Ireland post mortem

by Standulstermen Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:47 pm

First topic message reminder :

Just back from the game.

Firstly - barnes messed up big time for the last penalty. Has to be lifting involved in a tip tackle which there wasn't.

Secondly- Wales probably had a few calls go against them so overall I feel things evened themselves out.

Thirdly- I though Wales were much the better team and were value for a 5-10 point win in my book.

None of which were what I wanted to talk through. I am posting in a reactionary mood so forgive me if I seem too emotional but to me I think the time has come for a change. We have been described as a team in a 'steady transition', not being too wayward with caps and building the next side gradually. Is there a point to building the next side gradually if the present side isn't doing the business though?

I thought today that the difference in Wales approach was stark in the 2nd half. Roberts had got no joy throughout so they switched the attack to north with devastating effect. I have seen no semblance of game plan, no hint of playing what's in front of you or anything to suggest Ireland have remotely half the nous that Wales have.

The players seem inhibited and for me only rob Kearney comes out of the game with any sense of credit (maybe Rory best too). To my mind we are relying on brute force and ignorance and when that doesn't work we have no plan B. I can't recall seeing tommy Bowe having a poorer game. I think it is telling that the two progressive subs weren't used ( as far as I could see). I think the question needs asked that what can Ton McGahan, Joe Schmidt and Brian McLaughlin get out of these guys at provincial level that we aren't seeing at international level.

for me a telling situation was ferris taking a poor up and under in the 2nd half. For ulster he would build up a head of steam and plough into/through the first defender. Today he passed. There is something seriously wrong in the international set up IMO.

For my welsh counterparts again this is more an Irish bitching session and I don't wish to detract from what was a deserved victory. Best of luck and here's to a GS cider against France. To my Irish friends I apologise if I am being overly harsh or emotional but that result has ruined my week and I am gutted and depressed.

by WillyGilly Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:13 am

It doesn't actually contradict Barnes' decision though does it?

by MunsterMac Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:14 am

I'll address your final point and say we aren't discussing the last 10-15 years we're discussing Kidneys reign

With all due respect that maybe what you're discussing but I'm discussing the point which arose earlier in relation to why our provinces do well in the HC but Ireland don't do correspondingly as well at international level.

Irish teams doing well in the Heineken Cup is a new phenomenon,when we were consistent but just short of being a world class team we had one very top class province in Munster backed up by an average Leinster and a poor Ulster and Connacht.

Currently we are a worse international team with one top class province in Leinster and two very strong teams in Munster and Ulster with a poor Connacht providing a few squad players.Your argument doesn't stand up as we were very successful internationally when our player depth and talent were much poorer than they are currently.

I'm afraid you are deluding yourself if you think Ireland ever came close to being a World Class or even very successful team.

Ireland is now what is has been for the last 10 years: A country who will win all of the time against Fiji, Samoa, Italy, USA, Canada etc, a lot of the time against Argentina, Scotland and Wales, more than they should against England, on their day and on the odd occasion against SA and Australia and rarely or never against France and New Zealand.

by FitzStephen Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:18 am

WillyGilly wrote:It doesn't actually contradict Barnes' decision though does it?

On Sky it says "cleared of dangerous play" which would seem to contradict him yes.

by marty2086 Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:32 am

Sin é wrote:Great analysis by Alan Quinlan in today's Irish Times. In short, he thinks the players need to man-up.

I wouldn’t blame the Irish management for what happened. I’ve heard people say it’s down to a conservative management and all that kind of thing but that’s not what stood out against Wales. This defeat was down to the players. They needed to step up and take control, demand the ball and make plays that wouldn’t be expected of them. They just didn’t do it enough.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0208/1224311465459.html

It is a good piece maybe Kidney needs to drop a few players and pick a few work horses or players with strong characters in their place instead of players with the technical ability

by asoreleftshoulder Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:38 am

MunsterMac wrote:

I'm afraid you are deluding yourself if you think Ireland ever came close to being a World Class or even very successful team.

Ireland is now what is has been for the last 10 years: A country who will win all of the time against Fiji, Samoa, Italy, USA, Canada etc, a lot of the time against Argentina, Scotland and Wales, more than they should against England, on their day and on the odd occasion against SA and Australia and rarely or never against France and New Zealand.

Really well I think you're deluding yourself if you think they weren't,consistently 2nd in the 6 Nations only losing a championship on points difference a couple of times is close to being very successful in my book.See how that works instead of rubbishing my point try to make an argument that shows why I'm wrong.I've already shown that we were a more successful team when we had poorer resources even the Grand Slam was done on the back of only two strong provinces,why are we becoming a poorer international team despite have more players who are of a higher quality than ever.

You say that we're country who will win all of the time against Fiji, Samoa, Italy, USA, Canada etc, a lot of the time against Argentina, Scotland and Wales, more than they should against England, on their day and on the odd occasion against SA and Australia and rarely or never against France and New Zealand.

Well I wish that were true but lately we look more like losing a lot against Wales and breaking even with Scotland.I wouldn't be confident if we had to play Argentina away from home either.We're going backward and it's not because our players are getting worse.

by dublin_dave Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:38 am

he was doing really well until the sentence you highlight sin e

he goes on to mention 100% correctly how we stood off them and invited them onto us. i have watched ireland do this time and time again under kidney v both good teams and poor teams. the mentality when we get in front is keep what we have. its a risky risky game. if the wales game was a one off i would agree its very harsh to blame kidney it wasnt. when was the last time we gave a poor side a right old hiding??

Right through the game, I thought Ireland fell into the trap of falling back on structure. With the amount of individual talent they have on the team, there should have been more lads making big plays and grabbing their moment. Even our defence seemed more based on safety of numbers than any massive hits or huge aggression

we are playing a low risk territory first game plan and back our defense. it may win the occasional big game but it will ultimately get us nowhere fast

by **rodders** Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:50 am

MunsterMac wrote:
I'm afraid you are deluding yourself if you think Ireland ever came close to being a World Class or even very successful team.

Ireland is now what is has been for the last 10 years: A country who will win all of the time against Fiji, Samoa, Italy, USA, Canada etc, a lot of the time against Argentina, Scotland and Wales, more than they should against England, on their day and on the odd occasion against SA and Australia and rarely or never against France and New Zealand.

Now you've lost the plot! Why wouldn't we be world class? Do you think NZ, France and Australia are a race of supermen?

No feckin excuses. We have a world class infastructure, top class club teams and we should be aiming to be the best team around.

by Sin é Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:55 am

dublin_dave wrote:he was doing really well until the sentence you highlight sin e

he goes on to mention 100% correctly how we stood off them and invited them onto us. i have watched ireland do this time and time again under kidney v both good teams and poor teams. the mentality when we get in front is keep what we have. its a risky risky game. if the wales game was a one off i would agree its very harsh to blame kidney it wasnt. when was the last time we gave a poor side a right old hiding??

Right through the game, I thought Ireland fell into the trap of falling back on structure. With the amount of individual talent they have on the team, there should have been more lads making big plays and grabbing their moment. Even our defence seemed more based on safety of numbers than any massive hits or huge aggression

we are playing a low risk territory first game plan and back our defense. it may win the occasional big game but it will ultimately get us nowhere fast

I've seen the same thing happen to both Leinster & Munster. For instance, in the Heineken Cup final Leinster were getting hammered, sorting out the scrum helped, but a few big plays from Sexton turned the game.

I've seen Munster go down without a whimper (Toulon, 'Quins), and I've seen Dougie Howlett make a big play and turn a game for Munster as well.

No one took the risk to do anything like that on Sunday. No big hits, no nothing.

by Feckless Rogue Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:07 am

The team has no confidence. Quinlan mentioned that they're just trying to do the basics well. That reminded me that they're constantly going on in interviews about "mistakes". We have to cut out the "mistakes". If we make "mistakes" we'll be punished. We made to many "mistakes". They've been saying it for years under Kidney. Especially since 2010. They're obsessed with and terrified of mistakes, and it's restricting their ambition and their confidence.

I remember reading a blog by Bob Dwyer, where he said that focusing on mistakes is completely the wrong way to go about coaching a team. You have to do the opposite. Drill into them all the positive things you want from them. Make them fearless and make them know exactly what they're supposed to be doing and the mistakes will stop being an issue.

Kidney's Ireland are obsessed with the mistakes they might make and are too afraid to unleash their best. Wales are not.

by MunsterMac Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:12 am

asoreleftshoulder

I am not trying to pick a fight with you or be the least bit antagonistic.

However I do think that my point is a much broader one than the one you are trying to make.

While you seem intent on blaming the whole lot on Kidney and his staff I'm saying that there are broader structural issues at play here as well.

See how that works instead of rubbishing my point try to make an argument that shows why I'm wrong

I would say I did.

I've already shown that we were a more successful team when we had poorer resources even the Grand Slam was done on the back of only two strong provinces,why are we becoming a poorer international team despite have more players who are of a higher quality than ever.

I don't understand why my point about Ireland being now what they have been for the last 10 years being valid?

Since the GS Ireland have finished 2nd in the 6n in 2010, 3rd level on points with 2nd placed France in 2011, gotten to the quaterfinals of the WC (better than 2007 by the way) and beaten SA and AUS once each.

How is that any better or worse than what preceeded it?

Well I wish that were true but lately we look more like losing a lot against Wales and breaking even with Scotland.I wouldn't be confident if we had to play Argentina away from home either.We're going backward and it's not because our players are getting worse.

I think you need to calm down and stop panicking.

As I said earlier we are going through a bad patch against Wales at the moment but that could easily change very soon. Maybe next time we play them we'll get the rub of the green with the officials.

Scotland? - We've lost ONE 6N match against them since 2001. The other 2 losses were WC warmups. Hardly a reason to start ushering the women and children into the lifeboats.

And nobody is confident when playing Argentina in Argentina. In the last few years they've beaten Wales, Scotland, England and France at home.

by asoreleftshoulder Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:15 am

dublin_dave wrote:
Right through the game, I thought Ireland fell into the trap of falling back on structure. With the amount of individual talent they have on the team, there should have been more lads making big plays and grabbing their moment. Even our defence seemed more based on safety of numbers than any massive hits or huge aggression

I don't know if I'd agree with that,I saw in that game alone our scrum stood up to be counted,I saw Heaslip win lineout ball and make breaks and offloads he also instigated a great series of pick n go's,Sexton won at least 2 turovers by clamping on the ball in the tackle and holding the man up,he also was made some fantastic restarts,SoB made more tackles than anyone else,O'Connell dominated the lineout and won back rea couple of restarts,Kearney won up n unders he had no right to and his running line and pass created the space for the 2nd try.Murray made some good breaks around the ruck to try to spark us into life,Ryan was like a man possessed when he came on Bowe while he had a mixed game created the 1st try and finished the 2nd.

Our players stood up but were handicapped by a defensive gameplan that gave both possession and territory to Wales,the fact that we only lost by 2 points is a credit to the players that took the field imo.

by MunsterMac Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:18 am

Now you've lost the plot! Why wouldn't we be world class? Do you think NZ, France and Australia are a race of supermen?

No feckin excuses. We have a world class infastructure, top class club teams and we should be aiming to be the best team around.

'World Class' was in reference to our national team of the mid noughties which it quite patently was not (2007 WC?!?!) and not about our infastructures, club sides etc.

Read before you rant.

I never said we couldn't be World Class.

by Standulstermen Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:24 am

Feckless Rogue wrote:The team has no confidence. Quinlan mentioned that they're just trying to do the basics well. That reminded me that they're constantly going on in interviews about "mistakes". We have to cut out the "mistakes". If we make "mistakes" we'll be punished. We made to many "mistakes". They've been saying it for years under Kidney. Especially since 2010. They're obsessed with and terrified of mistakes, and it's restricting their ambition and their confidence.

I remember reading a blog by Bob Dwyer, where he said that focusing on mistakes is completely the wrong way to go about coaching a team. You have to do the opposite. Drill into them all the positive things you want from them. Make them fearless and make them know exactly what they're supposed to be doing and the mistakes will stop being an issue.

Kidney's Ireland are obsessed with the mistakes they might make and are too afraid to unleash their best. Wales are not.

Good post

by SecretFly Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:27 am

At this point Kidney could change his entire 22. I wouldn't be the first to shout in protest.

But evenso, that then is only the same point coming at you from around a different corner.

Except for O'Driscoll and Earls... basically the same side showed up as turned out against Wales last time. Same result occured. This time even more pronounced, given that it was a home game, big home crowd and a few months of study for the coaching team on what went wrong the first time and how they might handle the next encounter.

So the players didn't man up on either occasion, says Quinlan (a man I respect..and a man who knew how to walk the walk in manning up).

Okay, so accepting that players didn't man-up on two big occasions, then that surely is a licence for Kidney to begin to make these players who are not manning up sweat a little? Take them off and let them cook on the sidelines or even back in their Provinces. Yeah, even Sexton... I'm not going to be preferential here. The players who didn't man up, according to Kidney and his coaches, should be dispensed with. If they are underperforming, I'd invite him to be ruthless in weeding out those that are.

Put O'Gara on and introduce a few novices. Afterall, that's exactly what many critics have been asking for all along when we felt Kidney might be trying to develop a faster game but didn't seem to have the players that could catch a speeding ball - ie, if the system isn't at fault, replace the players who can't/or won't play it. Do that coldly without emotion and then see what happens.

The problem is that when you agree with someone like Quinlan and say a position should not be a right but one worked for constantly at provincial and International level, you get the people who come out of the woodwork and shout: "Nonsense. These are the best players available to Kidney - you just don't chop and change at international level. Grow up, and cop on when you're at it. Idiotic idea to bring in rookies without experience or players who might be in-form for provinces but who haven't proven anything yet at International!"

Oh right I say...so we're back at the beginning again. And therefore someone is still responsible for the continuous stream of bad Irish performances.

by asoreleftshoulder Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:37 am

MunsterMac wrote:
See how that works instead of rubbishing my point try to make an argument that shows why I'm wrong

I would say I did.

No you said i was deluded if I though we weren't close to being successful or world class,you made no effort to back that up.

I've already shown that we were a more successful team when we had poorer resources even the Grand Slam was done on the back of only two strong provinces,why are we becoming a poorer international team despite have more players who are of a higher quality than ever.
I don't understand why my point about Ireland being now what they have been for the last 10 years being valid?

Since the GS Ireland have finished 2nd in the 6n in 2010, 3rd level on points with 2nd placed France in 2011, gotten to the quaterfinals of the WC (better than 2007 by the way) and beaten SA and AUS once each.

How is that any better or worse than what preceeded it?

It's the quality of performance that is getting worse and while we have gone from consistently winning 4 games to only winning 3,add that to the fact that we are looking at 3rd place at best this 6 Nations and there is serious evidence of decline.

Well I wish that were true but lately we look more like losing a lot against Wales and breaking even with Scotland.I wouldn't be confident if we had to play Argentina away from home either.We're going backward and it's not because our players are getting worse.

I think you need to calm down and stop panicking.

As I said earlier we are going through a bad patch against Wales at the moment but that could easily change very soon. Maybe next time we play them we'll get the rub of the green with the officials.

That's irrelevant we have the players to beat them without the rub of the green,that's why I'm so disappointed I don't rate Wales as anything more than a decent team and I expect to beat them when we're at home and they are crippled with injuries.

Scotland? - We've lost ONE 6N match against them since 2001. The other 2 losses were WC warmups. Hardly a reason to start ushering the women and children into the lifeboats.

Losing to Scotland at home is a disaster and away is disappointing,they are an improving side but are nowhere near our class yet,you make the point that we can't compete with France who have 14 sides well Scotland have only 2 who up until this year have a pathetic record at HC level,using your logic they should not be able to compete with us

And nobody is confident when playing Argentina in Argentina. In the last few years they've beaten Wales, Scotland, England and France at home.

That's a fair point

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:43 am

SecretFly wrote:The problem is that when you agree with someone like Quinlan and say a position should not be a right but one worked for constantly at provincial and International level, you get the people who come out of the woodwork and shout: "Nonsense. These are the best players available to Kidney - you just don't chop and change at international level. Grow up, and cop on when you're at it. Idiotic idea to bring in rookies without experience or players who might be in-form for provinces but who haven't proven anything yet at International!"

Oh right I say...so we're back at the beginning again. And therefore someone is still responsible for the continuous stream of bad Irish performances.

Or we could do what one country has done and thrown in players from their weakest side when their form demanded it. How some of us mocked when they threw these novices into the international arena with a handful of caps between them and with very little competitive European action under their belts. That team which included Priestland, North, Falateau and Dan Lydiate. I'm pretty sure they just gave us two tactical beatings in a row. But sure, what do we have to learn from them?

by Sin é Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:49 am

Don't recall too many apologies for 'mistakes' unless giving away silly penalties is what you are referring to.

Some coaches/teams blame the ref when they don't win, Irish teams tend to take it on the chin more.

To me the team looked as if they prefer playing for their provinces and the Ireland gig is a chore that takes them out of their comfort zone.

Maybe its come too easy for some of them - when you think of what a successful career that someone like Rob Kearney has had already - whereas BOD had to put a bit more work into getting where he is.

When Munster were winning a lot - the Munster players (who made up the majority of the Irish team) were accused of not playing like they did for Ireland as they did for Munster. I just wonder if maybe some of the players are just shattered from their successful Heineken Cup campaigns when they come into Ireland camp, and not able to raise the levels for international rugby (in comparision to the Welsh teams who have mostly bombed out at club level).

by MunsterMac Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:52 am

It's the quality of performance that is getting worse and while we have gone from consistently winning 4 games to only winning 3,add that to the fact that we are looking at 3rd place at best this 6 Nations and there is serious evidence of decline.

I think winning 3 instead of 4 over a 2 year period would only show up as a statistical blip on a chart.

Whatever it's hardly "serious evidence of decline".

That's irrelevant we have the players to beat them without the rub of the green,that's why I'm so disappointed I don't rate Wales as anything more than a decent team and I expect to beat them when we're at home and they are crippled with injuries.

Oh I think you're on dodgy ground there. I think you're being a little more than disrespectful to a nation with a greater rugby tradition and history than ours.

At our best there's no evidence to suggest that we should be anything more than even stevens with Wales.

Losing to Scotland at home is a disaster and away is disappointing,they are an improving side but are nowhere near our class yet,you make the point that we can't compete with France who have 14 sides well Scotland have only 2 who up until this year have a pathetic record at HC level,using your logic they should not be able to compete with us

Oh for God's sake. We've lost to Scotland once in over 10 years in the 6N and you consider that a disaster!! Get a grip.

And yes Scotland pick their team from 2 teams,a whole ONE team more than we do.

Yep that's right up there with France's 14 sides.

I'm going home now.

by asoreleftshoulder Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:13 am

MunsterMac wrote:

I think winning 3 instead of 4 over a 2 year period would only show up as a statistical blip on a chart.

Whatever it's hardly "serious evidence of decline".

Can't agree when you see the performances as well as the results that's when you draw conclusions.If you were to give me those stats with no other evidence I could agree it's a blip but when you actually watch Ireland play you can see something is wrong

Oh I think you're on dodgy ground there. I think you're being a little more than disrespectful to a nation with a greater rugby tradition and history than ours.

At our best there's no evidence to suggest that we should be anything more than even stevens with Wales.

If only we were on even ground that would be a start,the fact that our clubs dominate the Welsh by a considerable margin is enough for me to conclude our players are better.It's not even close and we both have the same number of clubs so your argument doesn't work there.
Also Wales are historically a strong rugby nation but since professionalism we have dominated them,that's changed and again I ask why when our players are still dominating them week in,week out in the HC and Rabo.It's not even close at that level so give me a reasonable argument why there has been such a massive turnaround.There's all the evidence you need to suggest we should be more than even stevens with Wales.

Oh for God's sake. We've lost to Scotland once in over 10 years in the 6N and you consider that a disaster!! Get a grip.

And yes Scotland pick their team from 2 teams,a whole ONE team more than we do.

Yep that's right up there with France's 14 sides.

I'm going home now.

We also lost a warmup match against them and no losing once in ten years isn't the disaster it's losing a home game as well as a warmup added to the general level of performance against them.

Honestly you are ignoring the performances which have been getting worse year on year.Well the results are beginning to match the performances and I don't see that changing with the current management.

If Ireland were playing as well as they could and still losing I could agree with your argument but we are so far below the level our players are capable of so I don't think theplayers are the problem.

by SecretFly Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:23 am

Sin é wrote:Don't recall too many apologies for 'mistakes' unless giving away silly penalties is what you are referring to.

Some coaches/teams blame the ref when they don't win, Irish teams tend to take it on the chin more.

To me the team looked as if they prefer playing for their provinces and the Ireland gig is a chore that takes them out of their comfort zone.

Maybe its come too easy for some of them - when you think of what a successful career that someone like Rob Kearney has had already - whereas BOD had to put a bit more work into getting where he is.

When Munster were winning a lot - the Munster players (who made up the majority of the Irish team) were accused of not playing like they did for Ireland as they did for Munster. I just wonder if maybe some of the players are just shattered from their successful Heineken Cup campaigns when they come into Ireland camp, and not able to raise the levels for international rugby (in comparision to the Welsh teams who have mostly bombed out at club level).

Some excellent points there Sin é.

So if that is a factor, and I've already alluded to something similar in another thread, how do we work through that? How do we manage Provincial success and make it not hinder International (as seems to be an issue with the present set-up) but effectively give impetus to the International side.

I said a little while ago too that maybe when we're all happy (us Irish) enough using the Pro12 to prepare ourselves for our HC campaigns, the Welsh might be busy using their Pro12 games to limber up for International season?

Maybe we think we're beating those Welsh sides and the players are smirking to themselves and waiting for the time when they can show their true form. What's a Welsh player's priority? I think it's clear from the look on their faces on Sunday where their souls lie.

Whatever the truth is - there needs to be serious work done in refocusing our player's priorities - if they want International, if they consider it an honour; then they better damn well prove it each time. That's why a bigger real squad of real contenders for International positions would only help Ireland. Competition for places only works when it's real - and when it's real, it works

by ME-109 Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:28 am

Ireland Postmortem....

Some say it was the Coach
A Few say it was the players
A lot say it was the Welsh....

by Rory_Gallagher Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:28 am

If there's anything I hate, it is the fact people are just accepting we are not as good as Wales, Australia, SA, France, NZ etc etc. Stop accepting mediocrity for goodness sake. We have players that can match all of these teams, so enough of this "oh but I wouldn't trade such and such for this country's player". If you want to accept we are second, third, fourth etc etc best, then go for it, bask in mediocrity. But I know for a fact we have the players capable of beating any of those sides listed. Someone said it earlier - the game has moved on, Kidney hasn't. The players all want to play running rugby, Kidney doesn't. There is a pattern here, see?

I hope Kidney actually learns how to play rugby, and allows the players to. Sin, I think it is you who said on the Ulster thread how ridiculous it is that McLaughlin let the senior players take charge in some aspects of coaching/how Ulster play etc. Well that certainly isn't what Kidney does, he obviously wants Ireland to play his type of game (the old Munster way) and it isn't working. He needs to wise up and adapt to the game, because the rest of the rugby community has. It is frankly embarrassing that we haven't.

by Rory_Gallagher Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:30 am

"Oh for God's sake. We've lost to Scotland once in over 10 years in the 6N and you consider that a disaster!! Get a grip."

This is exactly the attitude I mean. Bugs me that we should all feel okay about a defeat. We shouldn't. We want wins, nothing less. I know I have been extremely pessimistic over the past few days with regards to Ireland, but I will be supporting them fully against France this weekend.

by SecretFly Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:47 am

I'm with you Rory. Defeat annoys me too Wink

To anyone.

If we play the way I want us to play - regularly, then I'd accept defeat with more grace. I don't mean gracious in defeat btw - I've done that and Wales Did beat us on scoreboard and in the game itself. But playing the way we do now, with the players available to us - who don't need to kiss any Welsh player's boots on ability - it just needs to change. It just needs to change. Hopefully, on Saturday we can see something to pin a future on.

by KiaRose Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:47 pm

I have just sat and rewatched last Sunday's game. I haven't read all nine pages of posts here so I am sure some of my following comments will already have been made. I haven't contributed to this becasue I was fed up about all the whingeing about the management - a great deal of it seemed to have a provincial bias (this may not have been the case, but that was how it seemed to me).

Before the 6Ns started I said I wished for Ireland to play with the grit and determination which Connacht showed v 'Quins and Ulster played against Tigers; the silky handling we saw from Leinster against Bath (in Lansdowne Rd) and the pizazz Munster showed against Saints.

On Sunday there was little or none of this. Connacht beat Quins quite simply because they never let Quins settle on the ball; their defenders were in the face of every ball carrier like men possessed. How far off the Wales line were the Irish defenders on Sunday? Time and time again they allowed the Welsh players to get momentum going. Do you remember years ago there was an ad on tv about not holding an infant on your lap in the front seat of the car? The momentum of the infant was the same as trying to hold onto the front row of the scrum (I did the sums with a physics class and it was true). Jamie Roberts is very difficult to stop once he has started motoring (as are all the Welsh backline) and yet the Irish defenders stood back and allowed them to build up momentum. I cannot say that that was "the gameplan". If it were it was blydi stupid and it WAS management's fault. But was it the "gameplan"?

The other thing which rewatching the game confirmed from my first viewing on Sunday was the wayward pointless kicking. I am not talking about the one that screwed off the side of Trimble's boot or the box-kick that Murray put straight out - mistakes which everyone makes at times. I am talking about kicking balls down the centre of the pitch to the Welsh back three rather than kicking into space OR going for touch, even if it were only a safe touch. We had the better of the lineout (although they did score a great try off one lineout) - why didn't we use it more?

In that famous meeting in Enfield before the 2009 6Ns the only report that I have heard of it was Rob Kearney asking why the Munster players did not play for Ireland with the same passion that they show for Munster? That question should now be addressed to more than the Munster players. And whatever the management are saying or doing THEY ARE NOT ON THE PITCH PLAYING. This is Quinlan's point in his article mentioned in the Irish Times.

So lads, can we please have some of the passion, grit, determination, bloody-mindedness and sheer manic aggression which you show for your provinces on the field for Saturday against France? They are not supermen - they put their trousers on one leg at a time just like you do. Show us the form you displayed against Tigers, Quins, Saints and Bath and you stand a good chance of winnning. But even if you lose you will have told us, your loyal Irish fans, that the green jersey means something to you and you are prepared to give your all while you are wearing it.

by **rodders** Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:10 pm

Great post kia

by dublin_dave Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:31 pm

excellent post kia.

much as i dislike losing if we deliver a decent passionate performance and try and play rugby on saturday even in defeat i will be happy.

i have moaned about kidney, smal, kiss all week but the players are not completely blameless. as quinlan said in his article they need to show some dog, swing a dig or two start a row. let the french know they are in a game. much like seany did in opening minutes v aus

by ME-109 Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:35 pm

oh oh there is no place for sensible arguments on this thread Kia. I think you should delete it and leave it to the whiny / pie in the sky brigade

by KiaRose Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:45 pm

DOD wrote:oh oh there is no place for sensible arguments on this thread Kia. I think you should delete it and leave it to the whiny / pie in the sky brigade

It was their presence which persuaded me not to read all the posts in the first place DOD.

by Sin é Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:46 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
I hope Kidney actually learns how to play rugby, and allows the players to. Sin, I think it is you who said on the Ulster thread how ridiculous it is that McLaughlin let the senior players take charge in some aspects of coaching/how Ulster play etc. Well that certainly isn't what Kidney does, he obviously wants Ireland to play his type of game (the old Munster way) and it isn't working. He needs to wise up and adapt to the game, because the rest of the rugby community has. It is frankly embarrassing that we haven't.

The exact opposite Rory. The players have to take on the responsibility of playing what is in front of them and not be waiting on instructions from the sideline.

by nganboy Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:47 pm

I know you fellah's up North love the HC but may be its just not that good at preparing you for internationals. You will know better than mean if there is any correlation between HC wins and Internationals.

Interestingly, Jane, Weepu, Smith, Nonu, Hore and Cruden had poor to average seasons for the Hurricanes (who were pants) directly before the world cup but Henry brought them through all right. May be coaching is important.

by Sin é Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:09 pm

ngaboy - similar situation to Ulster - didn't Hammet ruffle a few feathers (including Nonu) when he came in last season like sacking him and weepu.

by SecretFly Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:47 am

It's a simple solution...and continues to be...and continues to be a coaching solution. If the plan ain't all bad and the boys that are picked by this coaching team once again fail to implement it - then simply change the players.

No matter how you approach the argument, no matter what the spin on what's going wrong - the path to a better future is in the hands of those who pick the side and choose the plan.

Nothing provincial in it - change the plan or change the players playing it. And amidst all the pages and pages of print in the last one or two years, that has been the continuous call from the uninformed moaners, the anti-Kidneyites and the guys who live in the clouds with fancy empty words... Wink

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