had to kick. We only held onto the ball for 10 phases once, I think Wales did it four times. Maybe it is tactics or lack of patience by the players.

Sorry asoreleftshoulder! Think I repeated your point. Didn't see it there. But it's bloody my point too anyway!

Just saw EOM mentioned there. Complaining about our defence and then suggesting EOM at 13 is pretty silly, especially if you saw him against Bath.

Feckless Rogue wrote:We lost twice to Wales with O'Gara at 10 and once with Sexton at 10. Neither outhalf has played well in those games. The aimless kicking away of possession has happened in all three games. The annoying thing is, when we keep the ball in hand we score. When we keep kicking it to them they score.

So why are we kicking it to them so much and keeping the ball in hand so little? Presumably because that's the plan.

Two obvious reasons are that we are getting too much slow ball from the ruck, which you can't possibly attack with...ask Scotland if you don't believe me.

The second reason is that we don't have a midfield target to get us over the gainline. Our backrow are marked men and can't carry of first phase and bringing wingers into the line is too obvious and easy to defend.

If you are in your own half and can't get over the gainline then you have no option but to kick the ball away to relieve pressure.

The big problem is that the quality of the kicking is so poor at times and also that too often we kick the ball away in attacking positions too.

Spot on DOD .

Agreed rodders - and before someone says we need a 7 for the quick recycled ball, no, we need big aggressive forwards who will knock anyone trying to slow the ball down off their feet. We have plenty of big forwards who can do that if they commit themselves. Ruck formed, BANG, ball recycled, next phase. Nice quick ball.

Don't believe for a second we don't have the back three to make ground. Everytime Kearney got the ball he threatened the defence. Trimble threatened the opposition himself a number of times, and Bowe who wasn't on his greatest form, is always a threat. Wales wanted to keep the ball in field all game, and that is exactly what we did. That is why Gatland was probably sitting there smug the entire game as we played into Wales' hands.

SecretFly wrote:Sorry asoreleftshoulder! Think I repeated your point. Didn't see it there. But it's bloody my point too anyway!

No problem I agree with everything you wrote it's frustrating to see our players talent being wasted.

Yeah I don't agree about the back 3, the problem is 12 and 13 and the speed of the ruck ball.

But generally DOD is right about us being pressurised into kicking.

roddersm wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:We lost twice to Wales with O'Gara at 10 and once with Sexton at 10. Neither outhalf has played well in those games. The aimless kicking away of possession has happened in all three games. The annoying thing is, when we keep the ball in hand we score. When we keep kicking it to them they score.

So why are we kicking it to them so much and keeping the ball in hand so little? Presumably because that's the plan.

Two obvious reasons are that we are getting too much slow ball from the ruck, which you can't possibly attack with...ask Scotland if you don't believe me.

The second reason is that we don't have a midfield target to get us over the gainline. Our backrow are marked men and can't carry of first phase and bringing wingers into the line is too obvious and easy to defend.

If you are in your own half and can't get over the gainline then you have no option but to kick the ball away to relieve pressure.

The big problem is that the quality of the kicking is so poor at times and also that too often we kick the ball away in attacking positions too.

Surely a simple solution to the second problem is to move Trimble or Bowe to 12 or bring our backrowers out wider there are solutions to every problem.