The All New England v Wales bickering thread, 2012

[HERSH]

First topic message reminder :

Same idea as the last one created by TycroesOsprey, but this time can we please stay on topic and no silly ponies.

"OK, every year we see threads that actually contain really good rugby discussion derailed by the ongoing Wales vs England bickering and WUMMING! I will name no names. I guess we have all been guilty.

Since most of the general bickering comes from the respective fans of Wales and England ; I thought I would create a thread for it in an effort to keep decent rugby discussion relatively WUM free in other threads. "

Let it commence

[miteyironpaw]

Oh, it's an English moral victory. Surely that goes without saying. We only had 11 caps between the whole team and were facing the most experience Welsh team in the history of the game, in form and playing better than any Wales team has ever played... and but for yet another pro-Wales game changing refereeing howler we would have won it.

The refs are on for a Welsh grand-slam. I wonder if it's pay back from the IRB for perceived harshness in the RWC? Or whether it's falling under the wider banner of helping the smaller developing nations?

[Luckless Pedestrian]

my mistake - it was Barritt that made the tackle but didn't prevent the Welsh player from placing the ball as he had hold of his ankle and he didn't attempt to play the ball ...

But the point is that he didn't release him. It was fussy refereeing maybe, but it's a penalty offence.

[tatterd]

Well Played Wales.

I knew you would win once I found out who the ref was, but to be honest he evened it out with Priestlands yellow (what was that for again?)

But I think the moral victory was ours, especially with that try at the end.

I'm looking forward to the Wal v Fra game, and I think England could win both of our remaining games.

Can I print this off and frame it HERSH??

[Heaf]

but when Wales do the same thing he penalised England again - can't have it both ways ...

[Heaf]

my mistake - it was Barritt that made the tackle but didn't prevent the Welsh player from placing the ball as he had hold of his ankle and he didn't attempt to play the ball ...

But the point is that he didn't release him. It was fussy refereeing maybe, but it's a penalty offence.

But when Wales did the same thing he penalised England again - can't have it both ways ...

[Luckless Pedestrian]

I'm not saying he was perfect today, none of us is perfect. I was just clarifying what the first penalty was for.

[miteyironpaw]

I know what he gave it for, but he was wrong.

[Heaf]

I just think it was a very harsh call and no other ref would have given it that way ... how many times have we seen someone let go of an ankle only to have the tackled player get up and run off ... the penalty should be used for preventing the tackled player from placing the ball - which he didn't ... the case for the Welsh player holding on was much stronger ...

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Mitey, if you 'know what he gave it for,' why did you complain earlier that he gave the penalty for something else?

[Heaf]

and by the way this was just one of many unbelievable gaffs ... massive knock-on in the tackle when Wales were down to 14 men which should have given England an attacking scrum and he says it came off the players head .... how on earth could he have come to that conclusion - the tacklers head was no-where near the ball

[HERSH]

Well Played Wales.

I knew you would win once I found out who the ref was, but to be honest he evened it out with Priestlands yellow (what was that for again?)

But I think the moral victory was ours, especially with that try at the end.

I'm looking forward to the Wal v Fra game, and I think England could win both of our remaining games.

Can I print this off and frame it HERSH??

That you may, I said all week that Wales would win my only fear was by how many, 7pts is about right as to where the teams are IMO.

Things we now know.

Ben Youngs has been over coached and has lost what was special, plus he can't pass the ball.
Chris Ashton isn't the best winger in the world, but I think we already knew that.
Owen Farrell could go on and be the player England have been looking for since Wilko.
Ben Morgan needs to lose some weight.
Matt Stevens needs to stop wearing scrum caps as he clearly can't hear when the Ref says leave it.
Courtney Lawes is a pus sy who can't hold onto the ball.

[miteyironpaw]

It was telling that in such an inexperienced team, it was the most experienced Englishmen who let the team down.

Ashton needs some quiet time to reflect away from the starting lineup. He can sit next to Foden.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Heaf, bear in mind that the referee only gets to see things once, and in real time. You can't expect him to see everything and get every decision right.

[mystiroakey]

ashton wasnt good at all,

[Morgannwg]

Wonder why North wasnt carded for the Tackle on Farrell. Lifted and driven back. Consistency!?

OMG are you for real? The tackle was legal, and what a tackle it was!

[mystiroakey]

he didnt drop him so fair play- mental tackle- couldnt believe he got up after

[Heaf]

Heaf, bear in mind that the referee only gets to see things once, and in real time. You can't expect him to see everything and get every decision right.

LP agree - however when a tackle is made and the ball flies backwards at 90 degrees to the angle that the pass was going in and the ball was at waist height how you can not come to the only conclusion that it was knocked on by the tackler is beyond me ... to say it came off his head when he clearly couldn't have seen that happen as it didn't and to ignore the obvious conclusion makes you wonder ... he didn't have to see the player's hand actually touch the ball - there was no other realistic way for the ball to have travelled in that direction ... that decision denied England a good attacking position when they had an extra man and to add insult to injury then led to a Wales penalty ...

I agree he can't see or get everything right but Walsh seems to miss or get more wrong than most - especially when refereeing an England match ... I haven't even mentioned the crooked line-outs, players in front of the kicker at restarts, binding on arms, deliberate knocking of the ball into touch, multiple penalties without yellow, not going back for advantage at the end etc ...

[mystiroakey]

i like a ref that moves the game on in fairness- walsh is ok

[TycroesOsprey]

ashton wasnt good at all,

Im so glad I subbed Ashton out of my fantasy league team but I maintain that a lot of his lack of go forward stems from the midfield distribution. I still think he is quality but is clearly out of sorts in this team. Sharples maybe and send Ashton back to Saints to get his mojo back.

[mystiroakey]

obviously he needs service- like any 'finisher' however he was off today with his general play! he couldnt even pass

[TycroesOsprey]

Spoiler:

[mystiroakey]

you had to didnt ya

[miteyironpaw]

Typo there TO, there's clearly 5 clowns, not three.

[TycroesOsprey]

[TycroesOsprey]

You did beat our women though 33-0 so heres Willy to make you smile.

Spoiler:

[miteyironpaw]

I tell you what I enjoyed the accuracy of the refereeing of the women's game.

[Woodstock]

A poor Welsh performance at onestage down to 14 men for 10 minutes and the SCORE !! What's all that about?? Just shows you what a poor standard england are. For their sad fans to grasp at straws is quite honestly the fun after the game now.

TRIPLE CROWN = WALES

GRAND SLAM = NOT ENGLAND

[RuckingFlanker86]

Oh my god, it's already a devalued triple crown win!

Wales your were lucky for blah blah blah and blah blah blah.

WE WUZ ROBBED INGERLAND, WE WUZ ROBBEEED CRY CRY CRY

Alot of Ingerland fans set their stalls out early and nows the time for them to suck it up.

COME ON AND SUCK IT UP!!!!!!!!!!!

[mystiroakey]

the welsh nutters are back lol

[miteyironpaw]

The 6N immediately following a RWC is a time for rebuilding Woodstock. I understand it leaves a window of opportunity for sides who don't have an realistic chance to win in genuine competitions to get a few cheap and hollow victories by fielding their veterans against development squads put out by the genuine global contenders.

But, you know enjoy the post RWC trinkets this time around against as you did in 2008.

[Glas a du]

Ben Youngs has been over coached and has lost what was special, plus he can't pass the ball.
Chris Ashton isn't the best winger in the world, but I think we already knew that.
Owen Farrell could go on and be the player England have been looking for since Wilko.
Ben Morgan needs to lose some weight.
Matt Stevens needs to stop wearing scrum caps as he clearly can't hear when the Ref says leave it.
Courtney Lawes is a pus sy who can't hold onto the ball.

Harsh but honest assessment.

I agree Walsh missed a lot, but it was a two way street.

The try could have been given, but the conversion would be a hard first kick for Flood who apparently bottled it in his last game.

Guys, Lancaster is doing well, keep him. You earned a moral draw there I think.

[HERSH]

So it was a try?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/17169125

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Heaf, bear in mind that the referee only gets to see things once, and in real time. You can't expect him to see everything and get every decision right.

LP agree - however when a tackle is made and the ball flies backwards at 90 degrees to the angle that the pass was going in and the ball was at waist height how you can not come to the only conclusion that it was knocked on by the tackler is beyond me ... to say it came off his head when he clearly couldn't have seen that happen as it didn't and to ignore the obvious conclusion makes you wonder ... he didn't have to see the player's hand actually touch the ball - there was no other realistic way for the ball to have travelled in that direction ... that decision denied England a good attacking position when they had an extra man and to add insult to injury then led to a Wales penalty ...

France v England, Six Nations 2008: a tackle by Jamie Noon on Cedric Heymans, exactly the same, the ball flies forwards off Noon and Paul Sackey scores a try from it. Them's the breaks.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

EDIT: Duplicate post!

[mystiroakey]

it probally was- however- if the ref doesnt see it and cameras cant give a conclusive answer- how can the benefit of the doubt go with the attacking team.

i felt the game and the situation deserved an england try- due to the fact that england should have had a penalty anyway- as no advantge was gained, but nothing could prove the try- therefore i am not sure how it could have been given.

[doctornickolas]

So it was a try?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/17169125

What would you expect him to say??

However at no point was that ball grounded as shown by the replays. End of. Correct decision. The first one he had given for Wales all day.

[doctornickolas]

The 6N immediately following a RWC is a time for rebuilding Woodstock. I understand it leaves a window of opportunity for sides who don't have an realistic chance to win in genuine competitions to get a few cheap and hollow victories by fielding their veterans against development squads put out by the genuine global contenders.

But, you know enjoy the post RWC trinkets this time around against as you did in 2008.

Thing is Wales started 'rebuilding' a year ago and so our team which has the same average age as Englands now has more international experience. Don't blame the rest of the world for England's inept management and strategy. Not our fault you chose the same 'veterans' for the WC who should have been put out to pasture 4 years ago.

[mystiroakey]

so you thought the ref was biased towards england??

not sure if i can agree with that

[dogtooth]

refs are only human. Walsh spotted some things and missed some things. wales have been unlucky with reffs not spotting/spotting things in the past. luck evens out. wales deserved the win.

england played brilliantly and had a game to stop wales, so hats off to those boys.

but, wales 7point win in twik'num. i couldnt belive it. i still cant believe it. we won!

[HERSH]

Remember the ball only has to touch a blade of grass, which it did for 0.157sec

TRY!

OH wait I forgot TMO's don't give England anything, ever.

[doctornickolas]

so you thought the ref was biased towards england??

not sure if i can agree with that

Absolutely. I though he was angling for a jog with the RFU to be honest.

As I have said elsewhere.

Where were England's final warning for the scrum disintegrating on their own line a few times, for their hands all over the ball all day, for the age to get it out of the ruck, the definite yellow for taking a guy out in the lineout.

At one point England had a good 45 second advantage before coming back for a penalty, in the same position he gave Wales about 5 secs.

And the try decision was correct but that was not in his hands so I can't even give him credit for that.

[gmclachl]

From a neutral point of view I thought the ref had a good game. The only thing which stuck out for me was was George North knocking it into touch and not being penalised.

I don't think Wales were the better team either, It was very close and I think England just nudged that honour, but Wales got the rub of the green (not to take away from the victory)

Overall great game though and Wales done well to get a win away from home.

I am slightly concerned about what this England team could develop into.

[mystiroakey]

refs are only human. Walsh spotted some things and missed some things. wales have been unlucky with reffs not spotting/spotting things in the past. luck evens out. wales deserved the win.

england played brilliantly and had a game to stop wales, so hats off to those boys.

but, wales 7point win in twik'num. i couldnt belive it. i still cant believe it. we won!

yes wales deserved the win, 100% not disputing it-had enough of the some welsh posters trying to make out they won dispite of the refs biased to england, they won playing rubbish. The game was brilliant- both sides played great defense, dont understand some of the welsh views even though they won and deservedly did- it doenst make sense- did they want a drubbing, what are they not happy about!

[HERSH]

morally we won

[Luckless Pedestrian]

TMO's don't give England anything, ever.

Are you sure about that?

https://youtu.be/2yRM46g0Mp4

[Cowshot]

but, wales 7point win in twik'num. i couldnt belive it. i still cant believe it. we won!

No you didn't. You are imagining it. Honest.

Btw I did see a shot on TV that clearly showed Strettle grounding the ball for THAT try. But they didn't show that shot while the 4th official was trying to give a judgement. Why not???

[Glas a du]

No, morally it was a draw

[dogtooth]

dont understand some of the welsh views even though they won and deservedly did- it doenst make sense- did they want a drubbing, what are they not happy about!

i think its a bit of shock at winning after a very tough match. shock that england played so well and nearly toppled us. i think there is some worry that wales still dont really have a plan b. i think this match really shook a lot of wales fans. we are not used to this sort of expectation and outcome

[Woodstock]

Whahahahaha these english types are getting as bad as Kiwi's these days. Can not beat someone by outscoring them go directly to blaming the ref for everything......what a cop out, what a bunch of sore losers, but LOSERS just the same.

[mystiroakey]

oh your back. great - thats my que to get breakfast!

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