French & English clubs position themselves for HEC debate

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From the Grauniad,,


The leading clubs in the Aviva Premiership in England and Top 14 in France are ready to organise an alternative tournament to the Heineken Cup because they feel European rugby's premier club competition is weighted too heavily in favour of the Celtic nations.

Leinster and Munster have dominated the Heineken Cup in recent years, winning the trophy between them in five of the last seven seasons with Leinster champions three times in the last four tournaments.

Rivals in England and France believe the success of the Irish sides is largely because they are able to rest players regularly during the RaboDirect Pro 12 campaign as qualification for the following season's Heineken Cup is a virtual formality, something that is not the case in the Aviva Premiership and Top 14.

"Most of the Ireland squad will not be released for the Pro 12 until rounds three or four, something they could not do if they depended on their finishing position in the league for European qualification," said Mark McCafferty, the chief executive of Premiership Rugby. "The clubs in England and France have served two years' notice that we intend to pull out of Europe because there needs to be a level playing field.

"So far, the response from the other countries has been slow, even though we are not sabre-rattling. We have not been locked in talks and there is no meeting about the issue until the end of next month. Our view is that the qualification process needs to be changed so that it is entirely merit based – the top teams in all three leagues as well as the winners of the Heineken Cup and the Amlin Challenge Cup should make up 20 sides taking part."

The English and French clubs want to ration the Pro 12 involvement to the top six teams in the league, which would run a risk of Scotland and Italy, whose teams currently qualify automatically, not being involved in a Heineken Cup campaign.

"I think those countries have effectively made that decision by forming the Pro 12," said McCafferty. "It is like me saying that the Premiership has to provide a qualifier from the south-west. It cannot be good for the competition that you do not have the best sides qualifying. Aironi were disbanded at the end of the last season and the newly formed Zebres go straight into the Heineken Cup.

"Are the Italian teams ready for the Heineken Cup given their record? It is all put into perspective when some really big names are not involved and the system plays a role in the way Leinster and Munster have dominated the competition in recent years. European Rugby Cup Ltd is dragging its heels and I cannot understand it."

McCafferty acknowledged that the two sides were approaching the problem from different directions. "Some 80% of our business is the Aviva Premiership," he went on. "It is what drives our revenue and gates. I understand the Pro 12 model is different, but we cannot damage our core competition for 20% [the Heineken Cup]. ERC should know that we are serious and while the issue has to be resolved, everyone has to realise we cannot carry on as we are. If it is not, we would go to an Anglo-French competition and if others wanted to join us, fair enough.

"I feel for the Welsh regions because they are caught in the middle. They have financial issues and you cannot build a business on three home games. Ireland have a central system with the union funding everything apart from the overseas players. Wales are reliant on private money largely and they need a business with 15 home fixtures. I think changing the qualification for Europe would strengthen the RaboDirect."

Recwatcher,

Injuries can happen to anyone. Munster didn't have Doug Howlett, David Wallace or Denis Leamy for their Heineken Cup games last year.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Are the english clubs making big profits? Can they afford to not have the money coming from the HC?

No, mostly the opposite in fact. They are presumably calculating that they will get a bigger slice of a smaller pie with an anglo-french competition

OH come off it Recwatcher, like we're supposed to feel sorrt for Toulouse (who have one of the biggest squads in Europe, and have probably more internationals than any French side at least. So they were missing an entire backline, their backline did include at least 6 internationals and also the tournaments top try scorer.

I don't feel sorry for Toulouse at all.

Stag, yes happens to all teams, Bath had 16 players missing leaving a squad of 24 to pick a match day squad from when they played Leinster in Dublin!

injuries happen to all teams, but I think with the way the English star signing policy is, we will hear more about it.

We lost because XXXX(star player) wasn't playing etc etc, it'll create a bit on a mindset

There appears to be all sorts of mindsets on here.....most already made up.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Are the english clubs making big profits? Can they afford to not have the money coming from the HC?

No only three or four make a profit even with the HEC, probably why they are trying to get more places and more cash.

Maes, yes of course they want more of the pot, they believe they are entitled - I don't necessarily agree with it but put yourself in the club treasurers shoes...

There is no doubt in my mind that if it sadly came to the creation of an Anglo-french club it would be a success with Sky underwriting it. The best club match day atmosphere bar none is in south west France.

Would a Celtic cup competition generate the same commercial interest? Probably not.

Recwatcher wrote:There is no doubt in my mind that if it sadly came to the creation of an Anglo-french club it would be a success with Sky underwriting it. The best club match day atmosphere bar none is in south west France.

Would a Celtic cup competition generate the same commercial interest? Probably not.

Or it could end up like the LV=Cup. Unwanted, unloved development cup.

Possibly Cp but it would not be played during internationals and the English don't like losing to the french and vice versa. I could see it expanding to take in the next two tiers as well to build in some potential giant killing...Bristol beating Stade would be good one.....

Recwatcher wrote:Possibly Cp but it would not be played during internationals and the English don't like losing to the french and vice versa. I could see it expanding to take in the next two tiers as well to build in some potential giant killing...Bristol beating Stade would be good one.....

Unless as I stated earlier that the RFU and their clubs vote against relegation in September.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_8008025,00.html

Can I just ask, if we did end up with a 20 team competition with whatver representation then would we just move to 5 pools of 4 instead of 6 pools of 4??

Or is some other format proposed like 4 pools of 5.

If we want fair play or an even playing field then perhaps we should have an European wide salary cap, every side that wishes to participate in the HC should adhere to the salary cap, I wonder how the English and the French would respond to being told they must have a salary cap the same as the Welsh when they participate in the HC, that would make it fairer.

Did you know that Edinburgh have a higher salary budget than the English sides?

Recwatcher wrote:Did you know that Edinburgh have a higher salary budget than the English sides?

Are you sure ? They might be higher than some of them, but surely the likes of Leicester and Sarries are higher, but as I don't know I will concede that you are right, well you learn something new every day. But, just for the record all Welsh regions are capped at 1.5 million a year.

At the risk of being mugged by my fellow Celts I have a bit of sympathy for the Eng/Fra objections to the HEC qualifying format - although McCafferty has a tendency to get rid of what sympathy I have.

The HEC is a huge success and for what it's worth I don't see a Rabo team winning it next year (I know that's treason from a Leinster fan but that's the way I see it - Leicester or Clermont for me). The qualification system is the problem - so why not get around the problem by expanding it to 32 teams in eight groups of four. Simple qualification for the knockout phase - top two in each group go into the knockout on a seeded basis - top qualifier plays no 16 qualifier, no 2 plays no 15 etc etc.

So question then is how to divvy up the 32 among the six countries - 9 Eng, 9 Fra, 3 Irish, 3 Wal, 1 Sco, 1 Ita - plus six more places to be filled by a prequalifcation tourney involving the best of the non-qualifiers - 4th place Irish, 4th place Welsh, 2nd best Scot, 2nd best Ita, two best non-qual from both Eng and Fra.

Too simple maybe? But it would satisfy the French and English while still ensuring that most of the Rabo teams still qualify with the added bonus of an early-season pre-qualification tourney where nationality of teams is irrelevant. If four Rabo teams come out of that pre-qual then so be it, if four Prem and Top 14 teams come out so be it

For what it is worth LD I think it is a potential idea but too many sides would find ways round it, like tax subsidies.

I thought welsh budgets were £3.5M, the English PRL agreement is £4.3M, Edinburgh £4.5M and Glasgow. The SRU must be sorting out the debt on Murrayfield.

Sorry, you are right it is 3.5, but that is for everything from staff and acadamy players, not just the first team squad.

I wonder if the income within the 12 welsh premiership sides matches the four R12 sides? I have always felt they were discarded as the top welsh tier too quickly. I know the arguments why it happened and it keeps a few WRU officials in blazers, but do wonder what a European league would like with a third domestic league in it. Guess we will now never find out....

Recwatcher wrote:I wonder if the income within the 12 welsh premiership sides matches the four R12 sides? I have always felt they were discarded as the top welsh tier too quickly. I know the arguments why it happened and it keeps a few WRU officials in blazers, but do wonder what a European league would like with a third domestic league in it. Guess we will now never find out....

That's what we had until 2004 where Wales changed to regional rugby like the rest of the major nations in the Rugby World.

You may notice Cardiff RFC as second placed team in the inaugural competition in 96.

Could be wrong, but Celtic Nations do then have the option of setting up a 4 Nations, or even better change to southern Hemp rugby calander and create a 8 nations.

At what point in the crammed SANZAR season do you expect them to find room for an extended 8 nations where large amounts of travel are required and where the new markets are already fully developed and at full development are not worth much financially?

Are the english clubs making big profits? Can they afford to not have the money coming from the HC?

It will be replaced by the Anglo-French competition which would be worth more as they wouldn't have to dole out a cut of the revenue to the Rabo Teams. In the interview they state that the AP already generates more cash than the HEC.

Sorry, you are right it is 3.5, but that is for everything from staff and acadamy players, not just the first team squad.

I thought that was just for the HEC/Amlin playing squad. See BBC article here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/16267538

formerly known as Sam wrote:It will be replaced by the Anglo-French competition which would be worth more as they wouldn't have to dole out a cut of the revenue to the Rabo Teams. In the interview they state that the AP already generates more cash than the HEC.

Do you think this is for the good of rugby, will fans of AP clubs get a better competition, will the Celts lose out, will the French get more from an Anglo/Gaelic competition.

I doubt that very much....!

The HEC is a fantastic competition that represents European rugby at its best below the Six Nations. This Anglo/French concoction, should it happen, is for the good of club owners bank balances and nothing to do with rugby.

I hope French and English rugby fans protest against it...

Do you think this is for the good of rugby, will fans of AP clubs get a better competition, will the Celts lose out, will the French get more from an Anglo/Gaelic competition.

I doubt that very much....!

The HEC is a fantastic competition that represents European rugby at its best below the Six Nations. This, should it happen, is for the good of club owners bank balances and nothing to do with rugby.

I agree that the replacement competition will not be as good, however, as the the Rabo nations flat out refuse to discuss any sort of change. All four Rabo nation Unions are profit making, they fund their super clubs. That isn't the same for the clubs in France and England. They request a change in the divying up of the cash as the French and the English tv deals provide the most cash and that is classed as greedy?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Do you think this is for the good of rugby, will fans of AP clubs get a better competition, will the Celts lose out, will the French get more from an Anglo/Gaelic competition.

I doubt that very much....!

The HEC is a fantastic competition that represents European rugby at its best below the Six Nations. This, should it happen, is for the good of club owners bank balances and nothing to do with rugby.

I agree that the replacement competition will not be as good, however, as the the Rabo nations flat out refuse to discuss any sort of change. All four Rabo nation Unions are profit making, they fund their super clubs. That isn't the same for the clubs in France and England. They request a change in the divying up of the cash as the French and the English tv deals provide the most cash and that is classed as greedy?

SKY is British, not English, it is also available in Ireland. It may be Anglo-centric but it is a British company representing a British consumer. The Sky TV coverage of rugby is not English it is equally British. English Clubs are in a separate deal with the Premiership to the HEC.

SKy covering the HEC is not an English deal it is a British deal. To be fair to them their coverage has become better and better and their encompassing of all things British has too...

The funny thing is the English and French qualification rules are imposed on them by........ themselves. They could change it tomorrow if they wanted.

That leads me to suspect thet it is about money. And they're using the cover of "fairness" to try and get more money. It's an opportune time to do it because the Irish have dominated for 7 years. Obviously because it's not fair. Nothing to do with the fact that Leinster run better lines, pass more accurately than any English or French teams.

They want to cut the amount of teams. But they want to only cut teams from the 4 PRO12 countries. None from England or France. This conveniently means a bigger share of the money pot goes to English and French teams, without having to look at what's wrong with their own rugby set up. Their qualification rules, relegation, flogging players half to death etc.

The idea is to change absolutely nothing in their own faltering setup and force changes on their smaller financially weaker neighbours, under the threat of walking away (which could possibly collapse pro rugby in some nations). That's how I see it.

And I'm actually surprised real English rugby fans are on here agreeing with this stance. There's two things I would suggest.

1. Rather than cut the number of HC teams, expand it make it much easier for French and English teams to qualify. Why not make it a nice round 32. Eight groups of four. Group winner goes to quarter final. No extra HC weekends needed. This would mean 10 French and 10 English qualify. Much easier.

or

2. Go with the French/English plan, but share TV money equally between Amlin and HC teams. So the English gets their fairness in full. But Scottish and Italian teams avoid the danger of bankruptcy. And McCafferty doesn't get extra money for his teams. Would he go for it?

Well said...!

Feckless Rogue wrote:The funny thing is the English and French qualification rules are imposed on them by........ themselves. They could change it tomorrow if they wanted.

The english HC qualification system could not be changed without uprooting the entire English club rugby system and starting again. Moving to a Rabo style system would involve ending relegation, which would be unfair on smaller clubs, like London Welsh, with ambitions to improve. Moving to a province style system would cause a disconnect with the fans, and end some classic rivalries.

The fact is that the HC qualification system was devised before the pro-12 was created, and it has not, yet, been amended to reflect the change in circumstances.

mawhis wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:The funny thing is the English and French qualification rules are imposed on them by........ themselves. They could change it tomorrow if they wanted.

The english HC qualification system could not be changed without uprooting the entire English club rugby system and starting again. Moving to a Rabo style system would involve ending relegation, which would be unfair on smaller clubs, like London Welsh, with ambitions to improve. Moving to a province style system would cause a disconnect with the fans, and end some classic rivalries.

The fact is that the HC qualification system was devised before the pro-12 was created, and it has not, yet, been amended to reflect the change in circumstances.

Ireland and Italy have always entered the same teams since before the English teams joined in 1996-97. Wales changed in 2004.

I think the problem is aimed at Irish dominance, but the Irish have entered the same sides since the start...

mawhis wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:The funny thing is the English and French qualification rules are imposed on them by........ themselves. They could change it tomorrow if they wanted.

The english HC qualification system could not be changed without uprooting the entire English club rugby system and starting again. Moving to a Rabo style system would involve ending relegation, which would be unfair on smaller clubs, like London Welsh, with ambitions to improve. Moving to a province style system would cause a disconnect with the fans, and end some classic rivalries.

The fact is that the HC qualification system was devised before the pro-12 was created, and it has not, yet, been amended to reflect the change in circumstances.

Off the top of my head.

1. You could enter the same 6 teams into the HC every year. Not a very good option.
2. You could issue a three year HC license to 6 teams. After 3 years the poorly performing English HC teams lose the license and it's given the to the best performing AP team over that time.
3. You could base qualification on erc performance instead of AP performance. Every year the worst English HC team goes down to Amlin and the best performing English Amlin team goes up to the HC

I wonder if the English and the French might throw the cat amongst the pigeons by inviting the Welsh regions to participate in a replacement for the HC. I'm not an expert on Welsh regional finances, but I suspect they are in serious trouble without HC income, and English - Welsh games appear to be of interest to both sets of fans.

The alternative of a Rabo cup is completely without commercial interest. And there's no way S15 sides will be jetting all over the world to play Conaught.

Jesus this again, can't cope with a bit of blue dominance. Just cause an Irish team is winning the french and english clubs,because of they're superourity complex, can't cope and must leave, stick at it you guys, Leinster stuck at it and look where they are today , and please stop using the excuse of the fact that the better English and French players are playing too much, Leinster don't have access to their best players all the time so why cant the french and english clubs also rest their players like leinster and maybe they might fare a bit better.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Stag

I disagree with you about whether there MUST be representation from each nation.

The Heineken Cup should be an elite competition where the best teams in Europe slug it out for the crown. By ensuring that all nations have a representative you effectively weaken the competition.

This is the central point to this debate. That's the basis on which the European Cup was set up.

That is what England and France want to change. If they were at least honest about this, then there might be some discussion. The principle of guaranteed representation for each country is directly linked to the one about each country deciding the method by which their teams are picked for their allocated spots.

England and France are indirectly proposing that every country should NOT get automatic inclusion by directly proposing to change the method by which teams are picked in the Pro 12. England and France are proposing that they should remain the same, and the Pro 12 should change its system to match theirs. And to reduce the number of teams participating.

This neatly avoids them having to confront the two founding principles of the Cup in the first place. And quietly downplay the fact that only England and France will continue to have automatic spots in a revised H Cup format, unlike any other founding or participating country. That's the point that I think the Pro 12 should focus on to hammer out a deal. If England and France want to be the only countries that have automatic spots in the competition, then they must pay a price. And the currency for trading should be the number of automatic places available.

A counter proposal from Pro 12 should be to seek a reduction in the number of teams from England and France to the Top 5 in their respective leagues, and that the top 8 in the Pro12 along with the two winners would also qualify. This would be a more equitable and meritorious solution to the abandonment of the twin founding principles. A top 8 in the Pro 12 would give each of the 4 countries involved a sporting chance to qualify. Last season, Treviso missed out by 2 points from a top 8 qualification. Within two years, I believe that they should be able to at least meet that target.

Feckless Rogue wrote:The funny thing is the English and French qualification rules are imposed on them by........ themselves. They could change it tomorrow if they wanted.

That leads me to suspect thet it is about money. And they're using the cover of "fairness" to try and get more money. It's an opportune time to do it because the Irish have dominated for 7 years. Obviously because it's not fair. Nothing to do with the fact that Leinster run better lines, pass more accurately than any English or French teams.

They want to cut the amount of teams. But they want to only cut teams from the 4 PRO12 countries. None from England or France. This conveniently means a bigger share of the money pot goes to English and French teams, without having to look at what's wrong with their own rugby set up. Their qualification rules, relegation, flogging players half to death etc.

The idea is to change absolutely nothing in their own faltering setup and force changes on their smaller financially weaker neighbours, under the threat of walking away (which could possibly collapse pro rugby in some nations). That's how I see it.

And I'm actually surprised real English rugby fans are on here agreeing with this stance. There's two things I would suggest.

1. Rather than cut the number of HC teams, expand it make it much easier for French and English teams to qualify. Why not make it a nice round 32. Eight groups of four. Group winner goes to quarter final. No extra HC weekends needed. This would mean 10 French and 10 English qualify. Much easier.

or

2. Go with the French/English plan, but share TV money equally between Amlin and HC teams. So the English gets their fairness in full. But Scottish and Italian teams avoid the danger of bankruptcy. And McCafferty doesn't get extra money for his teams. Would he go for it?

Feckless, that is exactly what I was thinking yesterday, I even posted it on here, this very thread, here is my thoughts on why they will not try and change their own setup though:-

In France and England the clubs have too much power. Their respective unions are scared to death of them as they are all owned by very wealthy businessmen and if they were to go to war with each other the unions would more than likley loose, as we saw with the London Welsh fiasco a few weeks ago, I bet my mortgage that the ERU and the FRU would love to be able to restructure their own leagues and unions in order to maximise the output and compete even more on an European and at the same time world stage, I would also wager that the English Rugby Union would love to reduce then no. of teams in the premiership and ring fence it, I would also argue that they would love to have a regional/provincional setup, but all the owners and fans would be so up in arms and it would be very costly as the power is with the clubs and they would not go down without a fight. So, if they cannot change their own structures surley it would be a lot easier to stick theor oars into other unions and force a change outside their own as it would be a loosing battle to force their own clubs to do what they wanted, the problem is there are to many money men in England and France who hold to much authority within their unions and as a result the unions will not do anything to upset them..

DaveM wrote:I wonder if the English and the French might throw the cat amongst the pigeons by inviting the Welsh regions to participate in a replacement for the HC. I'm not an expert on Welsh regional finances, but I suspect they are in serious trouble without HC income, and English - Welsh games appear to be of interest to both sets of fans.

The alternative of a Rabo cup is completely without commercial interest. And there's no way S15 sides will be jetting all over the world to play Conaught.

Dave, there is a lot of history between the Welsh and English rugby especially the club sides in and around the borders during the amature era, I know Cardiff and Gloucester have a long history and I remember as a youngster they always used to play a game on Boxing day, and a game in pre-season. This is perhaps the reason why there seems to be a lot of interest between the both sets of fans.

I know this is totally hypothetical but I would suspect that most Welsh rugby fans would have preferred a thriving Welsh league full of well supported traditional clubs with good facilities & old fashioned rivalry with proper local representation rather than the current mixed league.

That is what we have in England & most are happy with it.

We all realise that the leagues are totally different in make up & structure & the power brokers are different but I hope a compromise is reached.

I suspect that the French are even less likely to compromise given their priority of league over cup for many.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I know this is totally hypothetical but I would suspect that most Welsh rugby fans would have preferred a thriving Welsh league full of well supported traditional clubs with good facilities & old fashioned rivalry with proper local representation rather than the current mixed league.

That is what we have in England & most are happy with it.

We all realise that the leagues are totally different in make up & structure & the power brokers are different but I hope a compromise is reached.

I suspect that the French are even less likely to compromise given their priority of league over cup for many.

I disagree to an extent. The old system of club rugb was great in the amateur era but unsustainable in the professional era.

We are following the successful model for the rest of the worlds top professional nations, NZ, SA and Australia.

No one expects english or French rugby to change from the established teams, the transition would be far more difficult than it has been in Wales, if not impossible.

But the RFU and the FFR need to take more control of the game in their countries than they do. Both the AP and the Top 14 will become unsustainable in their current format and that is counter productive to their unions.

The Celtic nations are right to make a stand, they have been bending over backwards to accommodate France and in particular England in this European cup since the outset.

This will be the third time that England have not wished to play because the clubs owners aren't happy with the format and revenue.

The clubs know what they are likely to receive from the HEC or Amlin cup and should budget accordingly.

A couple of straws in the wind.

If the English push it too far the Celtic nations are considering approaching the Saffers concerning a tournament. The Saffers have previously been open to such an apporach.

Also they are aware that the English and French are not in complete agreement and those difference will be exploited.

We are not going to roll over on this one - I suspect the bottomline is 8 team minimum if a 20 team tournament and 9 team minimum if a 24 team tournament - with a guarantee of representation from all countries.

Interesting, geoff.

On the other hand, it would be good if SA sides went in with the English and French. That would be a great tournament!

maestegmafia wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I know this is totally hypothetical but I would suspect that most Welsh rugby fans would have preferred a thriving Welsh league full of well supported traditional clubs with good facilities & old fashioned rivalry with proper local representation rather than the current mixed league.

That is what we have in England & most are happy with it.

We all realise that the leagues are totally different in make up & structure & the power brokers are different but I hope a compromise is reached.

I suspect that the French are even less likely to compromise given their priority of league over cup for many.

I disagree to an extent. The old system of club rugb was great in the amateur era but unsustainable in the professional era.

We are following the successful model for the rest of the worlds top professional nations, NZ, SA and Australia.

No one expects english or French rugby to change from the established teams, the transition would be far more difficult than it has been in Wales, if not impossible.

But the RFU and the FFR need to take more control of the game in their countries than they do. Both the AP and the Top 14 will become unsustainable in their current format and that is counter productive to their unions.

The Celtic nations are right to make a stand, they have been bending over backwards to accommodate France and in particular England in this European cup since the outset.

This will be the third time that England have not wished to play because the clubs owners aren't happy with the format and revenue.

The clubs know what they are likely to receive from the HEC or Amlin cup and should budget accordingly.

Yes Maesteg, I understand Welsh club rugby was unsustainable in the pro era that is why I said hypothetical. But club rugby is a reality in England in France & cherished it is.
I don't believe it will be unsustainable & with proper cooperation between the RFU & club owners I think it will gradually grow. That is why it is important for clubs to look long term & have a solid base to start with.
I know a lot of English clubs are currently relying on rich benefactors but most of these are building for the future in a sustainable way.

Back to the subject in hand, I think a number of posters have come up with some good compromise solutions I hope the same happens next month.

Lets look at worst case sernario's

H-cup and Almin fold, English and French create Anglo-French cup.

What happens the development of Bucureşti Oaks and La Vila, Gernika and others that hoped to join in the Almin SC 1880 Frankfurt, Wild Rugby Academy, VVA-Podmoskovye Monino

Will they be invited to play in a Celtic Cup.

Would there be funding to make it a viable cup Comp?

Would the Celtic Nations stand firm, or after a few years if the Welsh regions were offered places in the English Prem, and to take part in Anglo-French cup, would they leave?

Without the H-cup could Pro12 sides really keep their best players, or would we see them moving to England and France?

BigTrev - The club structure in England and France is working, and I hope it continues to. That said do not rule out the posibility of it happening at some point down the line. After all it is business, and buyouts and mergers happen in the business world quite often.

Isn't this situation simply about two organisations each with different objectives trying to use the Heineken Cup to achieve different aims.

The clubs are each independant businesses trying to make the most money they can, a business doesn't care about the success of rivals unless it impacts on them. Therefore the English and French clubs are out to get as much as they can from the HC and they don't care about developing rugby in Italy or making sure it doesnt dissapear in Scotland or for that matter Wales (not that I think the HC is doing much for rugby in either of these countries as both now have lower number of fans attending games than before the HC started) .

The ERC is also a company out to make money but its interests are best served by expanding rugby into as many European countries as possible, they are interested in getting money from the total European fanbase and don't care how that money is split between the individual clubs. Their brand story says - ERC has one guiding ambition. To lead European club rugby to unparalleled levels of popularity and profile... Making a distinctive and significant contribution to the development and progression of rugby union.

As fans of rugby surely all of us on this forum should be behind the wider aims of the ERC rather than the narrow aims of clubs, wheter English /French or Scottish/Welsh......

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I know this is totally hypothetical but I would suspect that most Welsh rugby fans would have preferred a thriving Welsh league full of well supported traditional clubs with good facilities & old fashioned rivalry with proper local representation rather than the current mixed league.

That is what we have in England & most are happy with it.

We all realise that the leagues are totally different in make up & structure & the power brokers are different but I hope a compromise is reached.

I suspect that the French are even less likely to compromise given their priority of league over cup for many.

I disagree to an extent. The old system of club rugb was great in the amateur era but unsustainable in the professional era.

We are following the successful model for the rest of the worlds top professional nations, NZ, SA and Australia.

No one expects english or French rugby to change from the established teams, the transition would be far more difficult than it has been in Wales, if not impossible.

But the RFU and the FFR need to take more control of the game in their countries than they do. Both the AP and the Top 14 will become unsustainable in their current format and that is counter productive to their unions.

The Celtic nations are right to make a stand, they have been bending over backwards to accommodate France and in particular England in this European cup since the outset.

This will be the third time that England have not wished to play because the clubs owners aren't happy with the format and revenue.

The clubs know what they are likely to receive from the HEC or Amlin cup and should budget accordingly.

Yes Maesteg, I understand Welsh club rugby was unsustainable in the pro era that is why I said hypothetical. But club rugby is a reality in England in France & cherished it is.
I don't believe it will be unsustainable & with proper cooperation between the RFU & club owners I think it will gradually grow. That is why it is important for clubs to look long term & have a solid base to start with.
I know a lot of English clubs are currently relying on rich benefactors but most of these are building for the future in a sustainable way.

Back to the subject in hand, I think a number of posters have come up with some good compromise solutions I hope the same happens next month.

Trev

In England and France there are only two or three clubs that are sustainable, some others who's finances have been bolstered by selling Playing fields and property flatter to deceive...

It is not sustainable, the amount spent on wages arms races is crippling both leagues. Rugby is not a big enough game to be run in the same way professional soccer is.

Kingshu wrote:Would there be funding to make it a viable cup Comp?

I can't see why a Rabo Cup would not be a possiblity. There area non-english/french sponsors of the HEC, and also I assume the LV= and B&I cup would be ditched, freeing up ore people looking to sponsor a tournament. Also wouldn't the Spanish, Romains etc want to join in too. SO you could have the Euro-Cup as Rabo + Spain and Romanian, then Challenge-Cup as WElsh, IRish, Scottish, Italinan prems + Georgian sides (Or maybe a few lower international sides like Germany, Belgium etc).

Kingshu wrote:Would the Celtic Nations stand firm, or after a few years if the Welsh regions were offered places in the English Prem, and to take part in Anglo-French cup, would they leave?

I think the growth of the national side since the Rabo will keep the welsh in place. Also I think we would ditch the LV-= in order to retain the Rabo, HEC (watered down), Amlin (watered down) and the B&I Cup (watered down).

Kingshu wrote:Without the H-cup could Pro12 sides really keep their best players, or would we see them moving to England and France?

OR you could say would the English and French keep their best youngsters without them leaving to higher rated international sides, and a more varied club competition.

Kingshu

My ideal situation is 20 teams.

6 AP sides
6 Top 14 sides
8 Pro12 sides - top 2 Welsh,Top 2 Irish, 1 Italian,1 Scottish then the next top 2 in the league table.

Scarletspiderman with this system Edinburgh,Connacht,Zebre and Dragons would be in the Amlin which I think is fair.

Brendan I understand it's tough for Connacht to qualify for the HC on their own merit as things stand. They haven't been close though. The system I suggest would give them at least a fighting chance.

The WRU are happy to sell the Rabbo 12 to SKY after persistent offers from BSB. That would surely happen, unfortunately, if the English/French refuse to play in the HEC.

Depends what the aim is - to make it financially viable though you almost certanly would need to look at bringing in some outsiders.

For example Russian Rugby has money in it. The Japanese are cash rich too. I'm sure an untapped US market would also be viable options. Granted S15 rugby would be a stretch to far but I see no reason why a European Tournament could not benefit from outside invitational sides. That should leave enough money in the pot to cover bringing in other sides from Georgia, Romania,Spain etc. All the matches would obviously have to be played in Europe and it would almost certanly have to be played in a block to allow invitational teams to only travel once to Europe. But the TV coverage benefits alone could be massive and it also could lead to the S15 sides joining the tournament at a later date.

maestegmafia wrote:The WRU are happy to sell the Rabbo 12 to SKY after persistent offers from BSB. That would surely happen, unfortunately, if the English/French refuse to play in the HEC.

Whatever happens I certanly hope the WRU stick with the Rabbo and commit to it. It would be great if they could sell the TV rights to Sky as this would probably force the general public to go watch matches instead of being rather spoiled and being able to watch 2/3 matches a weekend without moving from the couch. Would certanly push up attendances. On the downside from a fan's point of view, you would be subjected to far less rugby if you cant afford sky sports.