Ireland post mortem

First topic message reminder :

Just back from the game.

Firstly - barnes messed up big time for the last penalty. Has to be lifting involved in a tip tackle which there wasn't.

Secondly- Wales probably had a few calls go against them so overall I feel things evened themselves out.

Thirdly- I though Wales were much the better team and were value for a 5-10 point win in my book.

None of which were what I wanted to talk through. I am posting in a reactionary mood so forgive me if I seem too emotional but to me I think the time has come for a change. We have been described as a team in a 'steady transition', not being too wayward with caps and building the next side gradually. Is there a point to building the next side gradually if the present side isn't doing the business though?

I thought today that the difference in Wales approach was stark in the 2nd half. Roberts had got no joy throughout so they switched the attack to north with devastating effect. I have seen no semblance of game plan, no hint of playing what's in front of you or anything to suggest Ireland have remotely half the nous that Wales have.

The players seem inhibited and for me only rob Kearney comes out of the game with any sense of credit (maybe Rory best too). To my mind we are relying on brute force and ignorance and when that doesn't work we have no plan B. I can't recall seeing tommy Bowe having a poorer game. I think it is telling that the two progressive subs weren't used ( as far as I could see). I think the question needs asked that what can Ton McGahan, Joe Schmidt and Brian McLaughlin get out of these guys at provincial level that we aren't seeing at international level.

for me a telling situation was ferris taking a poor up and under in the 2nd half. For ulster he would build up a head of steam and plough into/through the first defender. Today he passed. There is something seriously wrong in the international set up IMO.

For my welsh counterparts again this is more an Irish bitching session and I don't wish to detract from what was a deserved victory. Best of luck and here's to a GS cider against France. To my Irish friends I apologise if I am being overly harsh or emotional but that result has ruined my week and I am gutted and depressed.

End of the game we lost by score but truth be told we were well below standard on intensity and precision

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Jeez, this feckin thread is like the Irish team... everyone defending their province first, thinking about Ireland second.

Actually its not

Geoff Clermonts backs are not on par with Wales in terms of size and power.

At Ravenhill we were able to out muscle them up front and in Clermont we were beat so I don't get your point.

Ireland were not able to dominate the Welsh pack and control territory and posession so we were always goint to struggle.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Jeez, this feckin thread is like the Irish team... everyone defending their province first, thinking about Ireland second.

I'm from Ulster defending SOB. Haven't seen anybody else defending their province first (maybe Sin). So what are you on about?

roddersm wrote:

WillyGilly wrote:Rodders our defense was shoite!!!! We conceeded 3 tries and let Wales fight their way the length of the pitch in the final 2 minutes to get the decisive score!!!

Wales just have bigger, better ball carriers Willy. It is a testiment to our defence that we didn't concede 5 or 6 tries with the amount of posession they had.

We just don't have ball carrying midfield targets of that size and quality so they're no point blaming kidney about it.

D'arcy and McFadden did much better than I expected. Bowe was the only player who was really poor. It was clear before the game that we were over matched in the 3/4s and would struggle.

I'd like to see the same team against France and I believe we will beat them.

Rodders I disagree with soooo much of this I have no idea where to begin.

Firstly in terms of big ball carriers, surely our awesome backrow has to come into play? In the centre yes they certainly completely outstrip us in terms of ball carriers on the wings? To be honest I though Trimble could have sought out more work in this department.

D'Arcy and McFadden were poor in both attack and defence. For them both hailing from the same Provence their seemed to be a real lack of understanding and communication. Bowe was poor. Ignoring the fact he set up and scored a try that's comfortably one of his worst performances.

Ahem if we select that same team for saturday evening we will lose. Simple as. In fact I doubt we'll win whatever team we select. My prediction for Saturday? An improved performance where we run them close ala last years match. On what are you basing you blind optimism? Because I saw nothing yesterday to suggest we are remotely capable of winning in France.

Care for a wager?

That brings another good point WillyGilly, thanks!

Leinster have D'Arcy and McFadden in the centres, who are weak defensively yes but we all must agree they did have a part to play in attack the few times we did. Now, how come for Leinster they are fine but for Ireland they are not? Simple. Leinster and Ireland both play different tactics. We can change the centre partnership too and it wouldn't change a thing really.

Peter has explained why we kicked the ball away!

If we'd have sent D'arcy, Mcfadden or even Trimble into contact off 1st or 2nd phase we would have been driven backwards. Then you are at risk of turning the ball over or conceding a penalty.

That would have been suicidal and playing into Welsh hands. If you don't have ball carriers then you have to kick the ball away.

Excellent post there Hooky - you've got it right about SOB. He is doing his best as a 7, but it isn't working out.

Rory - Leinster were losing the HCup final badly until Shane Jennings came on and SOB was moved to 6. SOB has not been having such a spectacular season this year because a) he is targetted more and b) he has been playing 7 mainly for Leinster (and Leinster haven't really had any top opposition this season).

roddersm wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Agree Mick. Ireland have a big problem in their centers. Welcome to England for the last 9 years.

Wales seem to have amassed a collection of gentic freaks across their backline, the mismatch in size was noticebale. I can undertand the frustration about kicking the ball away, but whats the point in some of these Irish backs running headlong into their opposite number knowing full wele they will get shamed back? Its very hard to make spoace in Modern union without going through a couple of phases, if Irleand havent got the players to draw defenders and win contact they have a problem ( although SOB is a mosnter for this), equally with the Welsh backs able to get change against the Irish on a regular basis it makes their forwards job in securing quick ball a lot easier as well as breaking up the defensive line.


Ireland were always in this game though. The wasy some people are talking it was a major defeat. Aside form teh lineout Wales very pretty strong all round, they played at the upper end of their game yet still relied partly on a couple of contentious reffing decisions to get on the right side of a very tight game.

+ 1000. Thank you Peter for speaking some sense. People are really losing the plot here.

It was a major defeat. It probably means we won't win the Championship this year. We need to get the mentality into Irish sport that second is nowhere, winning is everything and there are no moral victories. We also need to get the mentality that we do not, ever, lose at home. I don't care how good the opposition are.

Test rugby is a higher level of rugby than the Heineken Cup but if any of the provinces were 6 points ahead with 10 minutes to go, those last 10 minutes would be their most intense of the game in terms of their defence and rucking. The sheer desire to get over the line would bring them home. Where was the desire? Where was the intensity? We stood off them in defence and we stood off at the breakdown.

I think that people are saying we shouldn't lose our heads because based on performance we may well be the second best team of the weekend. But we're not going to accept being the second best of anything. If the provinces did that, we certainly wouldn't have three teams in the quarter-finals. And yet when it comes to the national side we're meant to accept it? No.

Look at Wales for a moment. There's a team with a coach who won't accept being second best, who has the right attitude. Any defeat is not good enough for this Wales team. And we need to emulate that.

Notch I'm not accepting second best but we can't replay the game!

I hate the fact that we lost but Wales are better! FACT!

But do I think we can or should make whoesale changes? No!

There were enough positives for me to believe the we can win our remaining games and were we were poor there are no better options.

Sin é wrote:Excellent post there Hooky - you've got it right about SOB. He is doing his best as a 7, but it isn't working out.

Rory - Leinster were losing the HCup final badly until Shane Jennings came on and SOB was moved to 6. SOB has not been having such a spectacular season this year because a) he is targetted more and b) he has been playing 7 mainly for Leinster (and Leinster haven't really had any top opposition this season).

It is working fine for Leinster this season. I was in agreement last season that because Jennings came on at 7 instead of SOB that is why Leinster played a different game. But actually, I think there were a lot more factors than that, and it just happened to be that Jennings came on at a good time when Leinster totally changed things around. Northampton don't have a 7 either, but they got fast ball in the first half by using their huge forwards to knock anyone contesting the ball away, and recycle fast ball. Simple. Also SOB was not as effective last year as a 7, it is only this season he has really adapted.

SOB has been great at 7 this year Sin, I don't know why you are saying he hasn't been when he is making plenty of turnovers and being a nuisance at the breakdown. If people only care about his running game, then you are not going to think he is as good this year. But if you have been watching him at the breakdown, his link play, and his general reading of the game you would agree he has become a much more balanced player than he has been before. Not as flashy, but that doesn't matter, especially since we want a back row unit and not individuals anyway. As you said yourself, Hook.

a couple of things...

All OHs look great when their team is going forward so when Sexton was under pressure how can it be said that it was the coaches tactics that made him kick the ball down the throat of the Welsh back 3 (regardless of other misses). The old aimless kicking he has again...

In addition Wally is still far superior to SOB in the 7 shirt as he has the all round game and ability to make the major plays when needed and give us go forward ball.

Lastly as is clear HC does not = Intl standard. Just because some teams and players look the part in the HC does not translate to the intl setup. Tactics might play a part but poor individual play does not help either...of which there was plenty yesterday.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:SOB is not just a ball carrier and has added a lot more to his game this season. He has been playing at 7 effectively for Leinster, so why are you saying "oh he is a 6/8 that is where he is best for Leinster". He won player of the year last year at 6, 7 and 8, doing brilliantly in each of the positions. He IS really underrated at the breakdown. What was ineffective about what he did? The fact he wasn't able to teleport to each ruck that Tipuric got into and push him off the ball? That isn't down to SOB. He slowed down the ball, made turnovers. Makes more for Leinster, so I hope he can make more for Ireland in the future.

That is what I am arguing with you about, not your opinion on the back row as a unit. You said firstly that backs have zero part to play in securing ball which is completely ridiculous, and that SOB is ineffective as a breakdown player, which is also complete rubbish and if you have watched Leinster at all this season, you would not be saying these things. SOB has added more to his game this season and he needed to. His carrying is not as effective whether he is a 6, 7 or 8, and that is because ball carriers always get marked eventually. He is much more balanced now as a player.

What I am saying is that the centres were being given very poor ball to work with because the pack are not winning enough clean ball. I think here you are seeing the chicken, I am seeing the egg (or maybe the other ay round). The backs have a role to play as BOD has consistently shown over the years. What I am saying is that in first phase possession, where we are consistently being better, the forwards and the backrow in particular are not doing enough.

And every word you just said about SOB I could swap for Ferris, and Ulster in for Leinster. The difference is that we you have three players working together as a unit it allows SOB, Ferris or whoever to be more effective as an individual. Alot of that is down to playing alongside Jennings and Henry. It might also be down to being told exactly what their roles are on the pitch. You are saying SOB slowed ball down and what have you. Good for him. So did his partners on occasion. There's the problem. On occasion. I don't remember once thinking 'didn't SOB and Ferris do well there at the breakdown. Didn't Heaslip and Ferris clear that ruck out well. That's great counter rucking from the Irish backrow.' As a unit they fail miserably. I am not blaming any one player than any other. I would like to see players best strengths being used to the full. You seem to feel that if I mention SOB is a good ball carrier he can't be good at anything else. SOB can play the same game at 6 or 8 as he does at 7. For someone who believes these numbers are unimportant you are putting an awful lot of stock in them. I would just prefer to have someone in there whose role is mayhem at the breakdown. Bring me back Keith Gleeson who was brilliant at that, but also came up with a few good ball carries a game as well. That could be Chris Henry. To use your words, if had been watching Ulster at all this season in the big games you would have seen how outstanding he has been in this role.

Also, apologies Rory. Your jihad for SOB led me to believe you were a Leinsterman. I see you are a fellow Ulsterman!

So what happened to the much vaunted Irish back row again?

They played ok and had to try and cover poor tackling from most of the team!

Why would I think 6,7 or 8 aren't important?

Every position is important! And must function as a unit, and our team isn't doing that. The backrow can't be singled out, the unit works fine for Leinster with someone of a lower standard than Ferris at 6 (McLaughlin). None of the Ireland team are functioning as a unit however. Like I said, put it the possibly most well balanced back row in world rugby of Kaino, McCaw and Read, and I doubt they would look good either.

bedfordwelsh wrote:So what happened to the much vaunted Irish back row again?

It wasnt England, so they didnt try

bedfordwelsh wrote:So what happened to the much vaunted Irish back row again?

Well Heaslip played better than anyone on either side at back row, possibly excluding Jones. SOB made the most tackles. What happened to Faletau, the most overhyped 8 in the world right now, again? barely noticed him playing.

bedfordwelsh wrote:So what happened to the much vaunted Irish back row again?

What happened yours? Warburton went off at half time and Faletau was anonomous despite Wales having 70% posession.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Why would I think 6,7 or 8 aren't important?

Every position is important! And must function as a unit, and our team isn't doing that. The backrow can't be singled out, the unit works fine for Leinster with someone of a lower standard than Ferris at 6 (McLaughlin). None of the Ireland team are functioning as a unit however. Like I said, put it the possibly most well balanced back row in world rugby of Kaino, McCaw and Read, and I doubt they would look good either.

I meant the importance of the numbers on their shirt, not the actual position. I think if you stuck in that New Zealand back row we would at least get parity. That's a unit who know exactly what their roles are. I don't think the Irish backrow do. Maybe where we differ is that you believe if they did they would be an effective unit and I don't.

bedfordwelsh wrote:So what happened to the much vaunted Irish back row again?

Didn't the fall to the knees of the Welsh backrow and beg not to be slain??

So now it's the much vaunted Welsh backrow. Live with the acclaim. And now also back it up everytime you play

Don Alfonso wrote:For me, what crystallises the problems Ireland are having was Sexton's long-range penalty in our own half.

We had just scored a try. We had some momentum. We had a lineout that was running very well, with nary a miscall or a wayward dart for Bestie all game. Bradley Davis was still in the bin.

Going for an unlikely penalty rather than a lineout further in demonstrates perfectly the issue. A lack of faith, and intensity that waxes and wanes far too much. We score a try, we sit on our hands and wait for Wales' next move.

I wonder if Les Kiss was stretched too thin, because that was the poorest Irish defensive performance I've seen in a while. It took three men not to stop George North, but to impede him a bit, so that he scored a second later than if he had run in unopposed.

All this stuff about a traditional 7 is a distraction from the real issues. We're obssessed with our backrow. Forget about them. They weren't great, but let's focus on the poor tactics, poor leadership, and poor midfield. That's what we need to address.

Well put. And we need to look at our coaching team. Just look at them mind. They wont change for 18 months yet. We are stuck with it and rather than be negative about it, I think Deccie should start looking at getting in a French Backs Coach ASAP. That would stir it up. Any ideas folks?

And dont mention Schmidt (ASM/Leinster). We need another 2 x Heinos out of him.

Rory,

Totally agree with you on Faletau was most probably his quietest and poorest game for Wales.

I said all week that we would miss Lydiate but in fairness to R Jones, who I have criticised a lot of we didn't.

Was interesting to see us use the much lighter Tipuric as a line out option as well when he came on.

And in the art of fairness etc I am a huge Heaslip

roddersm wrote:Geoff Clermonts backs are not on par with Wales in terms of size and power.

At Ravenhill we were able to out muscle them up front and in Clermont we were beat so I don't get your point.

Ireland were not able to dominate the Welsh pack and control territory and posession so we were always goint to struggle.

Not going to get into that full pelt but are you suggesting fofana, malzieu, sivivatu and rougerie not to mention Lee Byrne aren't of a similar statute to the welsh backs!

Rodders you seem to be finding positives where there a none. Line out was good, scrum was ok. Game plan none existent, confidence non existent, kicking strategy non existent, intensity non existent.

Yeah they know their roles within the All Blacks team, and that is the issue Hook. If they played like they do for NZ, I reckon a lot more tries may have leaked in. Kaino makes a fair few tackles, but he does plenty more than that. Our centres needed babysitting, and that is what our backrow was assigned to do. Now, if SOB can play the game he plays for Leinster, Ferris the game he plays for Ulster, and Heaslip the game he always plays, then I feel our backrow would work fine. But we can't play like that with our current tactics.

Without wanting to start a new thread is there anyone here who thinks Kidney can stay on past the end of the championship if we lose on Saturday?

Complaining about Ireland is always on topic with us friend! However I think Kidney should go even if we win every other match (unless his tactics change dramatically). We won't win against France however.

No. I think we need a new approach. for him to stay we need to win all our remaining games and show some evidence of a style or plan to our attacking play.

Standulstermen wrote:Rodders you seem to be finding positives where there a none. Line out was good, scrum was ok. Game plan none existent, confidence non existent, kicking strategy non existent, intensity non existent.

There were plenty of positives Stand. Look at the stats, it was an incredibly even contest. The big difference was the posession and territory advantage Wales had and a lot of that is down to their superior 3/4 line and their ability to get over the gainline compared to us.

We dominated the lineout and breakdown and did really well in the restarts. I simply don't accept that we played that poorly. It was one of our better performances in recent times.

I have never been the type of supporter who has demanded the head of the coach- I didn't until the very end with O'Sullivan, but I am there with Kidney now. I also think the coaches have a lot of the blame to take alongside him. Gaffney is obviously gone now, but our back play is markedly worse than when Kidney took over. Our scrum is much more solid, but at what cost to loose play when we pick Ross? Who is going to take over from Kidney for that matter. I feel depressed today about the Welsh match and it didn't snow on the Glenshane Pass and I had to come into work. It's a bad day all round.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Without wanting to start a new thread is there anyone here who thinks Kidney can stay on past the end of the championship if we lose on Saturday?

It depends on the manner of the defeat. If we lose to England as well then he has to go.

Yesterday is a bitter pill but it is not the end of the world. I believe we can win our remaining games and then we can reassess after the competition.

Standulstermen wrote:No. I think we need a new approach. for him to stay we need to win all our remaining games and show some evidence of a style or plan to our attacking play.

I almost agree with you but he could lose the French game, couldn't he? It's not like it is a guaranteed walk in the park every second year we go over there.

Kidney's tactics for Ireland are to 'Munster the opposition to death - slowing ball down, lying ontop of the ruck - might work against England who don't have the best rucking skills at the moment.

A little more Leisnter, a little less Munster

I am going to be honest, I hope we don't win against France. Because if we have another tight exchanges, winning by one drop goal game, with my heart rate racing and my friends/family all on the floor because i've been swinging all around me with frustration, and Kidney stays, I will literally give up on Ireland.

I would not have been happy with our performance had we won yesterday.

My god get a grip of yoursleves lads, this is embarressing. All this wailing and whinning and knashing of teeth is disrespectful to an excellent welsh side, and our coaching set up.

We could and should have won the game, against a great team, that means we must be damn close to being at least a very good side. We lost, we arent perfect, so yes lets debate how we can get better. But this is a forum of such angst doom and gloom its rediculous.

Mcfadden isnt useless at defense because he missed 1 tackle. Our backrow isnt wrong because we didnt win etc etc If we were as bad as you all suggesting we would have been hammered by Italy, we werent we were just, juuust beaten by Wales.

Come on, take a deep breath, I accept we need to evolve, I accept we need to improve some parts of the game but stop getting so damn carried away, too many good rugby folk on here for this bilge.

logie28 wrote:My god get a grip of yoursleves lads, this is embarressing. All this wailing and whinning and knashing of teeth is disrespectful to an excellent welsh side, and our coaching set up.

We could and should have won the game, against a great team, that means we must be damn close to being at least a very good side. We lost, we arent perfect, so yes lets debate how we can get better. But this is a forum of such angst doom and gloom its rediculous.

Mcfadden isnt useless at defense because he missed 1 tackle. Our backrow isnt wrong because we didnt win etc etc If we were as bad as you all suggesting we would have been hammered by Italy, we werent we were just, juuust beaten by Wales.

Come on, take a deep breath, I accept we need to evolve, I accept we need to improve some parts of the game but stop getting so damn carried away, too many good rugby folk on here for this bilge.

+ 1

I accept we need to evolve, I accept we need to improve

But that has been said for three season's now. And we haven't evolved or improved. We've gotten worse. 1st in 2009, 2nd in 2010, 3rd in 2011, failure at the RWC, and now it looks like 3rd is the best we can achieve in 2012, maybe 4th depending on how New England do. We're going backwards under Kidney, and no other team is going to wait around for us to catch up. Maybe that's why people want regime change?

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:No. I think we need a new approach. for him to stay we need to win all our remaining games and show some evidence of a style or plan to our attacking play.

I almost agree with you but he could lose the French game, couldn't he? It's not like it is a guaranteed walk in the park every second year we go over there.

From the point of view that the public believe we have no chance over there then fair enough but if we lose to france we will (hopefully) pick up wins against Italy and Scotland and even where we to win in twickenham what progress is that from 12 months ago?

Rodders

Whilst I don't think the sob thing is the be all and end all I genuinely don't think you can say we dominated the breakdown.

Sorry logie but how you see any positives there I don't know. We conceded 3 try's AT HOME and let Wales waltz up the park to get the decisive penalty. The provinces are continually beating the regions at a lower level and I don't see how Isa nacewa is solely responsible for that in Leinsters case. We are under performing massively and to suggest anything else is putting your head in the sand. In the last year we have lost to France 3 times, Wales 3 times, England once and Scotland. Now I know some of those were warm ups but we have now lost our last 3 home internationals. In no way is that acceptable and more worryingly you could argue it is starting to become a trend.

logie28 wrote:My god get a grip of yoursleves lads, this is embarressing. All this wailing and whinning and knashing of teeth is disrespectful to an excellent welsh side, and our coaching set up.

We could and should have won the game, against a great team, that means we must be damn close to being at least a very good side. We lost, we arent perfect, so yes lets debate how we can get better. But this is a forum of such angst doom and gloom its rediculous.

Mcfadden isnt useless at defense because he missed 1 tackle. Our backrow isnt wrong because we didnt win etc etc If we were as bad as you all suggesting we would have been hammered by Italy, we werent we were just, juuust beaten by Wales.

Come on, take a deep breath, I accept we need to evolve, I accept we need to improve some parts of the game but stop getting so damn carried away, too many good rugby folk on here for this bilge.

-1

Pretty sure McFadden missed many more tackles than 1. We are debating how we can get better. The coaching and tactics is all wrong. Take out Kidney, get a decent coach. You tell us to debate how we can get better and that is exactly what we are doing. You are doing the most whining with that post.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

I accept we need to evolve, I accept we need to improve

But that has been said for three season's now. And we haven't evolved or improved. We've gotten worse. 1st in 2009, 2nd in 2010, 3rd in 2011, failure at the RWC, and now it looks like 3rd is the best we can achieve in 2012, maybe 4th depending on how New England do. We're going backwards under Kidney, and no other team is going to wait around for us to catch up. Maybe that's why people want regime change?

That I don't accept. On this Weekends evidence Wales are the strongest team in the tournament and we lost by 2...yes TWO points.

I accept that its is desperately disappointing but there is no reason to believe we can't win the next 4 games.

Yesterdays performance was far better than our 1st 4 games last season and better than our performance against Wales in NZ.

We need to improve but not by as much as people are making out.

And that is the exact sort of attitude that means we can't get any further than we are. We are aiming for wins, not excuses and holding hands in agreement that we are fine as we are. We play rubbish rugby and we still nearly beat Wales. That to me should be very frustrating to any irishman. Why would we want to settle for that? Doesn't that show how good we could be if we play some GOOD rugby? I fail to see how anyone could settle for mediocrity.

I agree that we need a new coach mainly because the amount of wailing and gnashing of teeth on this site would give anyone a headache...

Be careful lads you might get what you wish for (but not until 2013 which is when Kidneys contract is up)...

When we get the foreigner who will allegedly lead us to the land of milk and honey in rugby terms how long before the calls for a change with them....

France are the strongest in the competition.

Wales are not as good as everyone thinks.. they have some very big backs which we simply couldn't deal with. However I doubt every nation is going to make the same mistake as us. South Africa could deal with it, France could deal with it, Australia could deal with it. Why can't we? So far we are the only team Wales have beaten of note, and atm that isn't such a great achievement. Our defence in midfield was like paper.

As much as Wales were better than us, France put 30 points on an improving Italy in 2nd gear. Their defence was quite brilliant too. Can't look past France at the minute although if wales can keep the momentum then Cardiff will be a very tricky place to go for them.

Rory if you think I am just accepting the defeat you are wrong but you can't change the past, we have to look forward to next week and win to get our competition back on track.

France did not look unbeatable against Italy by any stretch.

I think Wales will win the 6N and people aren't giving them the credit they deserve.

They didn't look unbeatable rodders of course not. But when they looked interested they scored try's. I can't believe how you thought Ireland looked like the 2nd best team in the tournament yesterday. It was the worst performance I can recall since the last game at Croke park

Standulstermen wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:No. I think we need a new approach. for him to stay we need to win all our remaining games and show some evidence of a style or plan to our attacking play.

I almost agree with you but he could lose the French game, couldn't he? It's not like it is a guaranteed walk in the park every second year we go over there.

From the point of view that the public believe we have no chance over there then fair enough but if we lose to france we will (hopefully) pick up wins against Italy and Scotland and even where we to win in twickenham what progress is that from 12 months ago?

Rodders

Whilst I don't think the sob thing is the be all and end all I genuinely don't think you can say we dominated the breakdown.

Sorry logie but how you see any positives there I don't know. We conceded 3 try's AT HOME and let Wales waltz up the park to get the decisive penalty. The provinces are continually beating the regions at a lower level and I don't see how Isa nacewa is solely responsible for that in Leinsters case. We are under performing massively and to suggest anything else is putting your head in the sand. In the last year we have lost to France 3 times, Wales 3 times, England once and Scotland. Now I know some of those were warm ups but we have now lost our last 3 home internationals. In no way is that acceptable and more worryingly you could argue it is starting to become a trend.

Leinster have not been tested this year so far. And Isa was brilliant last year, but so was Nathan Hines - particularly at hitting rucks and the breakdown.

Maybe Wales have Ireland's number now - in the same way that Ireland has Englands and England has France's.

roddersm wrote:Rory if you think I am just accepting the defeat you are wrong but you can't change the past, we have to look forward to next week and win to get our competition back on track.

France did not look unbeatable against Italy by any stretch.

I think Wales will win the 6N and people aren't giving them the credit they deserve.

I was referring to Logie's post about people whinging about the defeat or whatever. Wales are getting more than the credit they deserve, they use their big runners to create momentum and produce quick ball, something Ireland are unable to do. Australia, South Africa and France have all been able to deal with it so far, and tbh it is a pretty simple game-plan. Also Italy are not getting the credit they deserve against France I feel.

Plus France scored everytime they actually played some rugby.