Ireland post mortem

First topic message reminder :

Just back from the game.

Firstly - barnes messed up big time for the last penalty. Has to be lifting involved in a tip tackle which there wasn't.

Secondly- Wales probably had a few calls go against them so overall I feel things evened themselves out.

Thirdly- I though Wales were much the better team and were value for a 5-10 point win in my book.

None of which were what I wanted to talk through. I am posting in a reactionary mood so forgive me if I seem too emotional but to me I think the time has come for a change. We have been described as a team in a 'steady transition', not being too wayward with caps and building the next side gradually. Is there a point to building the next side gradually if the present side isn't doing the business though?

I thought today that the difference in Wales approach was stark in the 2nd half. Roberts had got no joy throughout so they switched the attack to north with devastating effect. I have seen no semblance of game plan, no hint of playing what's in front of you or anything to suggest Ireland have remotely half the nous that Wales have.

The players seem inhibited and for me only rob Kearney comes out of the game with any sense of credit (maybe Rory best too). To my mind we are relying on brute force and ignorance and when that doesn't work we have no plan B. I can't recall seeing tommy Bowe having a poorer game. I think it is telling that the two progressive subs weren't used ( as far as I could see). I think the question needs asked that what can Ton McGahan, Joe Schmidt and Brian McLaughlin get out of these guys at provincial level that we aren't seeing at international level.

for me a telling situation was ferris taking a poor up and under in the 2nd half. For ulster he would build up a head of steam and plough into/through the first defender. Today he passed. There is something seriously wrong in the international set up IMO.

For my welsh counterparts again this is more an Irish bitching session and I don't wish to detract from what was a deserved victory. Best of luck and here's to a GS cider against France. To my Irish friends I apologise if I am being overly harsh or emotional but that result has ruined my week and I am gutted and depressed.

Feckless

That doesn't make sense when you look at the provinces playing so well

The reality is that we have enough players in this country to produce 2 / 3 top quality HC teams which in conjunction with the parocial / tribal nature of Ireland means that our provinces are a force to be reckoned with in the Heineken.

Unfortunetly when you condense these players down for international competition we just don't have enough quality players and we are left at a serious disadvantage when compared with the likes of France who had 6 clubs represented in their team against Italy.

I think Leinster are the best club side in Europe at the moment and will take some stopping this year in the HC but having 8 players in the Irish team from one club is not a good thing.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Surely a simple solution to the second problem is to move Trimble or Bowe to 12 or bring our backrowers out wider there are solutions to every problem.

I concur. There are other forgotten guys like Downey and Whitten and the two above who haven't been tried but we don't have an abundence of big, quality 3/4's.

Wales had 3 guys over 17st in the backs, plus Phillips who is 16.5 st. Thats without even their forward ball carriers like Falatau, Jones, Davies etc. Trimble is our biggest back and is giving away 1.5 stone. Bowe was like a schoolboy compared to North.

Remember Davies, Roberts, tuilagi etc aren't just picked becaues they are big, they are really good players.

Your backrow can't just carry all day, they have other tasks too...the same with the tight 5.

MunsterMac wrote:Feckless

That doesn't make sense when you look at the provinces playing so well

The reality is that we have enough players in this country to produce 2 / 3 top quality HC teams which in conjunction with the parocial / tribal nature of Ireland means that our provinces are a force to be reckoned with in the Heineken.

Unfortunetly when you condense these players down for international competition we just don't have enough quality players and we are left at a serious disadvantage when compared with the likes of France who had 6 clubs represented in their team against Italy.

I think Leinster are the best club side in Europe at the moment and will take some stopping this year in the HC but having 8 players in the Irish team from one club is not a good thing.

New Zealand,South Africa and Australia all manage well enough using the same system.

Firstly, I understand that you can be in the wrong part of the pitch to start running the ball. You need a kicking game too obviously. But we are kicking far to much and far to aimlessly.

1. Why kick it straight down the necks of of the big backs that are killing us?
2. Why not put every kick into touch and take their poor lineout apart?

Every ball you nick from a teams lineout saps their morale and puts them under pressure. Every time you give the ball to Welsh backs they're in their element.

Secondly, one of the reasons we were finding ourselves in the wrong part of the pitch was because our drift defence was letting them make huge ground in a very short space of time. They went from their own 22 in two bleedin minutes to score the winning penalty.

Thirdly, when we kept our hands on the ball we put them under pressure and scored two tries. So saying we can't hold onto the ball is just not true. We're not Scotland. We have some lethal backs. We can score tries when we set out to score tries.

These were all tactical errors by Kidney. I do not accept the excuse that our players aren't good enough or that Wales are to good.

roddersm wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Surely a simple solution to the second problem is to move Trimble or Bowe to 12 or bring our backrowers out wider there are solutions to every problem.

I concur. There are other forgotten guys like Downey and Whitten and the two above who haven't been tried but we don't have an abundence of big, quality 3/4's.

Wales had 3 guys over 17st in the backs, plus Phillips who is 16.5 st. Thats without even their forward ball carriers like Falatau, Jones, Davies etc. Trimble is our biggest back and is giving away 1.5 stone. Bowe was like a schoolboy compared to North.

Remember Davies, Roberts, tuilagi etc aren't just picked becaues they are big, they are really good players.

Your backrow can't just carry all day, they have other tasks too...the same with the tight 5.

Just to be clear I meant to say move them to 12 during the game when we need to break the gainline off slow ball not play them at 12 from the start.I have no problem with the team Kidney selected on Sunday the problem I have is that he didn't use those players properly.

We are being 'pressurised' into kicking because every side that meets us knows that's our calling card.

France too, if we play our usual game, will 'pressure' us into kicking. It's only pressure when they know that's the almost guaranteed response. The idea is that they want the ball back. We're only helping along their tactics by obeying their commands.

We don't have the forwards to play the sequences that Rory alluded to above and push our way out of our own half? Are we that bad at that game? How many phases do Munster go through in a game? Our only option is to kick due to pressure?

We are allowing ourselves to be bullied because we're adhering to patterns designed on the training ground. Sexton - and O'Gara!!! - kick because it's a 'plan' - tell me what that plan is and how it in anyway alleviates 'pressure' and I'll never watch another game of rugby as penance.

Kicking is not a reliever of pressure, it is an invitation for attacking sides to - attack. Vital seconds or minutes wasted defending yet again in a game of 80.

Munstermac, we have exactly the same system as Wales

I think Leinster are the best club side in Europe at the moment and will take some stopping this year in the HC but having 8 players in the Irish team from one club is not a good thing.

Wales once started a 6 Nations with 13 Ospreys players didn't they? They won the tournament that year. South Africa's World Cup/Tri-Nations/Lions series winning team was heavily based on the Bulls.

MunsterMac wrote:
I think Leinster are the best club side in Europe at the moment and will take some stopping this year in the HC but having 8 players in the Irish team from one club is not a good thing.

Thats where I disagree. If the team has 12 or 13 Leinster players so be it. The best players should be picked, always. If we are thinking about keeping a provincial balance then we have no chance against the other top tier nations.

I want to see Ulster players in the side but that is a bonus, its about the National team being successful.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Just to be clear I meant to say move them to 12 during the game when we need to break the gainline off slow ball not play them at 12 from the start.I have no problem with the team Kidney selected on Sunday the problem I have is that he didn't use those players properly.

Because its ridiculously obvious thats why. Remember Trimble being smashed against England in August? If Trimble switches to 12 off a set peice then he'll be targetted and flattened. Its the same problem when you use your back row in midfield, there has to be variety and different options.

Another issue is if you get turned over you are exposed defensively in the back 3.

asoreleftshoulder

Well first of all all of those countries have 5 Super 15 teams to pick from.

Secondly both NZ and SA have domestic competitions which have 14 and 8 teams respectively any of which would probably not disgrace themselves in the HC.

And finally at its most basic both NZ and SA both have greater numbers playing the game than Ireland.

Australia are a special case as in almost every sport they seem to have the admirable knack of maximising what they have.

Let me ask you. If you were to force France to only pick from 2 / 3 clubs on Sunday would it weaken their team?

roddersm wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Just to be clear I meant to say move them to 12 during the game when we need to break the gainline off slow ball not play them at 12 from the start.I have no problem with the team Kidney selected on Sunday the problem I have is that he didn't use those players properly.

Because its ridiculously obvious thats why. Remember Trimble being smashed against England in August? If Trimble switches to 12 off a set peice then he'll be targetted and flattened. Its the same problem when you use your back row in midfield, there has to be variety and different options.

Another issue is if you get turned over you are exposed defensively in the back 3.

If that's the case he should be used as a decoy,you can't tell me that there is no possible way we can find a solution to this problem.What if Trimble goes to 12 and Bowe to 13 who would they target then?

Also it's not like D'Arcy or McFadden have no experience of playing on the wing,they would be well able to cover one play.

MunsterMac what are you on about? How can you compare the provincial system to the French club system. All our best players are in 3 teams. Like Wales. Wales have won 2 Grand Slams with the same setup. In fact in '08 most of their team was from the Ospreys. South Africa's domestic club game is meaningless. They picked almost an entire test side from one franchise, the Bulls.

Why are you trying to find endemic problems at the heart of the Irish rugby setup to explain our results? To absolve Kidney of responsibility? It's widely regarded as the best setup in Europe. The reasons for our results have been spelled out over the last 8 pages.

The better solution would be to stop playing a one-dimensional type of game that doesn't work.. moving Trimble/Bowe whoever to 12 actually would suit the game Kidney clearly wants us to play more than anything, but that doesn't mean it is a good game-plan.

Feckless Rogue

Yes but one of the main reasons the regions don't do well in Europe is because the players and fans haven't bought into the system and they don't have the same mini-nationalist thing going on that we have with our provinces..

And even though they beat us on Sunday I wouldn't be holding them up as an example as we're the only decent team they've beaten in the last year.

roddersm

I'm not for one moment suggesting that we have a quota system for the national team.

My point is that a top quality HC player dosen't automatically mean you are a quality international player and even though all of those 8 Leinster players are excellent HC players some of them are very ordinary international players.

But that has nothing to do with the setup, and everything to do with the management failing to recognize who the ordinary test players are and dropping them.

Anyway,

What about Sexton at 12? He's a playmaker (unlike D'arcy), who is defensively excellent (unlike D'arcy), and has a kicking game (unlike D'arcy).

It's a short term solution obviously, but in the short term we are desperately short of a good 12 and we still have O'Gara for outhalf.

We had the option of a creative 12 but he has been sent back to Ulster. Anyway I really don't think it matters who we pick where at this point - the game plan is all wrong.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
If that's the case he should be used as a decoy,you can't tell me that there is no possible way we can find a solution to this problem.What if Trimble goes to 12 and Bowe to 13 who would they target then?

Also it's not like D'Arcy or McFadden have no experience of playing on the wing,they would be well able to cover one play.

No I agree we need to be more open minded and try things. Like I say I think Whitten has potential and O'Malley and Hanaran have a bit off cutting edge. Theres Spence and Cave too. Fitzgerald as well.

There are things to try so its not hopeless. I'm just saying there's no silver bullet. Its a long standing problem that we need to address. O'Brien gave us go forward last season but he and the other backrowers are marked men now. We need to have more in our armery.

MunsterMac wrote: asoreleftshoulder

Well first of all all of those countries have 5 Super 15 teams to pick from.

Secondly both NZ and SA have domestic competitions which have 14 and 8 teams respectively any of which would probably not disgrace themselves in the HC.

And finally at its most basic both NZ and SA both have greater numbers playing the game than Ireland.

Australia are a special case as in almost every sport they seem to have the admirable knack of maximising what they have.

Let me ask you. If you were to force France to only pick from 2 / 3 clubs on Sunday would it weaken their team?

First of all the fact that they have 5 teams is new so can be disregarded,how did the cope with only 4 in S.A. and 3 in Oz's case.

2nd point is a good one although I think you seriously overestimate how good some of those teams are.The top 3 Super teams from NZ and S.A. plus the top 2 from Oz are very good but the quality falls away after that.

How have Wales managed to do well if you want another example.Your point might make sense if it was only one country that managed it but we now have 4 examples.

Yes of course if France could only pick from 2/3 clubs as things stand it would weaken them but if all the best players played for those 2/3 like they do in Ireland,Wales,N.Z,S.A. and Oz then no I don't think it would be a problem.

roddersm wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
If that's the case he should be used as a decoy,you can't tell me that there is no possible way we can find a solution to this problem.What if Trimble goes to 12 and Bowe to 13 who would they target then?

Also it's not like D'Arcy or McFadden have no experience of playing on the wing,they would be well able to cover one play.

No I agree we need to be more open minded and try things. Like I say I think Whitten has potential and O'Malley and Hanaran have a bit off cutting edge. Theres Spence and Cave too. Fitzgerald as well.

There are things to try so its not hopeless. I'm just saying there's no silver bullet. Its a long standing problem that we need to address. O'Brien gave us go forward last season but he and the other backrowers are marked men now. We need to have more in our armery.

I've said it many times Rodders but I have never rated Whitten nor Paul Marshall. Then this season something happened. Sorry to transfer this from another thread but their development says alot about the work Brian McLaughlin has been doing with the Ulster players. Ireland could do a hell of a lot worse that play the Ulster centres who defended so well against Clermont. Who partnered Whitten that day? It couldn't be that guy that can't tackle yet was tremendous that day? Hmmmmmmmm, you know, whats his face there.

roddersm wrote:
O'Brien gave us go forward last season but he and the other backrowers are marked men now. We need to have more in our armery.

This point is key I believe.Why was he able to do it last season but not anymore,you say that he's being marked closer yet logically that means that someone else is being marked looser,why aren't we identifying who that is and using him.

I never rated Whitten either but since this season I've changed my mind. He far better than Downey and battered Mafi at Xmas. Should have made the Wolfhounds imo and shouldn't be dismissed as a potential option.

Hes one of the few naturally 16st plus 3/4's we have available and a decent all round player.

Feckless Rogue

MunsterMac what are you on about? How can you compare the provincial system to the French club system. All our best players are in 3 teams.

That's precisely my point. To be exact all our players are in 3 teams good bad or indifferent.

The reason I'm comparing us to France is that France have 7 or 8 top quality clubs to pick their players from whereas we have 3 and over the last 10 years that has often been 2 or 2.5 with all due respect to Ulster.

The point I'm trying to explain is why our provinces do so well in the HC but the same players can't do it at international level.

My explaination is that part of the reason is that you can't expect to base an international team on 3 clubs and expect to compete with the likes of France who can base their team on 7 or 8 clubs.

It would be like expecting France to pick a team purely from Toulouse, Clermont and Toulon. It would be still a very good team but not as good as the one we'll face on Saturday.

Why are you trying to find endemic problems at the heart of the Irish rugby setup to explain our results? To absolve Kidney of responsibility? .

The only endemic problem I can see at the heart of Irish rugby is that we don't have enough players to pick from. The IRFU need to start tapping into some of that undoubted GAA talent and get of its ass and properly support Connacht.

It's widely regarded as the best setup in Europe

It is widly regarded as the best setup for winning HCs but obviously there must be something amiss at international level as the results over the last 17 years show. I'm not trying to absolve Kidney of anything but he's only been in charge since 2008.

One positive I can think of is that when Ireland do learn how to play rugby, we have excellent depth in the centres. For 12, we have Marshall and Hanrahan, both look like quite similar players, both very good players. Strong, pacy, but most importantly, creative. They are both born to play running rugby. At 13 we have Spence, Cave, Griffin, EOM etc etc etc. Lots of options there.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

roddersm wrote:
O'Brien gave us go forward last season but he and the other backrowers are marked men now. We need to have more in our armery.

This point is key I believe.Why was he able to do it last season but not anymore,you say that he's being marked closer yet logically that means that someone else is being marked looser,why aren't we identifying who that is and using him.

Well that is the thing, if you look at Ferris he has a much more dominant role in terms of ball carrying than he does for Ireland. Why is that? Because that isn't the type of game he is assigned to play for Ireland (wrongly). SOB has added a lot to his game, but on Sunday I saw him make more tackles than he has ever made in a game. He did very well, but that does restrict him a lot. He needed to play that role however because of how weak our centres are.

asoreleftshoulder

How have Wales managed to do well if you want another example.Your point might make sense if it was only one country that managed it but we now have 4 examples.

The reality is Wales haven't really done all that well. Their record against SH teams is much poorer than ours and they've won one more GS than us since 1995. They're regularily ranked below us and since the game went pro we've beaten them much more than they've beaten us.

Yes of course if France could only pick from 2/3 clubs as things stand it would weaken them but if all the best players played for those 2/3 like they do in Ireland,Wales,N.Z,S.A. and Oz then no I don't think it would be a problem.

I'm obviously not explaining myself very well.

Think of it this way.

How many Leinster players would find employment with Toulouse, Clermont, Toulon or USAP?

I would venture nearly all of them as most Leinster players are top quality club players.

Now how many of them would make it into the French team?

Very few I would imagine. Why? Because alot of them are very ordinary international players.

The question I set out to answer is why do we do so well at HC level but so badly at International level.

My answer is that we have more than enough players of HC quality all of whom are condensed into 3 teams which taken in conjuction with our mini-nationalist provincial fervour means we do magnificently in Europe.

But 3 teams filled with HC quality players with the odd top quality international player is not enough to compete with the likes of France, NZ or SA.

I think France would love the idea of having someone like Ferris/SOB/Heaslip in their ranks. I think they would suit the France game-plan magnificently (hint Kidney - watch France play rugby). A backrow of Ferris, SOB and Picamoles would be mouth watering! Though Heaslip redeemed himself on Sunday to be fair

I think France would love the idea of having someone like Ferris/SOB/Heaslip in their ranks. I think they would suit the France game-plan magnificently (hint Kidney - watch France play rugby). A backrow of Ferris, SOB and Picamoles would be mouth watering! Though Heaslip redeemed himself on Sunday to be fair

Would you pick Heaslip ahead of Harinordoquy?? I wouldn't but that's my opinion.

A backrow of Ferris, SOB and Picamoles would be mouth watering

So at best you pick one of those Leinster 8 for the French team.

Well since Picamoles is ahead of both of them, I would pick neither.

Heaslip was brilliant on Saturday as was POC and Best.

Ferris, SOB and Healy are marked men so we need to reflect that in our selection and tactics.

I think we tried on Sunday but we need to try harder.

Ferris isn't even marked really - he just doesn't do for Ireland what he does for Ulster. SOB is marked for Leinster and Ireland, but he has expanded his game and is an excellent support player. He will always be a danger to the opposition and that is why he links up so well with the likes of Heaslip. They both are restricted with Ireland however.

MunsterMac wrote: But 3 teams filled with HC quality players with the odd top quality international player is not enough to compete with the likes of France, NZ or SA.

Or, it seems, Wales...

Where do Wales come from if you told their story? From the talent pool of 4 regions (same as us) with, on evidence, substandard HC quality players but, according to the papers, ravishingly good internationals.

How do we do the sums on that one? Where does the logic come in there?

You might also simplify it and say coaching plays a part in Munster's continuing, consistent presence at the business end of HC competition, and that coaching (over the years) has turned Leinster into a similar beast. Coaching, not players, might be responsible for Welsh regional lack of success, Welsh national reasonable success, Irish provincial great success and Irish national dubious success. It's not always the players who are at fault. And if different players use the same tactics, you can almost bet that it isn't their fault.

And even if Leinster didn't have the same individual brilliance in their team (which I don't agree with), they still work as a team and that is far more important. Sexton takes charge, he always seems to control the game and the players are all on the same wavelength. They want to threaten the opposition try line, they want to be creative, take risks, and score points. Add in Munster's solidity, and you have a very solid team, who are on the same wavelength (even the Munster backs, like Earls, would suit playing for Leinster) and want to attack, but are equally strong in defence.

However you contrast this with Ireland, who are bizarrely disorganised and lacking in creativity, and you have to look at the tactics being enforced.

[quote="MunsterMac"] asoreleftshoulder

The reality is Wales haven't really done all that well. Their record against SH teams is much poorer than ours and they've won one more GS than us since 1995. They're regularily ranked below us and since the game went pro we've beaten them much more than they've beaten us.

Okay then how have we done so well over the history of the 6 nations we mightn't have won it much but we've been consistently top 2.

I'm obviously not explaining myself very well.

Think of it this way.

How many Leinster players would find employment with Toulouse, Clermont, Toulon or USAP?

I would venture nearly all of them as most Leinster players are top quality club players.

I'd agree but don't see your point it's not like all these top quality club but average internationals are playing for Ireland only 8 are,so ionly the best Leinster players play at international level.

Now how many of them would make it into the French team?

Very few I would imagine. Why? Because alot of them are very ordinary international players.

I'd say Kearney,Sexton,Heaslip,SOB and Healy would all be very close with it coming down to the coach,I'd also say that Ferris,Best,O'Connell and Earls (as a winger) would also be right in the mix plus Bowe if he could find his top form again.Obviously they aren't Leinster players but the point is I think our internationals are just as good as the French.

The question I set out to answer is why do we do so well at HC level but so badly at International level.

My answer is that we have more than enough players of HC quality all of whom are condensed into 3 teams which taken in conjuction with our mini-nationalist provincial fervour means we do magnificently in Europe.

But 3 teams filled with HC quality players with the odd top quality international player is not enough to compete with the likes of France, NZ or SA.

Fine I don't agree but won't labour the point but this is my main concern could you explain why we can't currently compete with Wales and are finding it a struggle to get over Scotland and Italy despite these teams having even worse structures than ours?

Feckless Rogue wrote:We lost twice to Wales with O'Gara at 10 and once with Sexton at 10. Neither outhalf has played well in those games. The aimless kicking away of possession has happened in all three games. The annoying thing is, when we keep the ball in hand we score. When we keep kicking it to them they score.

So why are we kicking it to them so much and keeping the ball in hand so little? Presumably because that's the plan. But why is it the plan? I don't think either Sexton or O'Gara are coming up with it. It's reasonable to assume Kidney is. Or one of his coaching team is and Kidney is giving it the green light. That's why I'm criticizing him.

Wales have beaten us three times in a year. They haven't beaten any other decent team in a competitive fixture in that time. The provinces results have gotten better in the last 3 years. The Irish teams results has gotten worse.

Now people are actually saying that Kidneys tactics are good, but the players just aren't good enough to win? That doesn't make sense when you look at the provinces playing so well, with the same players, but far more ambitious, offensive tactics.

I agree with all of that FR.

Kidney selects Sexton and then tells him to kick the ball into their half ala ROG - why didn't he just select O'Gara who is more accustomed to that? The truth is that it didn't work with ROG and unsurprisingly the same gameplan didn't work with Sexton. So are two of the most proficient fly halves in Europe at fault or is it the game they are being asked to play?

Why wasn't Sexton kicking to touch when Ireland had a distict advantage from the line? Kidney was obviously worried by the Welsh backs having too much room off first phase, and he was proved right once, but equally Ireland won 25% of the opposition throw. In short it looks as though Kidney had no faith in his backs to keep the lid on their opposite numbers so he wanted to keep everything tight in the middle of the pitch to allow a forwards' arm wrestle.

YET Ireland's backs showed they can open up defences when they risk off-loading in the tackle. Last year England were a team that Kidney didn't think he could compete with in an arm wrestle so he gave the backs more freedon to play with the ball in hand.

Ireland with the same players playing at the same level of performance could have beaten Wales in their last two games if Kidney had got his tactics right - instead Gatland has out thought him and knocked him out of the running for the Lions gig.

SecretFly

There's no doubt but that Wales are blessed at the moment with some very exiting talent especially in the backs but the facts are that over the last year they haven't done all that well at international level.

They've beaten us 3 times in that period but 2 of those results were fortunate at the end of the day and were decided by dubious decisions.

Other than that they've lost to England, France and Australia twice & South Africa once.

Generally over the last 17 years of pro rugby we've had the upper hand against them and a better O/A record in the 6Ns and against SH teams so I wouldn't beat ourselves up over their current record against us.

You might also simplify it and say coaching plays a part in Munster's continuing, consistent presence at the business end of HC competition,

Yes you could and undoubtedly that is part of it but most people realise there's much more to it than that.

In 2009, defensive, kicking teams held all the major trophies in world rugby. Even Leinsters HEC win was based more on defence than attacks.

In 2012, attacking teams hold all the major trophies in rugby. The game has changed. Kidney hasn't. And the problem is, I don't think he can.

Ferris cleared according to Stag. No details yet has anyone heard anything?

IRFU Twitter:

'Word from London is that Stephen Ferris has been cleared at the citing hearing.'

Not sure if that is official but would be a right balls up if he was actually banned

Okay then how have we done so well over the history of the 6 nations we mightn't have won it much but we've been consistently top 2.

Simple.

We almost always beat Scotland and Italy as they are very poor teams with even fewer teams and players to pick from.

We more oftern than not beat the Welsh who have a similar system and player base as us.

The very sight of the red rose throws us into a frenzy meaning we almost always play at our best or even slightly above ourselves allied to the fact that since they won the World Cup England have managed to make a horlicks of a rugby setup that should be one of the strongest on the planet .

Which brings me to why we rarely do better than 2nd. - FRANCE.

I'd agree but don't see your point it's not like all these top quality club but average internationals are playing for Ireland only 8 are,so ionly the best Leinster players play at international level.

My point is that if we had a 4th or a 5th club side perhaps only 3 or 4 or 5 of those Leinster players would be playing as the remainder would be replaced by better players from Connacht or elsewhere. Better players who might make Ireland a better team.

I'd say Kearney,Sexton,Heaslip,SOB and Healy would all be very close with it coming down to the coach,I'd also say that Ferris,Best,O'Connell and Earls (as a winger) would also be right in the mix plus Bowe if he could find his top form again.Obviously they aren't Leinster players but the point is I think our internationals are just as good as the French.

I think some of our internationals are as good as the French but far from all. For example I don't believe Heaslip would get anywhere near the French team ahead of Picamoles or Harinordoquy.

Fine I don't agree but won't labour the point but this is my main concern could you explain why we can't currently compete with Wales and are finding it a struggle to get over Scotland and Italy despite these teams having even worse structures than ours?

As I said above we normally do well against the Welsh except over the last year.

Italy have never beaten us in the 6Ns and Scotland aren't too proud of their record against us either I'd wager.

Its a balls up anyway!

MunsterMac wrote:SecretFly

There's no doubt but that Wales are blessed at the moment with some very exiting talent especially in the backs but the facts are that over the last year they haven't done all that well at international level.

They've beaten us 3 times in that period but 2 of those results were fortunate at the end of the day and were decided by dubious decisions.

Other than that they've lost to England, France and Australia twice & South Africa once.

Generally over the last 17 years of pro rugby we've had the upper hand against them and a better O/A record in the 6Ns and against SH teams so I wouldn't beat ourselves up over their current record against us.

You might also simplify it and say coaching plays a part in Munster's continuing, consistent presence at the business end of HC competition,

Yes you could and undoubtedly that is part of it but most people realise there's much more to it than that.

I understand your reasoning and I don't doubt it when it gets into French and SH territory. Country sizes and resources start outstripping club form the bigger they get - England remain a question mark on that one though!! But I do take the point you make that it is almost impossible to continuously compete with big countries, or countries where rugby is so much more ingrained into the culture.

But I just don't buy this idea that suddenly Wales has found a deep vein of talent and Gatland is just rolling with the cream and armchair riding his way to perhaps a future inauguration as homecoming king and new All Blacks coach.

No - he's working his socks off. It's hard work and he's into it - he is possessed. Why? Because people forget that he's been close enough on the edge of losing his job at Wales...Welsh people are impatient (like us) and before the relative success they are enjoying now, came the stuff you alluded to. They've been below the standards they wanted to be at and the very same coach was leading them along, with very little hope of a rise.

He knew it needed major work and he's decided the Welsh want to see their players given the rope to express themselves and he's giving them the tools to do so. It was a risk for him because you can say many things about Gatland but he's never proven himself to be so much of a risk taker. He got the kick from Ireland because he almost brought our backs to a standstill (maybe to annoy the guy on his tail at the time).

But he is there now, life in his eyes and brutal regimes installed to get players into the condition to play the heads-up, high-tempo, offloading and aggresive attacking game they play. It isn't the players doing that naturally - it's a plan and it's military in precision. They were back in Poland before the game against Ireland. North, the star of the show, said he felt totally refreshed by the regime Gatland uses there.

In brief, Gatland is giving decent but not gifted HC quality players the tools and patterns to be able to lift themselves at International level. He is doing a remarkable job with players who wouldn't get into the top five European sides. They would now of course! Based on strictly International form - but as club players - no.

Coaching paying dividends. Ordinary players turned into International giants.

Fair point, I should've said a further balls up!

by Feckless Rogue Today at 3:19 pm

.In 2009, defensive, kicking teams held all the major trophies in world rugby. Even Leinsters HEC win was based more on defence than attacks.

In 2012, attacking teams hold all the major trophies in rugby. The game has changed. Kidney hasn't. And the problem is, I don't think he can.

I don't necessarily disagree with that Feckless and it probably one of the reasons we are in the doldrums at the moment.

SecretFly

I agree with everything you say and there is no doubt that the current Irish coaching team isn't getting the best out of the players.

However even though we are all curently hurting after losing to the Welsh on Sunday I don't think we should fall into the trap of holding up the Welsh team that beat us as the zenith of what we should be aiming for.

Afterall they are not NZ or SA and they failed to beat Austrailia twice in the last few months, once at home.

They have the indian sign over us at the moment but it's not that long since they were looking across the Irish Sea shaking their heads wondering what they were doing wrong and we were doing right.

And knowing the fickleness of Welsh rugby the tables could be turned in the blink of an eye.

We should concentrate on our own problems be they structural, coaching etc and get them sorted.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote: I've said it many times Rodders but I have never rated Whitten nor Paul Marshall. .

To be honest I would put Marshall's improvement down, almost solely, down to Pienaer not McLaughlin

MunsterMac wrote:

Fine I don't agree but won't labour the point but this is my main concern could you explain why we can't currently compete with Wales and are finding it a struggle to get over Scotland and Italy despite these teams having even worse structures than ours?

As I said above we normally do well against the Welsh except over the last year.

Italy have never beaten us in the 6Ns and Scotland aren't too proud of their record against us either I'd wager.

I don't see any point going over the rest of your post as we don't agree and I can't se anything I say changing that.

I'll address your final point and say we aren't discussing the last 10-15 years we're discussing Kidneys reign one in which Ireland have lost 4 times to Wales twice to Scotland and while never losing to Italy have only ever put in one acceptable performance against them.

Irish teams doing well in the Heineken Cup is a new phenomenon,when we were consistent but just short of being a world class team we had one very top class province in Munster backed up by an average Leinster and a poor Ulster and Connacht.

Currently we are a worse international team with one top class province in Leinster and two very strong teams in Munster and Ulster with a poor Connacht providing a few squad players.Your argument doesn't stand up as we were very successful internationally when our player depth and talent were much poorer than they are currently.

MunsterMac wrote: SecretFly

I agree with everything you say and there is no doubt that the current Irish coaching team isn't getting the best out of the players.

However even though we are all curently hurting after losing to the Welsh on Sunday I don't think we should fall into the trap of holding up the Welsh team that beat us as the zenith of what we should be aiming for.

Afterall they are not NZ or SA and they failed to beat Austrailia twice in the last few months, once at home.

They have the indian sign over us at the moment but it's not that long since they were looking across the Irish Sea shaking their heads wondering what they were doing wrong and we were doing right.

And knowing the fickleness of Welsh rugby the tables could be turned in the blink of an eye.

We should concentrate on our own problems be they structural, coaching etc and get them sorted.

Now I'm agreeing with everything you say! And you're correct - I personally don't like using Wales as a yardstick because even this year it might prove a fragile one to use - but I think if we're aiming higher - and I think our players have a right to say they aim higher, then I'd like it to start with coherant plans - and if that means improved everything from training to diet regimes then it needs to be done.... and a win against Wales the next time we meet them....as a beginning.

Skysports says that Ferris citing not upheld. he is free to play v France.

FitzStephen wrote:Skysports says that Ferris citing not upheld. he is free to play v France.

They should deduct Wales 3 points and strip Barnes refereeing licence too.

Great analysis by Alan Quinlan in today's Irish Times. In short, he thinks the players need to man-up.

I wouldn’t blame the Irish management for what happened. I’ve heard people say it’s down to a conservative management and all that kind of thing but that’s not what stood out against Wales. This defeat was down to the players. They needed to step up and take control, demand the ball and make plays that wouldn’t be expected of them. They just didn’t do it enough.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0208/1224311465459.html