Ireland post mortem

First topic message reminder :

Just back from the game.

Firstly - barnes messed up big time for the last penalty. Has to be lifting involved in a tip tackle which there wasn't.

Secondly- Wales probably had a few calls go against them so overall I feel things evened themselves out.

Thirdly- I though Wales were much the better team and were value for a 5-10 point win in my book.

None of which were what I wanted to talk through. I am posting in a reactionary mood so forgive me if I seem too emotional but to me I think the time has come for a change. We have been described as a team in a 'steady transition', not being too wayward with caps and building the next side gradually. Is there a point to building the next side gradually if the present side isn't doing the business though?

I thought today that the difference in Wales approach was stark in the 2nd half. Roberts had got no joy throughout so they switched the attack to north with devastating effect. I have seen no semblance of game plan, no hint of playing what's in front of you or anything to suggest Ireland have remotely half the nous that Wales have.

The players seem inhibited and for me only rob Kearney comes out of the game with any sense of credit (maybe Rory best too). To my mind we are relying on brute force and ignorance and when that doesn't work we have no plan B. I can't recall seeing tommy Bowe having a poorer game. I think it is telling that the two progressive subs weren't used ( as far as I could see). I think the question needs asked that what can Ton McGahan, Joe Schmidt and Brian McLaughlin get out of these guys at provincial level that we aren't seeing at international level.

for me a telling situation was ferris taking a poor up and under in the 2nd half. For ulster he would build up a head of steam and plough into/through the first defender. Today he passed. There is something seriously wrong in the international set up IMO.

For my welsh counterparts again this is more an Irish bitching session and I don't wish to detract from what was a deserved victory. Best of luck and here's to a GS cider against France. To my Irish friends I apologise if I am being overly harsh or emotional but that result has ruined my week and I am gutted and depressed.

Have you actually watched Leinster this year though? He has come leaps and bounds in the breakdown. He wears the 7 shirt. What is this nonsense that he isn't a 7 about? How is Henry/POM any more a 7, specifically POM who gives away plenty of penalties at the breakdown, yet people think he would do a better job?

Right, when Wallace returns and if Kidney is still there, throw him in and see what gets solved. I assure you now that it will be nothing and he will be performing the exact same role as SOB. And since when has Wallace been this "natural" 7 anyway??

I always thought Wallace was more of a natural 7 than SOB.

What works at club level doesn't work at International level. Without a genuine 7 you get exposed.

SOB has been chewed up and spat out 3 times by the Welsh at 7 by both Warburton and Tipuri - how much more evidence do you want.

The french will do the same, probably Scotland as well.

Henry is far more like a 7 than SOB. He has adapted his game and is 1/2 there, SOB is nowhere near there.

SOB and Wallace are of the same style that much at least should be agreed upon.

I think what else should be agreed upon is that the coaches tactics (and coaching) are what is making us underperform to such a drastic degree.

As much as i really rate Davie Wallace, his time is over i am afraid. Time to look at the younger boys and Ireland have enough there.

I thought that SOB had a pretty good game yesterday, he was tackling everthing that moved in his vacinity. I wanted to see POM come on at half time for Heaslip who i thought wasnt having a good game.

To me, the biggest issue was the lack of direction and game plan, Ireland looked clueless at times. Kidney has to have a look at himself for that. I have been one of his biggest defenders but even i am starting to doubt him.

Maybe he is, I can agree with that, and he is one of my favourite players. But SOB has only made the switch since the beginning of the season and is developing well there. Wallace is now a proper veteran who has played the best 7s in the world. SOB has been thrown in with the best and he has been expected to perform. This will take time, but it would take a lot less time if he isn't being asked to cover the centres the entire game. People complain about him yet without him I feel many more tries may have been leaked by Wales.

jeebus the old natural 7 chestnut!

The turnovers between the two team were even and arguably Ireland were superior on the deck.

Numerous times SOB and Best had got bridged over the ball and had exacted legitimate turnovers but the ref called for them to release. Kidney was furious about it after.

SOB did a fantastic job at slowing down the Welsh ball all day better than any other Irish 7 could do.

The difference between the two sides was the size and strike threat of the Welsh backs and our failure to take points on the few occaisions we were in the Welsh half.

geoff998rugby wrote:What works at club level doesn't work at International level. Without a genuine 7 you get exposed.

SOB has been chewed up and spat out 3 times by the Welsh at 7 by both Warburton and Tipuri - how much more evidence do you want.

The french will do the same, probably Scotland as well.

Henry is far more like a 7 than SOB. He has adapted his game and is 1/2 there, SOB is nowhere near there.

So many contradictions there Geoff. What works at club level - yes so that is where Henry falls under. SOB at club level has also been doing brilliantly at the breakdown. I bet you if he played the Cardiff Blues Warburton would be challenged much more. Why? Because SOB can play the game he is suited to playing. Tipuric I thought caused a huge difference coming on, at that point SOB I think was literally standing with the centres. Warburton and co in the first half were not dominating the breakdown at all. We were pretty rubbish at quick ball, but that isn't the 7's duty. The whole pack must recycle the ball for the scrum half. It is a fairytale that a 7 must be in every ruck to do this.

The french will do the same? With no natural openside? Where is the logic in that? The french secure quick ball through their very mobile pack. No 7 needed. They beat the NZ backrow (and not for the first time either) without one. This nonsense of natural 7s is seriously driving me nuts, it is not the issue at all and people are making such a big deal over it.

EDIT: And I hate the fact I had to say "no 7 needed" as it is the number of the shirt and is obviously needed. "So and so isn't a 7" really does my head in. You would think we were playing props there.

I desperately want a backrow of Ferris, O'Brien and Heaslip to be successful. But it isn't and it won't. They have continued to be exposed. Simply put we need a pack that wins us enough of our own ball for us to score. Remember when we actually won decent ball and played a quick expansive game with offloading in the tackle we scored tries. For all the talk of how poor we were and how amazing Wales were (which they weren't), we almost won. That backrow does not do enough to win ball at the breakdown except on two occasions and that was where we reverted to good old fashioned amateur era blood and thunder forward play. Apart from those two games when has O'Brien played as he does in a blue shirt? I can't remember one game where he was consistently good. It is not only a reflection that he has a long way to go in the international game because of his relative lack of experience as yet, and the tactics of the team. His strengths are not being exploited as this backrow stands, and the number on the shirt is irrelevant. Now, none of the players are up to the Tom Croft school of show pony backrow play, but they do not do the dirty work anywhere near enough. One has to go and be replaced with someone who will. Whether O'Mahony or Henry is irrelevant to me, as long as they get stuck in and do the work.

Rodders so our backrow did well, elsewhere you have said our centres did well but we were still, comfortably, second best - where do you think we lost the game then ?

We have no natural 7 and I agree Wallace's time is up. However when don't have a natural 7 you play the player who is closet to the ideal.

I simply do not accept that is SOB - if it is Ireland are screwed for the forseeable future.
As Wales have shown we can be very easily sussed out.

We havent had a natural 7 since Keith Gleeson. Jennings has been tried, but even I have to admit - did not step up. Great club/HC 7, but not for Ireland.

Ireland dont do 7's. EOS bypassed it with Wallace (being World Class helps) and Kidney is of the same ilk. I am fully behind POM or Henry - displacing either of the 3 in situ. Try a different formation.

Play Ferris, POM and Heaslip and bench SOB. He'd make a phenomenal impact sub. Or do the same with Ferris. Cant move Heaslip from 8. We have no one in his class, to replace him with there. Not yet anyway

Phhok, Im getting invloved again. I blame you RORY!

I'll let ye lot pick the team. Im out Ted.

Nobody will be able to do the hard work in the backrow if the centres are consistently knocked back. FACT. We were consistently on the back foot and our flankers had to cover our asses by tackling the big runners. How have Heaslip, SOB and Ferris been exposed anyway? Twice is it they have actually played together now? SOB made the most tackles on the field, Heaslip was the best back row on the pitch bar Jones (who isn't even part of this oh so highly rated Welsh back row) and Faletau was fairly anonymous.

Gibson wrote:We havent had a natural 7 since Keith Gleeson. Jennings has been tried, but even I have to admit - did not step up. Great club/HC 7, but not for Ireland.

Ireland dont do 7's. EOS bypassed it with Wallace (being World Class helps) and Kidney is of the same ilk. I am fully behind POM or Henry - displacing either of the 3 in situ. Try a different formation.

Play Ferris, POM and Heaslip and bench SOB. He'd make a phenomenal impact sub. Or do the same with Ferris. Cant move Heaslip from 8. We have no one in his class, to replace him with there. Not yet anyway

Phhok, Im getting invloved again. I blame you RORY!

I'll let ye lot pick the team. Im out Ted.

I do apologise Gibson, but I do like hearing what you have to say also, so maybe I am doing it on purpose

However you know my view on the matter, and I don't think POM/Henry will make the slightest difference, nor would it if we picked McCaw, Pocock, Brussouw etc etc. That isn't the issue. If it does end up being an issue I will eat my words. But it really isn't. The coaching is the issue, our constant giving away possession, primitive style of "killing" the opposition as Kidney said after the game and our non-existent attack. Not to mention our selection of centres (D'Arcy) who have not been able to defend the big centres for about 2 years now. There was no surprise when he and McFadden got steamrolled.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Nobody will be able to do the hard work in the backrow if the centres are consistently knocked back. FACT. We were consistently on the back foot and our flankers had to cover our asses by tackling the big runners. How have Heaslip, SOB and Ferris been exposed anyway? Twice is it they have actually played together now? SOB made the most tackles on the field, Heaslip was the best back row on the pitch bar Jones (who isn't even part of this oh so highly rated Welsh back row) and Faletau was fairly anonymous.

But their main job is to secure our own ball. They consistently don't do it. That has absolutely nothing to do with our centres, though they certainly did not help.

clivemcl wrote:

Sin é wrote:Wallace's defence isn't good enough inside Earls, brave and all as he is.

It seemed decent enough inside Ian Whitten against Rougerie and Fofana

Out of the 9 tackles he made, Wallace missed 4 of them. (5/4)

Compare him to D'Arcy yesterday: made 17, missed 2. (15/2).

McFadden made 14, missed 2 (12/2).

geoff998rugby wrote:Rodders so our backrow did well, elsewhere you have said our centres did well but we were still, comfortably, second best - where do you think we lost the game then ?

Wales had superior power and strike threat in attack and were able to dominate territory and posession. That was the main difference.

Despite that we still could have won. Why? Because of phenomenal defence and because we were exceptionally effective at slowing the Welsh down and truning them over on the deck.

We dominated the breakdown so I do not accept that our back row was out played.

The turning points were: Bowe's fumble into touch which conceded the lineout, Sexton going for the posts within his half, O'Gara poor restart for the final play and some poor descisions by the ref.

Our lineout was superb and our defence was excellent. We won nearly every restart and showed some excellent handling.

We lacked strike threat in the 3/4s as we knew we would but it was not a poor performance. Wales were simply better.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Nobody will be able to do the hard work in the backrow if the centres are consistently knocked back. FACT. We were consistently on the back foot and our flankers had to cover our asses by tackling the big runners. How have Heaslip, SOB and Ferris been exposed anyway? Twice is it they have actually played together now? SOB made the most tackles on the field, Heaslip was the best back row on the pitch bar Jones (who isn't even part of this oh so highly rated Welsh back row) and Faletau was fairly anonymous.

But their main job is to secure our own ball. They consistently don't do it. That has absolutely nothing to do with our centres, though they certainly did not help.

No, that is such a naive way of looking at things, that a 7 should be the one to secure ball. Off the set-piece, the first phase, yes, they are the first ones there to secure or contest the ball (SOB did this). From that point on we gave away possession on the 2nd or 3rd or 4th phase. The 7 whoever he is can hardly be expected to secure every single breakdown, and if you think the centres/backs have no part to play in securing ball, I really don't know what to say.

Sin é wrote:

clivemcl wrote:

Sin é wrote:Wallace's defence isn't good enough inside Earls, brave and all as he is.

It seemed decent enough inside Ian Whitten against Rougerie and Fofana

Out of the 9 tackles he made, Wallace missed 4 of them. (5/4)

Compare him to D'Arcy yesterday: made 17, missed 2. (15/2).

McFadden made 14, missed 2 (12/2).

I don't know about the Wallace stats as I can't remember, but those stats for D'Arcy and McFadden don't look right at all.

I really want to blame Leinster for the loss yesterday just to wind Gibbo up

Its all Sextons fault, hasnt got skill required to represent Ireland.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Murray's box kicking is still better than TOL or Reddans. Although I don't understand why the box kick is used so much in the first place.

There's the question - one player gets criticised; another player comes in and it's the same 'tactic' he uses. O'Gara, blamed for kicking away possession when people liked to criticise him rather than the 'new' encumbant. But the new encumbant shows up - fresh faced and more of a running, attacking flyhalf - and he's kicking away possession.

So player or coach - player or coach. I'm juggling them and wondering which I blame for the consistent problems

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Nobody will be able to do the hard work in the backrow if the centres are consistently knocked back. FACT. We were consistently on the back foot and our flankers had to cover our asses by tackling the big runners. How have Heaslip, SOB and Ferris been exposed anyway? Twice is it they have actually played together now? SOB made the most tackles on the field, Heaslip was the best back row on the pitch bar Jones (who isn't even part of this oh so highly rated Welsh back row) and Faletau was fairly anonymous.

But their main job is to secure our own ball. They consistently don't do it. That has absolutely nothing to do with our centres, though they certainly did not help.

No, that is such a naive way of looking at things, that a 7 should be the one to secure ball. Off the set-piece, the first phase, yes, they are the first ones there to secure or contest the ball (SOB did this). From that point on we gave away possession on the 2nd or 3rd or 4th phase. The 7 whoever he is can hardly be expected to secure every single breakdown, and if you think the centres/backs have no part to play in securing ball, I really don't know what to say.

I am criticising the backrow as a unit, not an individual. I don't think O'Brien, Ferris or Heaslip do enough work at the breakdown whether it be 1st, 2nd or third phase play. I won't go any further as that is where our attacking play stops. O'Brien did more than his partners yesterday, but not enough. I would advocate dropping any one of them and trying someone else. We need a unit that works well together and that is not always the best three individuals. I don't see than as being any more naive that thinking a problem doesn't exist when we are being constantly beaten by other packs in first phase possession.

Rodders our defense was shoite!!!! We conceeded 3 tries and let Wales fight their way the length of the pitch in the final 2 minutes to get the decisive score!!!

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yeah Earls is the best defender in the world and everyone else is rubbish at it. Wallace never gives away a penalty and everyone else does. Gotcha.

I never claimed Earls is the best defender in the world and everyone else is rubbish at it. I just posted above that Luke Fitz is a very good defender. What I would say about Earls is that his defence isn't as bad a some would make out.

And I stand over D Wallace's discipline. Its excellent - way better than any other backrower around - 3 YCs in 200 games for Munster - seems to be able to not do something if he knows the ref doesn't like it.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
I am criticising the backrow as a unit, not an individual. I don't think O'Brien, Ferris or Heaslip do enough work at the breakdown whether it be 1st, 2nd or third phase play. I won't go any further as that is where our attacking play stops. O'Brien did more than his partners yesterday, but not enough. I would advocate dropping any one of them and trying someone else. We need a unit that works well together and that is not always the best three individuals. I don't see that as being any more naive that thinking a problem doesn't exist when we are being constantly beaten by other packs in first phase possession.

What are you talking about though? It isn't on the first phase

SOB did more at the breakdown PLUS making the most tackles, which he shouldn't have had to do anyway. Once again you seem to think it is solely the back rows job to secure ball. That is such a myth. They are a big factor yes, but the pack and whoever else is there MUST secure their own ball. We were weak at that in general, the times SOB was there we did secure our own ball because he knocked whoever it was off it. Every time Warburton or Tipuric made a turnover I think everyone has been shouting "SOB! GUILTY!" when it is hardly his fault the rest of the team can't secure the ball! Whether you are the scrum-half, out-half, centre, prop, hooker, second row. If you are there and the ball is being contested it is your job to secure it.

It only wouldve taken about 4 stone between the two centers to make a 2 point difference in this game, and a better rub of teh refereeing decisions.

A dissapointing loss for Ireland but not one that reequires any knee jerk changes. The center problem isnt one that can be easily solved when youre already down a couple of guys.

I find it odd just how many people are turning on SOB. England would kill for a guy like him at the moment.

WillyGilly wrote:Rodders our defense was shoite!!!! We conceeded 3 tries and let Wales fight their way the length of the pitch in the final 2 minutes to get the decisive score!!!

That falls down to the centres, and are you really surprised that their defence was crap?

Agreed Willy our defence was poor.
We did not dominate the breakdown
Wales dominated possession because we gave it to them

I really think I was watching a different game from you and Rory

WillyGilly wrote:Rodders our defense was shoite!!!! We conceeded 3 tries and let Wales fight their way the length of the pitch in the final 2 minutes to get the decisive score!!!

Wales just have bigger, better ball carriers Willy. It is a testiment to our defence that we didn't concede 5 or 6 tries with the amount of posession they had.

We just don't have ball carrying midfield targets of that size and quality so they're no point blaming kidney about it.

D'arcy and McFadden did much better than I expected. Bowe was the only player who was really poor. It was clear before the game that we were over matched in the 3/4s and would struggle.

I'd like to see the same team against France and I believe we will beat them.

Here’s why we lost.

1) With O’Driscoll out we don’t get quick ball at the ruck
2) We didn’t commit enough players to the breakdown to allow for the loss of O’Driscoll
3) When we did get ruck ball it was slow
4) With our midfield we couldn’t get any forward momentum without the quick ball
5) Because of this we kicked too often
6) We then stood off the tackles

I know Ireland and Leinster are a different kettle of fish but Leinster are missing O’Driscoll as well, so how are we able to compete at the breakdown, get quick ball off our own ruck, get turnover ball, attack and counter attack, create mismatches etc?

I just don’t understand it.

Sin é wrote:

clivemcl wrote:

Sin é wrote:Wallace's defence isn't good enough inside Earls, brave and all as he is.

It seemed decent enough inside Ian Whitten against Rougerie and Fofana

Out of the 9 tackles he made, Wallace missed 4 of them. (5/4)

Compare him to D'Arcy yesterday: made 17, missed 2. (15/2).

McFadden made 14, missed 2 (12/2).

Whoever constructed those stats needs to go back to school - they are total garbage.

geoff998rugby wrote:Agreed Willy our defence was poor.
We did not dominate the breakdown
Wales dominated possession because we gave it to them

I really think I was watching a different game from you and Rory

Yeah I think you were too. I would watch it again and focus on SOB (which I did, to see if these annoying claims about a natural 7 are true) and see how much work he got through. At times he was silly, and he will need to work on that, but why he is the scapegoat is beyond me. Ferris was the worst of the backrow the other day, despite probably being the best in general, which once again comes down to how our back row were being asked to play. Blaming SOB for the lack of security is just silly.

The reason we were struggling in the centre was because of our drift defence.

As said the small Ulster midfield coped against the Clermont players because they employed the right tactics against bigger men.

Ireland played to Wales strength by poor tactics

Mickado wrote:Here’s why we lost.

1) With O’Driscoll out we don’t get quick ball at the ruck
2) We didn’t commit enough players to the breakdown to allow for the loss of O’Driscoll
3) When we did get ruck ball it was slow
4) With our midfield we couldn’t get any forward momentum without the quick ball
5) Because of this we kicked too often
6) We then stood off the tackles

I know Ireland and Leinster are a different kettle of fish but Leinster are missing O’Driscoll as well, so how are we able to compete at the breakdown, get quick ball off our own ruck, get turnover ball, attack and counter attack, create mismatches etc?

I just don’t understand it.

And with SOB at 7 might I add. I think Gibson made a very good point the other day when he said Leinster and France play a very similar game. Maybe we should actually look at how France play, with a very mobile pack and the most dangerous backs in world rugby.

WillyGilly wrote:Rodders our defense was shoite!!!! We conceeded 3 tries and let Wales fight their way the length of the pitch in the final 2 minutes to get the decisive score!!!

I think we had to defend more than we should have had to. That comes from loose kicking, not kicking to touch. Wales made the yards because the Ireland was standing off from the tackles. I can understand D'Arcy & McFadden going backwards, but I can understand Ireland's backrow being sent backwards.

The fact that D'Arcy, McFadden or Trimble don't have a kicking game (for dinky kicks to turn the opposition) was a big negative as well. BOD, Earls & Luke pose a threat this way.

Not scapgoating SOB at all - Ferris or Heaslip would have not delivered at 7 either. I have no doubt he got through a lot of work but that is not the key point

SOB is an excellent 6 and an excellent 8 but he is being shoehorned into 7.

Mickado wrote:
1) With O’Driscoll out we don’t get quick ball at the ruck
2) We didn’t commit enough players to the breakdown to allow for the loss of O’Driscoll
3) When we did get ruck ball it was slow
4) With our midfield we couldn’t get any forward momentum without the quick ball
5) Because of this we kicked too often
6) We then stood off the tackles

1) Disagree. We got quick ball.
2) Disagree. We commiited too many to the breakdown thats why we were stretched.
3) see point one.
4) Our midfield has no power and pace thats why we couldn't get go forward ball. The Welsh defence is one of the strongest around.
5) Agree.
6) Agree.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Mickado wrote:Here’s why we lost.

1) With O’Driscoll out we don’t get quick ball at the ruck
2) We didn’t commit enough players to the breakdown to allow for the loss of O’Driscoll
3) When we did get ruck ball it was slow
4) With our midfield we couldn’t get any forward momentum without the quick ball
5) Because of this we kicked too often
6) We then stood off the tackles

I know Ireland and Leinster are a different kettle of fish but Leinster are missing O’Driscoll as well, so how are we able to compete at the breakdown, get quick ball off our own ruck, get turnover ball, attack and counter attack, create mismatches etc?

I just don’t understand it.

And with SOB at 7 might I add. I think Gibson made a very good point the other day when he said Leinster and France play a very similar game. Maybe we should actually look at how France play, with a very mobile pack and the most dangerous backs in world rugby.

Exactly, add in Ferris who's more than capable of clearing out a ruck and we should be able to get good clean, quick ball.

Also Geoff I actually agree with you on the points you listed, just not the fact you think it comes down to who our 7 is, nor your criticism of SOB. We dominated the breakdown in the first half I thought, and slowed Wales down greatly. It was in the second half that Wales started to gain momentum and we just couldn't compete.

Mickado wrote:Here’s why we lost.

1) With O’Driscoll out we don’t get quick ball at the ruck
2) We didn’t commit enough players to the breakdown to allow for the loss of O’Driscoll
3) When we did get ruck ball it was slow
4) With our midfield we couldn’t get any forward momentum without the quick ball
5) Because of this we kicked too often
6) We then stood off the tackles

I know Ireland and Leinster are a different kettle of fish but Leinster are missing O’Driscoll as well, so how are we able to compete at the breakdown, get quick ball off our own ruck, get turnover ball, attack and counter attack, create mismatches etc?

I just don’t understand it.

Agree Mick. Ireland have a big problem in their centers. Welcome to England for the last 9 years.

Wales seem to have amassed a collection of gentic freaks across their backline, the mismatch in size was noticebale. I can undertand the frustration about kicking the ball away, but whats the point in some of these Irish backs running headlong into their opposite number knowing full wele they will get shamed back? Its very hard to make spoace in Modern union without going through a couple of phases, if Irleand havent got the players to draw defenders and win contact they have a problem ( although SOB is a mosnter for this), equally with the Welsh backs able to get change against the Irish on a regular basis it makes their forwards job in securing quick ball a lot easier as well as breaking up the defensive line.


Ireland were always in this game though. The wasy some people are talking it was a major defeat. Aside form teh lineout Wales very pretty strong all round, they played at the upper end of their game yet still relied partly on a couple of contentious reffing decisions to get on the right side of a very tight game.

geoff998rugby wrote:Not scapgoating SOB at all - Ferris or Heaslip would have not delivered at 7 either. I have no doubt he got through a lot of work but that is not the key point

SOB is an excellent 6 and an excellent 8 but he is being shoehorned into 7.

And doing a great job there for Leinster Geoff. Saved us numerous times in the game yesterday. He wasn't spectacular but defensively he was very solid. Made many critical tackles. Slowed the ball down plenty, and made some turnovers. Gave away a penalty, maybe two, which he shouldn't have, but apart from that he did all he could. Also the way the breakdown was being reffed, it was pretty much 50/50 who got away with what.

We did slow down some of their possession in the first half but we did not secure quick possession for ourselves.

It works at Leinster for two reasons:

Leisnter play at a much higher tempo than Ireland and are able to maintain momentum

The opposition is not as good

Well a lot of the opposition that Leinster play against does have these "natural" 7s who SOB does brilliantly against. So that is more proof that the job at the breakdown does not solely lie with whoever is at 7 (which it doesn't). We didn't secure possession because players were not committing themselves. SOB was one of the few who was. The job of securing the ball lies with everyone, 1-15. Off the set-piece it is SOB's job, and he does this brilliantly.

Also your point about Leinster and their game style maybe goes to show that we should be aiming to play like them? Or maybe we could look at it as if we want to play this type of defensive, killing the ball game, we should be looking at a natural 7? That isn't the game I want Ireland to play however.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Agreed Willy our defence was poor.
We did not dominate the breakdown
Wales dominated possession because we gave it to them

I really think I was watching a different game from you and Rory

Yeah I think you were too. I would watch it again and focus on SOB (which I did, to see if these annoying claims about a natural 7 are true) and see how much work he got through. At times he was silly, and he will need to work on that, but why he is the scapegoat is beyond me. Ferris was the worst of the backrow the other day, despite probably being the best in general, which once again comes down to how our back row were being asked to play. Blaming SOB for the lack of security is just silly.

Not everyone believes it is SOB's fault and you are choosing to see any criticism in that light. SOB is not a 'natural' 7. You know that and have said that much. Wallace is not a natural 7 either. If he was fully fit and you offered me the choice I would choose Wallace every single day of the week and twice on a Sunday. SOB worked very hard on Sunday, he was just largely ineffective. O'Brien is having the strengths of his game sacrificed to do a job he just isn't good enough to do. He would be like asking Warburton to be as good a ball carrier as O'Brien. It's lunacy. Pick O'Brien and let him off the leash at 6 or 8. Have someone in there to do the dirty work. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. You seem to believe that if it's broke, defend it and don't fix it. I think bringing in Ryan would help first phase possession but he's likely to be banned I would say. Mike Ross once again demonstrated why Kidney was reticient to pick him in the first place because he adds zero around the pitch. We need to get a more dynamic replacement in as soon as they are up to the level of being a passable scrummager. That would all help secure possession as well as a shift in the backrow. I agree with you that there is no silver bullet here. I just don't believe in maintaining a system that continues to fail.
SOB wasn't helped by playing with Heaslip and Ferris who did not help him enough at the breakdown, not did he help them when needed because they didn't work as a unit. The unit as a whole needs attention. I'm a Ulster fan, ok. If the team comes out next week and he is on the bench and O'Mahony come in you know what I would say. Something along the lines of 'Thank feck.' (Then under my breath say I'd rather have Ferris than O'Brien) This isn't about SOB and you should stop inferring that from any criticism of the unit as a whole. A good argument could be made for any of the three of them being dropped and someone else brought in. Personally I think Heaslip should probably be dropped down and O'Brien play 8 as he has effectively for Leinster.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Agree Mick. Ireland have a big problem in their centers. Welcome to England for the last 9 years.

Wales seem to have amassed a collection of gentic freaks across their backline, the mismatch in size was noticebale. I can undertand the frustration about kicking the ball away, but whats the point in some of these Irish backs running headlong into their opposite number knowing full wele they will get shamed back? Its very hard to make spoace in Modern union without going through a couple of phases, if Irleand havent got the players to draw defenders and win contact they have a problem ( although SOB is a mosnter for this), equally with the Welsh backs able to get change against the Irish on a regular basis it makes their forwards job in securing quick ball a lot easier as well as breaking up the defensive line.


Ireland were always in this game though. The wasy some people are talking it was a major defeat. Aside form teh lineout Wales very pretty strong all round, they played at the upper end of their game yet still relied partly on a couple of contentious reffing decisions to get on the right side of a very tight game.

+ 1000. Thank you Peter for speaking some sense. People are really losing the plot here.

Rory see point 2 - The opposition isn't as good.

That is the nub.

As you go up the grades in rugby from schools, to youth, to AIB, Development, Province and then finally to International there are ways of playing that are effective at one level that dont work at the next.

Tactics need to adapt to accomodate the higher standard.
Leinster have not played anyone this year remotely as good as Wales and that is the difference.

geoff998rugby wrote:The reason we were struggling in the centre was because of our drift defence.

As said the small Ulster midfield coped against the Clermont players because they employed the right tactics against bigger men.

Ireland played to Wales strength by poor tactics

It could be also said that Clermont didn't use the right tactic against Ulster (they went wide too much of the time)? (mind you they still won )

SOB is not just a ball carrier and has added a lot more to his game this season. He has been playing at 7 effectively for Leinster, so why are you saying "oh he is a 6/8 that is where he is best for Leinster". He won player of the year last year at 6, 7 and 8, doing brilliantly in each of the positions. He IS really underrated at the breakdown. What was ineffective about what he did? The fact he wasn't able to teleport to each ruck that Tipuric got into and push him off the ball? That isn't down to SOB. He slowed down the ball, made turnovers. Makes more for Leinster, so I hope he can make more for Ireland in the future.

That is what I am arguing with you about, not your opinion on the back row as a unit. You said firstly that backs have zero part to play in securing ball which is completely ridiculous, and that SOB is ineffective as a breakdown player, which is also complete rubbish and if you have watched Leinster at all this season, you would not be saying these things. SOB has added more to his game this season and he needed to. His carrying is not as effective whether he is a 6, 7 or 8, and that is because ball carriers always get marked eventually. He is much more balanced now as a player.

Jeez, this feckin thread is like the Irish team... everyone defending their province first, thinking about Ireland second.

I dont have a problem with kicking the ball away but and it is a big but we should have been kicking to touch not down the throats of the Welsh back three so that they could get up a head of steam to run back at us.

That was madness - especially when Wales had a dodgy lineout.

Defensively you need to be in the face of bigger men.

I just feel we have learnt nothing from the WC.

geoff998rugby wrote:Rory see point 2 - The opposition isn't as good.

That is the nub.

As you go up the grades in rugby from schools, to youth, to AIB, Development, Province and then finally to International there are ways of playing that are effective at one level that dont work at the next.

Tactics need to adapt to accomodate the higher standard.
Leinster have not played anyone this year remotely as good as Wales and that is the difference.

So you think Ireland should be playing the current tactics that Kidney is wanting us to play? Because I think his tactics are complete garbage. We have some of the most dangerous players in the world and we restrict ourself to a defensive, territorial game. France get away with it at the highest level, as do NZ, Australia (who have a terrible pack) etc. Why can't we? Why can't we play like these teams (and Leinster) at the highest level, instead of the useless rubbish we are playing now?