England v SA - KO 14:30 Sat 24th NOV at HQ - Match Thread/Build Up etc....

[HERSH]

First topic message reminder :

Feel free to discuss this game and any other aspect involving the England Rugby team good or bad as your opinions count and you won't be judged (by me) if you go against England, but do try to give a reason!

Please respect other posters opinions

Game 1: Eng v Fiji 54-12 World class performance.
Game 2: Eng v Aus 14-20 We was robbed, by ourselves.
Game 3: Eng v SA ??-??
Game 4: Eng v NZ ??-??

England team to face South Africa:

Alex Goode (Saracens, 4 caps);
Chris Ashton (Saracens, 27 caps),
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 15 caps),
Brad Barritt (Saracens, 9 caps),
Mike Brown (Harlequins, 9 caps);
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 52 caps),
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps);
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish, 16 caps),
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 2 caps),
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 33 caps),
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 2 caps),
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 10 caps),
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 11 caps),
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 10 caps),
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 7 caps).

Replacements: David Paice (London Irish, 4 caps), David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 21 caps), Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 2 caps), Mouritz Botha (Saracens, 9 caps), James Haskell (London Wasps, 43 caps), Danny Care (Harlequins, 35 caps), Owen Farrell (Saracens, 10 caps), Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 3 caps).


South Africa team:
Z Kirchner (Blue Bulls);
JP Pietersen (Sharks),
J de Jongh (Western Province),
J de Villiers (Western Province, captain),
F Hougaard (Blue Bulls);
P Lambie (Sharks),
R Pienaar (Ulster);
G Steenkamp (Toulouse),
A Strauss (Cheetahs),
J du Plessis (Sharks),
E Etzebeth (Western Province),
J Kruger (Blue Bulls),
F Louw (Bath),
W Alberts (Sharks),
D Vermeulen (Western Province).

Replacements: S Brits (Saracens), H van der Merwe (Leinster), P Cilliers (Western Province), F van der Merwe (Blue Bulls), M Coetzee (Sharks), E Jantjies (Golden Lions), J Taute (Golden Lions), L Mvovo (Sharks).

[bluestonevedder]

Is Fearns that good? I've not seen a huge amount of him. Lancaster's also a fan of Calum Clark, though we don't yet know how far back his ban will set him in the coaches' minds.

The other possibility of course is that Robshaw misses out. If they think that Wood can do what Robshaw can at 7, then it's just a question of whether they want Croft or Robshaw in the team more.

Luke Wallace is another to watch out for. He went a bit quiet in the second half of last season, but against Bath in the LV = Cup last weekend he was amazing. 18 tackles, 12 carries and at least 2 turnovers, one of which I still can't get my head round.

I really really rate him, but haven't seen him play recently. So glad to hear he's stil playing well

[Jimpy]

I still think Lancaster and Botha have got something going on, its the only possible explanation for his continued (and baffling) selection.

[Biltong]

I still think Lancaster and Botha have got something going on, its the only possible explanation for his continued (and baffling) selection.

He is their translator.

[Beaker]

Corbisiero hasn't played much so far as he recovers his match fitness.
Has anyone seen him play in his c;ub games? How has he done?
I would preseme pretty good or he would not have been chosen......

Not first hand but a friend of mine saw the LV match between LI v Tigers and said Corbisiero struggled against Fraser Balmain which is rather concerning.

[doctor_grey]

Thanks, mate.
To me, is quite concerning, especially aganst the Boks.
England really doesn't seem to have a lot of depth in the front row at the moment.

[EnglishReign]

Englishreign, I don't know how good 'that good' is.

Well seeing as we're talking about him potentially being in the England squad, I think it's clear I mean is he "that good", that he can be considered for international rugby.

The last thing he did for England was set up Scott Williams for a winning score.

[HERSH]

Brown on the wing!!!!!

FFS! He has to go down as the slowest winger in the history of International rugby.

What is SL thinking? pick anyone but him.

[Geordie]

The forwards have to support their backs for once by winning the breakdown battle.

England back row is something that needs to become a strength..

ANd taking the ball at pace...sucking in defenders and giving the backs space...none of which ive seen yet in the 4 tests against the upper tier teams....

[thomh]

Brown on the wing!!!!!

FFS! He has to go down as the slowest winger in the history of International rugby.

What is SL thinking? pick anyone but him.

Few years out of date there. Brown is fast these days.

[ChequeredJersey]

Brown on the wing!!!!!

FFS! He has to go down as the slowest winger in the history of International rugby.

What is SL thinking? pick anyone but him.

Few years out of date there. Brown is fast these days.

This HERSH's new favourite topic. Don't bother trying to reason with him

[fa0019]

I can't remember Mike Brown ever looking quick... he may have worked on his speed mind but JP Pietersen beats people through guile rather than pace so its not all bad.

And he has a good boot on him so that will work well against Pienaar and co.

Think it gives ENG a good balance. Flood and Goode as receivers and Brown backing up with his kicking range.

If the wingers were quicker I'd be more concerned.

[mr_stonelea]

I wouldn't complain if our back 3 was Goode, Brown and Foden in the future....

[EnglishReign]

I wouldn't complain if our back 3 was Goode, Brown and Foden in the future....

If May, Wade and Ashton were available, I would.

[yappysnap]

Is Fearns that good? I've not seen a huge amount of him. Lancaster's also a fan of Calum Clark, though we don't yet know how far back his ban will set him in the coaches' minds.

The other possibility of course is that Robshaw misses out. If they think that Wood can do what Robshaw can at 7, then it's just a question of whether they want Croft or Robshaw in the team more.

Luke Wallace is another to watch out for. He went a bit quiet in the second half of last season, but against Bath in the LV = Cup last weekend he was amazing. 18 tackles, 12 carries and at least 2 turnovers, one of which I still can't get my head round.

He was good for a couple of the A league games before that as well.

If England ever want to go for a "specialist" 7 who's in England then Wallace has to be near the top of the pile. Note his hear is longer now as well

[sirtidychris]

I can't remember Mike Brown ever looking quick... he may have worked on his speed mind but JP Pietersen beats people through guile rather than pace so its not all bad.

And he has a good boot on him so that will work well against Pienaar and co.

Think it gives ENG a good balance. Flood and Goode as receivers and Brown backing up with his kicking range.

If the wingers were quicker I'd be more concerned.

Thats fair enough but wheres the attacking threat ? Barrat will bosh, tackle hard and maybe shift the ball along one, brown has a good boot and may be able to attack from deep from fullback but is not a winger at club level let alone international and yes there is a big difference positionally. Goode looks to have real quality about him but his skills are probably more suited to flyhalf or inside centre with tactical kicking and distribution being his main attributes not a running threat from deep that leaves tuilagi who is a beast but doesn't pass and will be well marked against the massive saffas and ashton who generally needs someone else to break the line before he pops up and runs a line from thier shoulder (Foden usually does this role)......to me this backline says tactical kicking, boshing and attrition.

[Barney McGrew did it]

Probably the best we could field at the moment. Good to see some of our 1st choice pack returning - just need Lawes, Hartley and Croft now (and Foden). The backline is more about availability and expediency - we're routinely beaten up by SA and have to select and play accordingly. Can you imagine what they'd do to something like a Care/Burns/36T/JJ/Sharples/Wade/Goode line - my God, the carnage.

[ChequeredJersey]

I can't remember Mike Brown ever looking quick... he may have worked on his speed mind but JP Pietersen beats people through guile rather than pace so its not all bad.

And he has a good boot on him so that will work well against Pienaar and co.

Think it gives ENG a good balance. Flood and Goode as receivers and Brown backing up with his kicking range.

If the wingers were quicker I'd be more concerned.

Thats fair enough but wheres the attacking threat ? Barrat will bosh, tackle hard and maybe shift the ball along one, brown has a good boot and may be able to attack from deep from fullback but is not a winger at club level let alone international and yes there is a big difference positionally. Goode looks to have real quality about him but his skills are probably more suited to flyhalf or inside centre with tactical kicking and distribution being his main attributes not a running threat from deep that leaves tuilagi who is a beast but doesn't pass and will be well marked against the massive saffas and ashton who generally needs someone else to break the line before he pops up and runs a line from thier shoulder (Foden usually does this role)......to me this backline says tactical kicking, boshing and attrition.

Tbf he is actually more likely to finish moves joining the line, often on the wing. That's where he scores his tries for us

[sirtidychris]

Barney your probably right about that backline but only because there would be too many new combinations and caps in one go against top opposition...but we need to start bringing through some of those guys as Twelvetrees, Burns, Wade, May etc will give us that extra edge needed to compete aginst the best teams, i feel bad for Faz jr but he doesn't offer much from the bench, his position could be filled by any of those names.

[HongKongCherry]

Brown on the wing!!!!!

FFS! He has to go down as the slowest winger in the history of International rugby.

What is SL thinking? pick anyone but him.

It's not often we agree on things HERSH, but I'm with you all the way here. Brown has improved his speed, but Pietersen is going to be rubbing his hands in delight knowing he's up against Brown. I rate Brown as a full back, but he's no winger.

What concerns me is that this team is set out to defend and grind out a win. If we go behind early on I don't feel there is anywhere near enough attacking flair to open them up. Bar the inclusion of Hartley SL has picked for me the strongest pack during his tenure, but I also feel this is his weakest back line.

I truly hope I am proved wrong and SL is shown as a tactical genius and me as a buffoon!

[bluestonevedder]

I can't remember Mike Brown ever looking quick... he may have worked on his speed mind but JP Pietersen beats people through guile rather than pace so its not all bad.

And he has a good boot on him so that will work well against Pienaar and co.

Think it gives ENG a good balance. Flood and Goode as receivers and Brown backing up with his kicking range.

If the wingers were quicker I'd be more concerned.

Thats fair enough but wheres the attacking threat ? Barrat will bosh, tackle hard and maybe shift the ball along one, brown has a good boot and may be able to attack from deep from fullback but is not a winger at club level let alone international and yes there is a big difference positionally. Goode looks to have real quality about him but his skills are probably more suited to flyhalf or inside centre with tactical kicking and distribution being his main attributes not a running threat from deep that leaves tuilagi who is a beast but doesn't pass and will be well marked against the massive saffas and ashton who generally needs someone else to break the line before he pops up and runs a line from thier shoulder (Foden usually does this role)......to me this backline says tactical kicking, boshing and attrition.

Tbf he is actually more likely to finish moves joining the line, often on the wing. That's where he scores his tries for us

Great point, and something that's often overlooked. I think Brown should do fine on the wing, and his left boot is a great option.

His speed isn't an issue at all. He's looked dangerous and quick when he's come on, and looks faster than Goode who no one complains about!

[Geordie]

Where are Lawes and Hartley in their recovery?

[bluestonevedder]

I saw that Hartley was off crutches, and had actually started weight training again. Considering Lawes' injury wasn't as bad as Hartley's, you'd expect him to be close to returning to action....?

[bluestonevedder]

Not sure if you've seen this GF http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/saints/boost-as-lawes-and-foden-edge-closer-to-fitness-1-4471996

Good news on Foden too

[Effervescing Elephant]

What worries me slightly is that SL says he's selected Youngs for his superior kicking. Is this a clue to the game plan we can expect at the weekend? I hope not, SA will muller us on the Kick-Chase!

[bluestonevedder]

Hopefully not EE!

Though Care's box kicking wasn't great. Didn't Australia's try come from a terrible box kick that went straight to hand without any follow up? Might be wrong there....

Certainly though, Youngs wasn't great when he came on.

[dummy_half]

Given who we had available, I think it's pretty much the best XV we could pick for a game against SA - I'd be less happy about playing Brown on the wing against the ABs, but teams have recently been fairly successful playing 2 FBs against the Boks.

The front row is our two first choice props and maybe best available hooker (obviously Hartley would be in if fit).

2nd row - Parling is starting to establish himself as a good line-out forward with some decent other parts to his game, and Launchbury seems to be a promising modern 2nd row with plenty of physicality and athleticism.

Back row is musch more powerful and dynamic than last week.

Half backs - when on form, Youngs and Flood is our strongest pairing, although not sure either are exactly world beaters.

Back 3 - Already mentioned Brown. Goode has been one of the successes of the AIs so far and Ashton is our best winger / finisher.

Centres - My one area of concern. The good news is that attackers won't run through them, but the bad news is how much will they create in attack?

[gregortree]

yes, Aussie try came from catch of fluffed box kick from Care

[bluestonevedder]

yes, Aussie try came from catch of fluffed box kick from Care

I'm not sure if that's general disappointment in conceding the try, or sarcasm towards me?

[gregortree]

Not you Bluestone
this was my reaction to Care's stupid kick at the time.
Aussie took the try well, but apart from Care starting the move, T Youngs & Sharples 'tackle' attempts were poor, so a team effort from England for the Aussie try.

[RubyGuby]

Do you guys have any fecking day jobs or what

[bluestonevedder]

Not you Bluestone
this was my reaction to Care's stupid kick at the time.
Aussie took the try well, but apart from Care starting the move, T Youngs & Sharples 'tackle' attempts were poor, so a team effort from England for the Aussie try.

Ah I see, sorry gregortree- sometimes hard to tell on the internet .

Yeh, the blame definitely doesn't lie completely with Care; the tackles were very poor attempts, but Care should have been shouting at them to follow up, or at least charge it himself. Maybe I'm being harsh, but it did seem aimless.

[bluestonevedder]

Do you guys have any fecking day jobs or what

Slow day today ruby!

[RubyGuby]

Just taking a break in between writing reports but you lot just go on and on Munnn

[Geordie]

Or very good at our jobs...

PS Im on a course this week...and its the slowest most boring course....

[Bathman_in_London]

I can't remember Mike Brown ever looking quick... he may have worked on his speed mind but JP Pietersen beats people through guile rather than pace so its not all bad.

And he has a good boot on him so that will work well against Pienaar and co.

Think it gives ENG a good balance. Flood and Goode as receivers and Brown backing up with his kicking range.

If the wingers were quicker I'd be more concerned.

Thats fair enough but wheres the attacking threat ? Barrat will bosh, tackle hard and maybe shift the ball along one, brown has a good boot and may be able to attack from deep from fullback but is not a winger at club level let alone international and yes there is a big difference positionally. Goode looks to have real quality about him but his skills are probably more suited to flyhalf or inside centre with tactical kicking and distribution being his main attributes not a running threat from deep that leaves tuilagi who is a beast but doesn't pass and will be well marked against the massive saffas and ashton who generally needs someone else to break the line before he pops up and runs a line from thier shoulder (Foden usually does this role)......to me this backline says tactical kicking, boshing and attrition.

Tbf he is actually more likely to finish moves joining the line, often on the wing. That's where he scores his tries for us

Great point, and something that's often overlooked. I think Brown should do fine on the wing, and his left boot is a great option.

His speed isn't an issue at all. He's looked dangerous and quick when he's come on, and looks faster than Goode who no one complains about!

To be honest I'm worried about Goode's speed! For the first Fijii try he was struggling, trying to hold the player back without the ball. I'd hate to think how he'd do in a foot race against Dagg... But then again Percy Montgomery did pretty well and he wasnt the quickest!

[RubyGuby]

Or very good at our jobs...

PS Im on a course this week...and its the slowest most boring course....

Yeah I know what you mean mate, those driving awareness things do my head in as well

[yappysnap]

A little tiny bit more confident about the weekend now, but still expecting a loss.

[propdavid_london]

I think this england selection is not bad.
In the forwards selection of Morgan and Corbis is something that I've been looking for. I've been impressed with Launchburys showing from the bench and Palmer needed a wakeup call - no arguments there.
Wood in and Johnston out - good move, Wood created plenty of problems for Phipps and will need to do the same against Pinnarr.
Haskell off the bench if we get bullied - and can cover injury in whole back row.

Youngs over Care - I'm not sure about this. Care got through a hell of a lot of work, yes delivery was a bit slow - but Youngs was too, and made stupid decisions! Think thats a backwards step.

I would have liked to see the JJ and Tuilagi combination again.

Back 3, I can see what people are saying - with Goode and Brown there there is a feeling of 'lack of pace'. Brown has definately worked on this and is deceptively quick - however, is he's not going to leave anyone for dead either - most of his trys come from attacking from deep, good lines and a lot of strength to get over the line (will he do this against SA - I hope so).
JJ can come on for Brown if needed to cover wing, or can partner Barritt in the centre and shift Tuilagi to wing.

There is good flexibility in this team and a few bench changes could change the direction of a game (or ruin it).

Farrell offers nothing though! He wont change a game, he's more inconsistent at penalties than Flood so wont close a game out either.

[gregortree]

60% of votes above are for RSA win.
I like our new pack, but they need to show up.

[screamingaddabs]

Farrell offers nothing though! He wont change a game, he's more inconsistent at penalties than Flood so wont close a game out either.

Yeah, I think pretty much everyone on here thinks that Farrell either starts (and most think he shouldn't do that!) or be dropped for someone more.... Dynamic? I certainly think that.

[propdavid_london]

But, chucking Freddie Burns in there against SA or NZ may not be doing him any favours either.
Think we missed a trick not playing him against Fiji.

Ah heck.......if they are good enough to be in the squad then there shouldnt be any worry about sticking them in the matchday squad.

[gregortree]

agree on Burns Prop, too late this series, too soon for Burns. Maybe 6n bench.

[Chjw131]

I'm a fan of all the changes but I would say that Wood and Morgan should perhaps have started from the outset then the backrow would've had some time to gel.

I genuinely think that 6. Wood 7. Robshaw 8. Morgan 20. Fearns/Croft/Robshaw - will be and should be our inked in back row going forward. They compliment each other extremely well and Robshaw's main saving grace is his superb ability to distribute and pass from the base. He really has excellent skills in that area, meaning his link play could be top drawer.

Brown i'm not a fan of on the wing, but given Foden's unavailable I can understand the desire for a FB there.

I have said from the outset that Nick Abendanon would be the best option there, particularly seeing he doesn't compromise the side in terms of attack.

Changing Farrell is starting to become a priority for me. If you want a full armory to select from you need some dynamism and options available from the bench. That means Freddie Burns, Jonny May and some power in the form of Haskell/Carl Fearns and Courtney Lawes on the bench.

[Geordie]

Or very good at our jobs...

PS Im on a course this week...and its the slowest most boring course....

Yeah I know what you mean mate, those driving awareness things do my head in as well

Mate that would be a joy...try a week of demand planning and forecasting....

I mean theres only so much you can do...

[propdavid_london]

And when Hartley is back, a Tom Youngs on the bench offers something more than Paice.

Lawes off the bench could offer more than Botha.

Hopevully Mako Vaunipola will continue his development but Corbis is still 1st choice for me. For a moment I thought that he killed that Australian on the pitch when Mako hit him!

We need a suitable TH - although fairness to D.Wilson he's played better this season than I've ever seen him play. (how old is he).

Haskell off the bench offers good flexibility.

There will always be the Wood vs Croft decision to make (you cant have both starting as they are too similar).

Fearns I'm still yet to be convinced on.

[Chjw131]

And when Hartley is back, a Tom Youngs on the bench offers something more than Paice.

Lawes off the bench could offer more than Botha.

Hopevully Mako Vaunipola will continue his development but Corbis is still 1st choice for me. For a moment I thought that he killed that Australian on the pitch when Mako hit him!

We need a suitable TH - although fairness to D.Wilson he's played better this season than I've ever seen him play. (how old is he).

Haskell off the bench offers good flexibility.

There will always be the Wood vs Croft decision to make (you cant have both starting as they are too similar).

Fearns I'm still yet to be convinced on.

Mako is an excellent prospect and has only appeared due to Corbs going down at the start. With some more time in the Jeff he'll get steadily better in the scrum.

Davy Wilson has come on leaps and bounds recently and he's still only 27. If he continues in this vein he'll be a superb back-up to Cole. Behind him we are a bit light. But with some good youngsters coming through. Keep an eye on Shaun Knight at Gloucester.

[Geordie]

And when Hartley is back, a Tom Youngs on the bench offers something more than Paice.

Lawes off the bench could offer more than Botha.

Hopevully Mako Vaunipola will continue his development but Corbis is still 1st choice for me. For a moment I thought that he killed that Australian on the pitch when Mako hit him!

We need a suitable TH - although fairness to D.Wilson he's played better this season than I've ever seen him play. (how old is he).

Haskell off the bench offers good flexibility.

There will always be the Wood vs Croft decision to make (you cant have both starting as they are too similar).

Fearns I'm still yet to be convinced on.

Mako is an excellent prospect and has only appeared due to Corbs going down at the start. With some more time in the Jeff he'll get steadily better in the scrum.

Davy Wilson has come on leaps and bounds recently and he's still only 27. If he continues in this vein he'll be a superb back-up to Cole. Behind him we are a bit light. But with some good youngsters coming through. Keep an eye on Shaun Knight at Gloucester.

Start Lawes and Launchbury...nice physical aggressive second row

ANd at TH keep an eye out for Scott Wilson aswell...progressing nicely...

[gregortree]

Yaaawwn ! When will Hersh start the AB thread ?

[Biltong]

I just watched Boots and All in SA, Naas Botha says we will win, so I am going to believe him.

[Wi11]

Seems like a bit of a change of tack for Lancaster - before he has only really dropped people mid-series if injured or they are playing very poorly. This time Johnson, Palmer, Waldrom, Care and Sharples have all gone off the back of one indifferent performance. Lancaster becoming more confident as a coach? Or just panicking?

I agree with some of the decisions, but I might have held Waldrom back for this game to strengthen our defence around the fringes. I'm not really sure why he has dropped Care but not so worried about that - Youngs isn't bad either!

Brown on the wing will be interesting. I've always assumed he couldn't cut it as a wing but presumably Lancaster thinks he can... either that or it is a one-off tactical selection.

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