French & English clubs position themselves for HEC debate

by BigTrevsbigmac Thu 23 Aug 2012, 5:43 am

First topic message reminder :

From the Grauniad,,

The leading clubs in the Aviva Premiership in England and Top 14 in France are ready to organise an alternative tournament to the Heineken Cup because they feel European rugby's premier club competition is weighted too heavily in favour of the Celtic nations.

Leinster and Munster have dominated the Heineken Cup in recent years, winning the trophy between them in five of the last seven seasons with Leinster champions three times in the last four tournaments.

Rivals in England and France believe the success of the Irish sides is largely because they are able to rest players regularly during the RaboDirect Pro 12 campaign as qualification for the following season's Heineken Cup is a virtual formality, something that is not the case in the Aviva Premiership and Top 14.

"Most of the Ireland squad will not be released for the Pro 12 until rounds three or four, something they could not do if they depended on their finishing position in the league for European qualification," said Mark McCafferty, the chief executive of Premiership Rugby. "The clubs in England and France have served two years' notice that we intend to pull out of Europe because there needs to be a level playing field.

"So far, the response from the other countries has been slow, even though we are not sabre-rattling. We have not been locked in talks and there is no meeting about the issue until the end of next month. Our view is that the qualification process needs to be changed so that it is entirely merit based – the top teams in all three leagues as well as the winners of the Heineken Cup and the Amlin Challenge Cup should make up 20 sides taking part."

The English and French clubs want to ration the Pro 12 involvement to the top six teams in the league, which would run a risk of Scotland and Italy, whose teams currently qualify automatically, not being involved in a Heineken Cup campaign.

"I think those countries have effectively made that decision by forming the Pro 12," said McCafferty. "It is like me saying that the Premiership has to provide a qualifier from the south-west. It cannot be good for the competition that you do not have the best sides qualifying. Aironi were disbanded at the end of the last season and the newly formed Zebres go straight into the Heineken Cup.

"Are the Italian teams ready for the Heineken Cup given their record? It is all put into perspective when some really big names are not involved and the system plays a role in the way Leinster and Munster have dominated the competition in recent years. European Rugby Cup Ltd is dragging its heels and I cannot understand it."

McCafferty acknowledged that the two sides were approaching the problem from different directions. "Some 80% of our business is the Aviva Premiership," he went on. "It is what drives our revenue and gates. I understand the Pro 12 model is different, but we cannot damage our core competition for 20% [the Heineken Cup]. ERC should know that we are serious and while the issue has to be resolved, everyone has to realise we cannot carry on as we are. If it is not, we would go to an Anglo-French competition and if others wanted to join us, fair enough.

"I feel for the Welsh regions because they are caught in the middle. They have financial issues and you cannot build a business on three home games. Ireland have a central system with the union funding everything apart from the overseas players. Wales are reliant on private money largely and they need a business with 15 home fixtures. I think changing the qualification for Europe would strengthen the RaboDirect."

by **rodders** Fri 24 Aug 2012, 10:18 am

It's a right old mess. I think if the French and English clubs insist on changing the RABO teams HEC qualification then that will be the beginning of the end for that league.

The Irish sides have more financial clout that the other sides and would be least impacted I think if only the top 6 sides qualified. Longer term the Welsh and Scottish teams may struggle a bit and the Italians would lose out altogether.

I just can't see the Rabo unions agreeing to change their set up so dramatically. It would be like turkeys voting for xmas.

I don't really see how this can be resolved to the satisfaction of all parties so this really could be the end of the HEC unfortunately.

by maestegmafia Fri 24 Aug 2012, 10:21 am

Welshmushroom wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:The WRU are happy to sell the Rabbo 12 to SKY after persistent offers from BSB. That would surely happen, unfortunately, if the English/French refuse to play in the HEC.

Whatever happens I certanly hope the WRU stick with the Rabbo and commit to it. It would be great if they could sell the TV rights to Sky as this would probably force the general public to go watch matches instead of being rather spoiled and being able to watch 2/3 matches a weekend without moving from the couch. Would certanly push up attendances. On the downside from a fan's point of view, you would be subjected to far less rugby if you cant afford sky sports.

I agree with your point that sky's financial in accessibility might increase crowds. And the Influx of cash would be welcome should there be no HEC.

by beshocked Fri 24 Aug 2012, 10:29 am

Rodders what's wrong with the Rabo having 8 sides in the HC?

The likes of Zebre,Connacht and Dragons are more suited to the Amlin as it stands till they prove otherwise.

It would make the Pro12 a more competitive league because there would be their HC places on the line. 8 HC places is still a lot. One Italian and Scottish side would be protected with the other having to get their spot on merit.

The French sides wouldn't get off scot free though. I would look to punish the likes of Castres and Montpellier if they decide not to take the HC seriously. Why should they play in the HC if they aren't going to try?

by Welshmushroom Fri 24 Aug 2012, 10:36 am

In principle there is nothing wrong with your suggestion beshocked.

However the system they are looking to bring in is have a equal sharing pot of cash and voting rights between the 3 leagues. That is an issue in its own right and one that sadly has little to do with rugby. Of course the Rabbo sides cannot aggree to this because in the long run this will keep manifesting itself as French and English clubs look to keep a greater split of the spoils. How long for example before they suggest a decrease to 6/4/3 from the Rabbo for whatever trend reason seems to be in that year?

by Kingshu Fri 24 Aug 2012, 10:37 am

Could a Celtic/SA cup competation, bring in as much money as the current H-cup to teams or at least the same amount that an Anglo/French cup does for their teams?

I think SA uses a Rainbow cup to neogatate with SANZAR, and the Celtic league teams will use it the same way against the French and English.

I would hope that its SA's Super teams as playing their second tier would be a bit insulting, our best are only up to their second Teir.

I'd even agree to just the top 6 pro 12 teams, v the 6 SA superrugby teams.

by geoff998rugby Fri 24 Aug 2012, 10:38 am

beshocked wrote:Kingshu

My ideal situation is 20 teams.

6 AP sides
6 Top 14 sides
8 Pro12 sides - top 2 Welsh,Top 2 Irish, 1 Italian,1 Scottish then the next top 2 in the league table.

Scarletspiderman with this system Edinburgh,Connacht,Zebre and Dragons would be in the Amlin which I think is fair.

Brendan I understand it's tough for Connacht to qualify for the HC on their own merit as things stand. They haven't been close though. The system I suggest would give them at least a fighting chance.

When all the blustering dies down this is exactly what I expect will happen.
The only variation could be the winners of the HC are guaranteed selection for the next year regardless of league position - but that would be down to the individual unions.

by **rodders** Fri 24 Aug 2012, 10:38 am

Edit: Sorry just reread Beshocked and Geoffs posts. Yes that is plausible I suppose.

by maestegmafia Fri 24 Aug 2012, 10:39 am

beshocked wrote:Rodders what's wrong with the Rabo having 8 sides in the HC?

The likes of Zebre,Connacht and Dragons are more suited to the Amlin as it stands till they prove otherwise.

It would make the Pro12 a more competitive league because there would be their HC places on the line. 8 HC places is still a lot. One Italian and Scottish side would be protected with the other having to get their spot on merit.

The French sides wouldn't get off scot free though. I would look to punish the likes of Castres and Montpellier if they decide not to take the HC seriously. Why should they play in the HC if they aren't going to try?

BS

I agree with you. I would like to see more competition for places in the HEC. I agree that the weaker sides would benefit more playing teams of a similar standard and financial standing.

But I don't think adding more, weaker English and French Amlin level teams will make the HEC any more competitive.

Make the HEC smaller, more competitive and more exclusive is my conclusion to this debate, unless good reasoning persuades the argument otherwise.

by Welshmushroom Fri 24 Aug 2012, 10:41 am

Also beschocked, sorry to have to correct you hear but ive lost count how many times English sides have fielded weakened teams after the second round when there interest has been ended.

At least our Welsh sides for example cart out our star names regardless if we have won/lost matches in the HC. Sale for example did this a couple of season ago with the coach even stating that he had the league to consider. Phil Davies at the Scarlets on the other hand (despite losing all 6 matches) made sure all the stars he had available played throughout the tournament. Dragons (my team) always cart out our best side in the HC.

The Rabbo sides tend to look at the HC as a improve yourself team, whereas historically English & French sides quickly turn their attention back to the league.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Fri 24 Aug 2012, 10:46 am

maestegmafia wrote:
beshocked wrote:Rodders what's wrong with the Rabo having 8 sides in the HC?

The likes of Zebre,Connacht and Dragons are more suited to the Amlin as it stands till they prove otherwise.

It would make the Pro12 a more competitive league because there would be their HC places on the line. 8 HC places is still a lot. One Italian and Scottish side would be protected with the other having to get their spot on merit.

The French sides wouldn't get off scot free though. I would look to punish the likes of Castres and Montpellier if they decide not to take the HC seriously. Why should they play in the HC if they aren't going to try?

BS

I agree with you. I would like to see more competition for places in the HEC. I agree that the weaker sides would benefit more playing teams of a similar standard and financial standing.

But I don't think adding more, weaker English and French Amlin level teams will make the HEC any more competitive.

Make the HEC smaller, more competitive and more exclusive is my conclusion to this debate, unless good reasoning persuades the argument otherwise.

Maes, a smaller comp suits the French too - they want less games to free up space for a Top 16 rather than a Top 14. Ultimately what the English and French have suggested is their "ideal - they'll have points they're willing to concede on, and will be expecting to concede something at the negotiating table.

by maestegmafia Fri 24 Aug 2012, 10:57 am

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
beshocked wrote:Rodders what's wrong with the Rabo having 8 sides in the HC?

The likes of Zebre,Connacht and Dragons are more suited to the Amlin as it stands till they prove otherwise.

It would make the Pro12 a more competitive league because there would be their HC places on the line. 8 HC places is still a lot. One Italian and Scottish side would be protected with the other having to get their spot on merit.

The French sides wouldn't get off scot free though. I would look to punish the likes of Castres and Montpellier if they decide not to take the HC seriously. Why should they play in the HC if they aren't going to try?

BS

I agree with you. I would like to see more competition for places in the HEC. I agree that the weaker sides would benefit more playing teams of a similar standard and financial standing.

But I don't think adding more, weaker English and French Amlin level teams will make the HEC any more competitive.

Make the HEC smaller, more competitive and more exclusive is my conclusion to this debate, unless good reasoning persuades the argument otherwise.

Maes, a smaller comp suits the French too - they want less games to free up space for a Top 16 rather than a Top 14. Ultimately what the English and French have suggested is their "ideal - they'll have points they're willing to concede on, and will be expecting to concede something at the negotiating table.

I think a smaller comp suits fans too. Tougher game and harder to win.

The biggest issue is the negotiating table, and bringing all unions to it...!!!

I understand the stance the celts are taking here as they have been endlessly mucked about throughout this clubs history by the English and French. Though this only comes to a head when the English or French are not dominant.

by Kingshu Fri 24 Aug 2012, 10:57 am

I don'tlike the smaller comp Idea, as the same teams would keep on getting through and it creates a finicial gap in the league between regular h-cup teams and almin teams that each year gets harder to bridge.

To be honest this doesn't really apply to RABO teams as much as the Union recieves the H-cup money and devides it out, this mean that over time the Pro 12 will remain a more competative league from top to bottom, Rather than the club model where you end up with haves and have nots.

by Irish Londoner Fri 24 Aug 2012, 11:24 am

Would there be a scenario whereby if the English and French go it alone and the HEC collapses, then the other three home nations would eventually join the Englisih in some form of "British Isles" league you'd be adding 10 teams to the 12 in the Jeff but with no HEC (and maybe scrapping the B & I/LV Cups) there'd be plenty of space for games.
Or go for a two tier top level of 14 each by bringing in a couple of Championship teams and/or new Regions (Scottish Borders/Welsh Valleys)
I assume that the Top 14/16 would presumably go on their merry way and the poor Italians would end up frozen out but I bet that the TV people would love it.

by maestegmafia Fri 24 Aug 2012, 11:39 am

Kingshu wrote:I don'tlike the smaller comp Idea, as the same teams would keep on getting through and it creates a finicial gap in the league between regular h-cup teams and almin teams that each year gets harder to bridge.

To be honest this doesn't really apply to RABO teams as much as the Union recieves the H-cup money and devides it out, this mean that over time the Pro 12 will remain a more competative league from top to bottom, Rather than the club model where you end up with haves and have nots.

How is the money divided up in England then?

Surely that is the issue, as stated above by numerous non English posters, and not the competition itself, which seems to be better and better every year....!

Also I think it is unfaire to blame the RFU. They are not part of this squabble for cash, unsurprisingly it is lead by McCafferty and the PRL.

by ScarletSpiderman Fri 24 Aug 2012, 11:48 am

maestegmafia wrote:The WRU are happy to sell the Rabbo 12 to SKY after persistent offers from BSB. That would surely happen, unfortunately, if the English/French refuse to play in the HEC.

Ain't the beeb pulling the SCrum V Live programme due to trying to commit ot HD programming?

by maestegmafia Fri 24 Aug 2012, 11:55 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:The WRU are happy to sell the Rabbo 12 to SKY after persistent offers from BSB. That would surely happen, unfortunately, if the English/French refuse to play in the HEC.

Ain't the beeb pulling the SCrum V Live programme due to trying to commit ot HD programming?

Not 100% sure but there is a debate about various regional programming that is unsyndicatable being canceled.

Not immediate though.

Welsh rugby will be on sky and s4c within four years, probably sooner.

by greenandpleasantland Fri 24 Aug 2012, 12:32 pm

Have just seen on Sky, ESPN and some other sites that the French have given ERC 3 months as a deadline to get an agreement together.

by BigTrevsbigmac Fri 24 Aug 2012, 12:39 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I know this is totally hypothetical but I would suspect that most Welsh rugby fans would have preferred a thriving Welsh league full of well supported traditional clubs with good facilities & old fashioned rivalry with proper local representation rather than the current mixed league.

That is what we have in England & most are happy with it.

We all realise that the leagues are totally different in make up & structure & the power brokers are different but I hope a compromise is reached.

I suspect that the French are even less likely to compromise given their priority of league over cup for many.

I disagree to an extent. The old system of club rugb was great in the amateur era but unsustainable in the professional era.

We are following the successful model for the rest of the worlds top professional nations, NZ, SA and Australia.

No one expects english or French rugby to change from the established teams, the transition would be far more difficult than it has been in Wales, if not impossible.

But the RFU and the FFR need to take more control of the game in their countries than they do. Both the AP and the Top 14 will become unsustainable in their current format and that is counter productive to their unions.

The Celtic nations are right to make a stand, they have been bending over backwards to accommodate France and in particular England in this European cup since the outset.

This will be the third time that England have not wished to play because the clubs owners aren't happy with the format and revenue.

The clubs know what they are likely to receive from the HEC or Amlin cup and should budget accordingly.

Yes Maesteg, I understand Welsh club rugby was unsustainable in the pro era that is why I said hypothetical. But club rugby is a reality in England in France & cherished it is.
I don't believe it will be unsustainable & with proper cooperation between the RFU & club owners I think it will gradually grow. That is why it is important for clubs to look long term & have a solid base to start with.
I know a lot of English clubs are currently relying on rich benefactors but most of these are building for the future in a sustainable way.

Back to the subject in hand, I think a number of posters have come up with some good compromise solutions I hope the same happens next month.

Trev

In England and France there are only two or three clubs that are sustainable, some others who's finances have been bolstered by selling Playing fields and property flatter to deceive...

It is not sustainable, the amount spent on wages arms races is crippling both leagues. Rugby is not a big enough game to be run in the same way professional soccer is.

Maes,

I think there is a difference between clubs that are currently making a profit and clubs that are sustainable for the future.
This seasonn Sarries will have their own ground and in a couple of years or so so will Wasps (fingers crossed) these are businesses that are moving in the right direction & I believe & hope are evidence of sustainability.

by maestegmafia Fri 24 Aug 2012, 12:40 pm

The FFR need to grow some cajones...! As do the RFU.

by maestegmafia Fri 24 Aug 2012, 12:50 pm

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
I think there is a difference between clubs that are currently making a profit and clubs that are sustainable for the future.
This seasonn Sarries will have their own ground and in a couple of years or so so will Wasps (fingers crossed) these are businesses that are moving in the right direction & I believe & hope are evidence of sustainability.

This is great news.

But if the English want to really have a club rugby sytem based on competitivness due to the real threat of relegation then much more has to be done to create an even financial playing field. Same in France.

Too big a divide between the haves and have nots

by Brendan Fri 24 Aug 2012, 1:19 pm

http://www1.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12332/8014564/French-clubs-issue-ultimatum

The French clubs are looking what to do with the dates. I think they might be more inclinded to go for a top 16/18 than an anglo cup

by geoff998rugby Fri 24 Aug 2012, 1:32 pm

What is interesting about that is the French are saying at least 1 Scottish and 1 Italian team must play in the Amlin (as well as 1 Welsh and 1 Irish).

Now to be brutally honest these are the 2 countries least important in terms of generating income. If we go the 6-6-8 split could the Welsh and Irish say "if we get 3 places each we can agree to that".
Leaves the Scottish and Italians with little choice but to accept.

Not saying its right but it could happen.

by greenandpleasantland Fri 24 Aug 2012, 1:34 pm

The French domestic league seems to be well supported, it looks to me that they would rather concentrate on that than a cross-border competition. Although if the French clubs and English clubs aare arguing this together they must surely have some idea of a competition between the two of them if they leave the HC.

by geoff998rugby Fri 24 Aug 2012, 1:34 pm

Brendan wrote:http://www1.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12332/8014564/French-clubs-issue-ultimatum

The French clubs are looking what to do with the dates. I think they might be more inclinded to go for a top 16/18 than an anglo cup

I agree with that - the HC is less critical to the French than the English and a restructuring of the French set up is more likely than an Anglo-French Cup.

by Brendan Fri 24 Aug 2012, 1:41 pm

The other problem with the anglo french cup is who would ref. Having afrench speaking ref would be seen as important for the french so their would be to many problems.

Also would you have all of the top flight teams or just the top 12 leaving two french clubs iwth nothing. surely the french would want an improvement of teams and not stuck with only 12 of their 14 in the cup.

All we can say is if there is an anglo-welsh cup it really will become a power struggle between clubs and the French have more muscle.

by HammerofThunor Fri 24 Aug 2012, 1:46 pm

I'm sure the French will look at every option if the negotiations fall down (Roger Lewis has said that now is the right time to negotiate the future of the European Cups). At least it will hopefully sorted soon-ish.

by Guest Fri 24 Aug 2012, 1:51 pm

As it currently stands the English clubs make more money out if the LV cup than the HEC and if some Unions choose to abandon their domestic leagues, they cannot expect to still get the same rights when they just put forward two teams packed with their internationals.

It is the 12 Anglo/french teams that make up the bulk of the competition and make it commercially viable. They requested a greater share last time but backed down, this time they are far more serious, which is why the other Unions are avoiding any contact and consequently the French have now requested a 3 month deadline from the ERC. At least this way a decision will (may) be reached rather than dragging it out over the season and this years HC competition.

by Kingshu Fri 24 Aug 2012, 1:52 pm

From http://www1.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12332/8014564/French-clubs-issue-ultimatum

Patrick Wolff says

"The Amlin Challenge Cup must have teams from all stakeholders because at the moment it is a useless competition just concerning English and French clubs," he said.

Doesn't sound like he's to keen on an Anglo-French Cup.

Think France would say we'er having a top 18, and England lose out as well!

You know this wouldn't have happened to the SRU if they had keep the Boarders, as it meant they would have alway had one team in the Almin,

Looks like with scrapping the boarders they also scraped an auto H-cup spot!

by Jenifer McLadyboy Fri 24 Aug 2012, 1:54 pm

OK. Ignoring the fact that it's all about money and If we just gave more to the French and English clubs they would shut up.

Presumably the reduction to 20 teams is about making the Amlin stronger.

So would 4 teams drop out of that? Leaving the total of 20 each for both comps?

Who knows?

I would favour staying at 24 teams with the English and French getting an extra one each and the other 4 unions losing 2

The 4 unions could have 1 each with the other 4 decided by placings in the Rabo.

So looking at last year's table.....
Leinster, Ospreys, Glasgow and Treviso would qualify as the 4 countries teams, with Munster, Scarlets Ulster and Cardiff going in as the next 4.

Beshocked's old favourites Connacht would still get in because Leinster won the HC. (and the other 2 provinces had already qualified)

Biarritz would still get in because they won the Amlin.

Embra and Zebre would be replaced by Stade Francais and London Irish.

Anyone Happy? (Besides Embra fans)

by Jenifer McLadyboy Fri 24 Aug 2012, 2:00 pm

"We also believe it would be interesting - even for the Celts - if the RaboDirect teams have to qualify like the English and French clubs do. We believe that would give more momentum to their competition"

I actually agree with this. We can't very well have relegation as where would you promote from or relegate to?

A bit of an incentive to qualify could make a league which has come on enormously in the last 5 years even better

by Kingshu Fri 24 Aug 2012, 2:14 pm

I actually don't mind the 8 qualifies one per nation and the rest by position.

I actually think its really only the Scots and Italians that will lose out, and to be fair we're all said they should get two auto spots for two teams every year.

"The Aviva Premiership and Top 14 maintain that the RaboDirect Pro12 teams who gain automatic qualification into the competition are given an unfair advantage."

So its only the SRU and FIR, qualificaton they want to change.

I blame the SRU for all this, It's Edinburgh beating Toulouse thats annoyed the French (esp when Edinburgh finished 2 bottom in the Leaue and still get in the H-cup) and not entering any teams into the Almin.

If the SRU had kept the Boarders then at least they might have finished above Edinburgh, or at least have a team in Almin every year. I think as said earlier that when the SRU ended the boarders, they also ended thier 2 automatic Hcups spots.

Think thats its fairer to give the SRU and FIR only one automatic spot each, or else have them enter an extra team into the Pro 12 each?

Can't blame Italy and the FIR as they are only setting out and can't yet finance 3 teams, but one playing in the Almin rather than super 10 clubs would be better for them as well.

by maestegmafia Fri 24 Aug 2012, 2:40 pm

If the number of Rabbo teams were reduced to add more French and English surely they should be allowed a play off with bottom French and eng vs Rabbo 1scot, 1welsh, 1irish and 1italian...??

Fair is fair.

by Brendan Fri 24 Aug 2012, 2:45 pm

Kingshu there was talk of them putting in a representive team from the Super 10 as some of the super ten teams sent out second string teams and got beat home and away by the romanians.

I am sure scotland could do the same and that way there would not be the problems. Really I think that it will end with 8 Rabo teams and five of the others with the 2 winners capped as it is now with only one extra place per league

by Kingshu Fri 24 Aug 2012, 3:15 pm

I thought that the problem was that the Italians were entering super 10 teams in the Almin, and regions in Hcup, but the WRU aren't allowed to do this (with Welsh Prem teams) and neither are the SRU. As it could lead to teams dropping from H-cup to almin after the group stage and you could end up with Cardiff Blues V Cardiff RFC and things like that.

FIR was told it would need to enter regions into Almin so prevent it meeting feeder clubs.

Looks like the current issue is the SRU and FIR, rather than the Irish winning it and the so called resting players, but I think this is just one of the issues.

Also I like the way Wolff says

"We also believe it would be interesting - even for the Celts - if the RaboDirect teams have to qualify like the English and French clubs do. We believe that would give more momentum to their competition"

I'd love a Celtic league rep to respond by saying that
"We also believe that the Prem and Top 14 would be more intresting - even for the French and English- if they are ringfenced like the Rabo league is. We believe that would give lower teams more chance to make longer term plans and improve their competition and hence European competition"

and see how long it takes the EPL and top14 to tell him to not interfer with thier leagues.

by JayMaster3000 Fri 24 Aug 2012, 3:42 pm

To be honest I like the suggestions that the English and French are making. As an Ulster fan I am aware of the pros and cons that a change to the European format could make to my team, but I am also aware of the many benefits that these changes could have on the Celtic League and wider European rugby.

If the Italians don't get in, I feel that Treviso are strong enough to challenge, if not win the Amlin, and gain H-Cup rugby the year after. It would create interest for fans and sponsors in Italy. Not to mention it could give teams like Edinburgh and Glasgow, who are classy outfits, the chance to take home some real silver wear!

Without even going into the advantages for the suggested expansion of the Amlin for Russia, Georgia and the likes, think about how much better the Celtic league would be if qualifying was enforced! We would have a league that could rival Super Rugby!

I'll see what they bring to the table in September but from what I've heard so far, I like it.

by HammerofThunor Fri 24 Aug 2012, 3:47 pm

The PRL generally WANT to ring fence the Premiership. The RFU don't want to and have the final say. The RFU aren't the ones asking for change.

I don't understand your point?

by Jenifer McLadyboy Fri 24 Aug 2012, 4:19 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:

I don't understand your point?

That nobody likes to be told what to do by an outsider

by Feckless Rogue Fri 24 Aug 2012, 4:38 pm

The whole point of the HC is that it gives the best teams in all 6 Nations competition against the best teams from the other nations. That's why it was set up. For the benefit of all 6 unions who have a stake in the erc.

Now I understand the merits of the proposals and how they could make the PRO12 more competitive. But the main danger of the English/French proposals are that both Italian teams would drop down to the Amlin. This would mean less money, less ability to keep their best players making it even harder to qualify for the HC and condemn them to disappear permanently into the Amlin.

Either the Scottish and Italians should be guaranteed 1 HC spot each. Or they should be guaranteed a share of the HC money no matter what, so that at least they'd have the financial means to build a better side and return to the top tier tournament.

We don't want to create entrenched haves and have nots in rugby like they have in soccer.

Treviso and both Scottish sides have improved in recent years. Welsh and Irish rugby have advanced beyond recognition from the dark days of the 90's. Under the French/English plan the improvements in Italy or Scotland could be undone. If the threat to leave is followed through they could financially ruin Welsh pro rugby and seriously dent the Irish finances and undo a decade of good work, as the richer giants strip the smaller nations of their playing talent. That's the worst case scenario.

So I can't see the PRO12 nations completely giving in to all these demands. But I can see them agreeing a compromise because the French/English threat would have such dire consequences.

by BigTrevsbigmac Fri 24 Aug 2012, 4:38 pm

From Sky,

France's Top 14 clubs have demanded an autumn deadline for a resolution to the Heineken Cup restructuring row before they explore 'alternative options'.

England's clubs have already threatened to form a breakaway tournament with their French counterparts unless changes to the qualification process are made.

And now Patrick Wolff, vice president of the French National Rugby League, which runs the Top 14, has waded into the situation and laid down an ultimatum of three months to reach an agreement.

The Aviva Premiership and Top 14 maintain that the RaboDirect Pro12 teams who gain automatic qualification into the competition are given an unfair advantage.

ERC stakeholders are scheduled to meet in Dublin on September 18 to begin talks over what format the competition should take when the current agreement ends in 2014.

Boycott

"The talks will begin on September 18 when the French clubs will ask for certain changes to the organisation and schedule of the competition," said Wolff.

"This is a platform to negotiate, it's not about exerting pressure for a boycott or forming a new competition.

"We must give negotiation a chance because the competition is more interesting with the Celts involved. We expect to find a common understanding with all the stakeholders.

"If the negotiations fail, we will see what our alternative options are. What's important for us is that these negotiations are completed by the end of autumn.

"We must have something agreed by October or November. If we don't we'll have to look at how the nine dates set aside for European competition can be used in other ways."
Patrick Wolff
Quotes of the week
"This schedule is very important for us - we must have something agreed by October or November.

"If we don't we'll have to look at how the nine dates set aside for European competition can be used in other ways."

Useless

Wolff outlined the demands that will be made by the French clubs during the meeting on September 18.

"The Amlin Challenge Cup must have teams from all stakeholders because at the moment it is a useless competition just concerning English and French clubs," he said.

"We want a decent schedule to the season whereby European competition will be finished by the end of April.

"We also believe it would be interesting - even for the Celts - if the RaboDirect teams have to qualify like the English and French clubs do. We believe that would give more momentum to their competition.

"Our thoughts have already been transmitted to ERC and the stakeholders and will form the basis for negotiations on September 18."

Not much respect for the Amlin then?

by Guest Fri 24 Aug 2012, 4:41 pm

Trouble is that those outsiders currently make up half the competition to make it commercially viable but only get a third of the funds, so effectively pay a significant slug of R12 costs and they have had enough. Nothing personal, simply good business.

by Feckless Rogue Fri 24 Aug 2012, 4:44 pm

The Amlin is like the Europa League in soccer. It's 2nd tier. And no amount of renaming or relaunching or re-branding will suddenly make it hugely popular.

That's why I'd be more enclined to expand the HC to 32, than reduce it to 20. Get more teams into the main event.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Fri 24 Aug 2012, 4:52 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:"We also believe it would be interesting - even for the Celts - if the RaboDirect teams have to qualify like the English and French clubs do. We believe that would give more momentum to their competition"

I actually agree with this. We can't very well have relegation as where would you promote from or relegate to?

A bit of an incentive to qualify could make a league which has come on enormously in the last 5 years even better

Kingshu wrote:
Also I like the way Wolff says

"We also believe it would be interesting - even for the Celts - if the RaboDirect teams have to qualify like the English and French clubs do. We believe that would give more momentum to their competition"

I'd love a Celtic league rep to respond by saying that
"We also believe that the Prem and Top 14 would be more intresting - even for the French and English- if they are ringfenced like the Rabo league is. We believe that would give lower teams more chance to make longer term plans and improve their competition and hence European competition"

and see how long it takes the EPL and top14 to tell him to not interfer with thier leagues.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:

I don't understand your point?

That nobody likes to be told what to do by an outsider

Recwatcher wrote:Trouble is that those outsiders currently make up half the competition to make it commercially viable but only get a third of the funds, so effectively pay a significant slug of R12 costs and they have had enough. Nothing personal, simply good business.

As I said above, I agree that it would be good for the Rabbo. I was just answering the question (on Kingshu's behalf) posed by Hammer

by DaveM Fri 24 Aug 2012, 4:57 pm

Whilst I'm sure the English and French would like more money I don't think that is the key issue for them, nor do I think they want more HEC places, I think they feel the current system is genuinely unfair. The fact they have such financial clout just means they can force changes.

I don't think anyone really wants the HEC to end, so I expect a compromise, but one that sees the English and French getting a lot of what they want, including qualification through league position in the Rabo and a smaller HEC. As has been pointed out by various people such a decision really will help the Rabo - the AP is often exciting right to the end of the season as clubs fight for the last HEC positions.

by gowales Fri 24 Aug 2012, 6:05 pm

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

"The Amlin Challenge Cup must have teams from all stakeholders because at the moment it is a useless competition just concerning English and French clubs," he said.

"We want a decent schedule to the season whereby European competition will be finished by the end of April.

"We also believe it would be interesting - even for the Celts - if the RaboDirect teams have to qualify like the English and French clubs do. We believe that would give more momentum to their competition.

"Our thoughts have already been transmitted to ERC and the stakeholders and will form the basis for negotiations on September 18."

Not much respect for the Amlin then?

Well let's be honest it is a bit of a joke competition at the moment and hardly a European comp. Usually contest by the English or the French, sometimes a token Welsh team. The Spanish, Italian and Romanian club sides simply aren't good enough and will never make it past the pool stages anytime soon.

by maestegmafia Fri 24 Aug 2012, 6:13 pm

The reports read as though the French Clubs organising body and the PRL want different things, the French certainly don't sound like they want an Anglo/French league.

French ideas actually sound positive for the future.

The PRL sound like they are just trying to get more cash for their club owners.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri 24 Aug 2012, 6:41 pm

maestegmafia wrote:The reports read as though the French Clubs organising body and the PRL want different things, the French certainly don't sound like they want an Anglo/French league.

French ideas actually sound positive for the future.

The PRL sound like they are just trying to get more cash for their club owners.

I see it a little differently;

The French want more money by having more league games and less HC games per team, plus more French teams in (and better supported opposition). The English just want more teams in.

The Amlin is and always will be a joke. Expanding the HC wont help the French with their big issue, they make less money form HC games than they do domestic leagie ones...and b because only a few of the top teams are in it they have dead weekends (or pointless Amlin games) for the rest. From a purely financial perspective the owners would be happier with almost no HC games and a T18. But most people involved genuinely do see that a European cup is important from a sporting perspective and want one. The Franglo cup is only being mooted as a fallback by English, noone actually wants it.

by Feckless Rogue Fri 24 Aug 2012, 6:57 pm

I think the French guy just worded his statement more diplomatically. McCafferty came across more bullish and threatening which didn't go down well. They want the same thing.

They want less PRO12 teams and the same number of English and French teams, which conveniently means more money for them. They also want it to be more difficult for PRO12 teams to qualify, which they hope will make the PRO12 sides flog their players as hard as the English and French do.

On the first point, they're tearing down the founding principal of the HC. Top level cross border competition for all 6 nations. On the 2nd point I don't think they'll get the outcome they want. I don't think the IRFU or the other unions will change their player management rules. They're there for a reason. To protect player welfare.

Just because the French flog their players half to death with 40 games a year doesn't mean we should too to make it fairer. Here's an idea. Why don't the French protect their players and limit their game time the way we do. Because lets be honest. Their current league is the most boring, drop goal infested man-up-athon in European rugby. And we can already see the erosion of French flair in the national side.

by Morgannwg Fri 24 Aug 2012, 8:06 pm

France - 6 teams
England - 6 teams
Ireland - 3/4 teams
Wales - 3/4 teams
Scotland - 2 teams
Italy - 2 teams

So isn't it Wales, Ireland and Scotland who are at an unfair disadvantage?

Feckless Rogue wrote:
Just because the French flog their players half to death with 40 games a year doesn't mean we should too to make it fairer. Here's an idea. Why don't the French protect their players and limit their game time the way we do. Because lets be honest. Their current league is the most boring, drop goal infested man-up-athon in European rugby. And we can already see the erosion of French flair in the national side.

Nice.

by maestegmafia Fri 24 Aug 2012, 9:28 pm

McCafferty of the PRL in England on Welsh Regional Rugby wrote:“I feel for the Welsh regions because they are caught in the middle.

“They have financial issues and you cannot build a business on three home games.

“Ireland have a central system with the union funding everything apart from the overseas players.

“Wales are reliant on private money largely and they need a business with 15 home fixtures.

“I think changing the qualification for Europe would strengthen the RaboDirect.”

by maestegmafia Fri 24 Aug 2012, 9:30 pm

RaboDirect Pro12 chief executive John Feehan wrote:

“I don’t think we should change our product because somebody from outside tells us to,”

“I understand their complaints, but those are issues for the English and French to deal with domestically.

“The fact that you can rotate your squad through a season means you end up with better quality rugby at the end of the day.

“We have 22 rounds which is a hell of a lot of rugby and we need to rotate squads to have quality throughout, and that’s what we will continue doing.”

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