The Scottish International Rugby Thread

[R!skysports]

First topic message reminder :

As a die hard Scotland rugby supporter, over the years I have been dragged through the mill. Poor selections, poor coaches and poor players.

Through thick and thin I have bleed blue, but is it time to say, enough is enough.

The incompetence and down right corruption* at the sru means I have been supporting a system and structure that, is to be frank, not deserving of my support.

When is it time to say, enough is enough. You shall not take my support for granted, and I will not support that was of space that is the sru.

Can we evoke change and move away from the old blazers who are destroying our game

Should we stop watching our team who currently make a fool of themselves


I am getting close to saying yes. I am almost at the point I do not care about our team And will sod off to go shopping this weekend


Our continued passion means our support ratifies the sru. Is it time to go on strike to show our displeasure, even if that means we miss out of watching our passion.

Can we affect the outcome

Your a dispirited and depressed Scotsman




*no proof of real corruption, but certainly an ability to corrupt the supporter


BUT I SUPPORT SCOTLAND TO THE END - GO SCOTLAND

(edited text, as the super duper mix tape of threads needed a most positive intro :-)

[SecretFly]

Serious question... any players who might do a better job as player/coach until Cotter arrives - only a few games left?

I have a feeling Johnson has just given up and is taking the money.  Maybe I'm so wrong there...but I keep going back to the image in my head as the world fell out of Scotland's 6N in the muddy field against a fast and furious English team.... Johnson up in his perch, hopelessly smiling.... hopelessly smiling it all away.  "It's the Scots Bless 'em.... they're having a bad time.  I'll be out of here soon enough.  No worries, what can a guy do."  Just seemed by his expression that he'd already resigned in his own head.

[Guest]

Its unbelievable that we are somehow lashing all the blame onto the coaches

Selection wise it was a disaster, but the "go to" players were an utter disgrace and that's something which SJ couldn't do anything about when they walked onto the pitch.

BACKS

Hogg
Tackles 9 MISSED 5. 56% missed tackles. Turned Over 4. f**king disgrace,
This is a guy who has been on a Lions tour and been coached by some pretty decent defence coaches and been in the company of some great defensive backs.

Seymour
Tackles 6 MISSED 3. 50% missed tackles. Turned Over 1. f**king disgrace,
Just because he is a debutant doesn't mean he should miss 50% of his tackles

Scott
Tackles 7 MISSED 4. 58% missed tackles. Metres Made 1m. f**king disgrace,

Weir
Tackles 12 MISSED 5. 42% missed tackles. f**king disgrace

How can Dunbar 6/0, Lamont 5/0, Laidlaw 8/0 have a 100% tackle rate, and only Dunbar is turned over once.... while the rest put a shower of sh1ite performance like that.

FORWARDS
Grant
Tackles 4/1. Turnovers 1 Pens 1
Low
Tackles 7/2. Turnovers 0 Pens 3
Wilson
Tackles 10/4. Turnovers 0 Pens 3
Hamilton
Tackles 13/0. Turnovers 1 Pens 4

How can you justify Wilsons performance 40% errors on the tackle, and gives away 3 f**king pens
When you compare Hamilton 13/0, Swinson 14/1, Fusaro 16/0 (and zero turnovers and zero pens)

So lets not wack the total blame on SJ & Co.

I know most were baying for Scotts return, but how he was selected I never know, Taylor was and is the 12 in-form, and based on Mattys performance he should be benched at best. How does think SJ think that Denton is and 8 and Wilson a 6 in the same back-row is beyond a joke. Denton whilst carrying for 57 metres didn't pass once and all he did was head down and pump his legs without thinking who was around him. Grant has lost his mojo since the Lions and needs a some good counselling and confidence building.

We can harp on about Brown not being a 7 but the reality he has performed very well there at club level in high intensity HC matches and the AP. However he didn't play well last week and most of us ripped him to pieces but when SJ drops him from the squad then we are aghast.

Only Dunbar, Lamont, Swinson and Fusaro did enough to be selected next week, however with some I think we need to persevere with e.g. Weir

15 Hogg
14 Evans
11 Lamont

13 Dunbar
12 Taylor

10 Weir
9 Laidlaw

8 Beattie or Wilson
7 Fusaro or Barclay
6 Brown or Denton

5 God Knows but probably Gray snr
4 Swinson

3 Low
2 McArthur
1 Grant

Thank you. I don't post much because I freelance and literally lose money by the minute when on this forum, but I was really wanting to go look up those stats as I was convinced about what you say regards the backs. Yes Lamont has no pace but he also did very little wrong, brainfart offside aside, including an idiosyncratic try-saving tackle on Burrell in the first half. Laidlaw does need to sort his game out and actually vary his game though he has clearly, CLEARLY been coached out of his creativity.

As for the forwards - we need hard hitting grunts again. Can we just put out the biggest, meanest side possible against Italy and ruck them off the park please? That's the cornerstone of a winning side. I don't mean the heaviest forwards possible - the ones that are most up for this.

2 weeks of smashing tackle bags as hard as damn possible - whoever breaks the most equipment is in.

[Guest]

Back on topic I am still hoping for a changing room revolution. If it happens it'll come after being smashed by Italy in 2 weeks.

[demosthenes]

Back on topic I am still hoping for a changing room revolution. If it happens it'll come after being smashed by Italy in 2 weeks.

Agreed.  But who would lead it?  There don't appear to be any natural leaders left in the squad - at least not the sort to go toe to toe with the coach - as SJ has either dropped / 'exiled' them (Brown; Barclay); they are injured (Kellock); or they would be turkeys voting for Christmas if they did (Hamilton; Ford).

Clever boy, SJ.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

What? Hogg at 10? Then where will Robbie Robinson play in Scotland's backline when he comes to Edinburgh like a redemptive angel in the summer*?

*Maybe. If the SRU have any remaining shred of sense.

I know you're being tongue in cheek, GC, but the clowns at the SRU should be redoubling efforts to secure the services of a player of Robbie Robinson's calibre - if he goes to Ulster, then its yet another feic-up

[Guest]

Agree with that TJ. All teams have been through the doldrums, including the ever so magnificent Wales, so a new coach that suits Scottish rugby and brings back some pride is all that's needed IMO. Just gotta ride out the blip whilst this loose cannon coach shoots his last remaking toe off. Is Cotter on the cards? You won't get any comedy routines from him and he did wonders at the Bay with a bunch of also rans so he must know how to push the right buttons and get the most out his players.

[Hood83]

I have been a poster on these forums and the old Beeb 606 for about 7 years. A lot of my fellow Scottish posters have been here for about the same time, some longer and some are new guys. One thing that unites us as opposed to some other six nations posters is the realistic expectations we all have on here. From the moment Johnson announced the team I can’t think of one Scottish poster who said : “that’s a team that can beat Lancaster’s England Team” not a single one.

However in my long years of posting on here as a Scottish rugby fan I cannot ever remember our team being so cataclysmically woeful. Articles have already surfaced in the ever dependable “Torygraph” calling for Scotland’s involvement with the six nations to be called into question. Can any of us Scottish fans argue with that assessment. I spoke on another topic saying sure Romania or Georgia would have likely been cuffed too but at least they might have shown some endeavour or at the very worst some resistance.

Instead Scotland served up one of the most insipid, error strewn performances I have ever had the misfortune to endure.

Johnson is rolling over on the naïve card, this however is insulting my intelligence. Lamont, Hamilton and Ford are not naïve players they have over 150 caps between them but Ford and Hamilton gave away 7 points against Ireland, Ford all by himself gave away another 7 points against Ireland, Hamilton gave away a 3 point penalty and Lamont was responsible for the penalty and subsequent lineout that gift wrapped England’s first try.

Certain players were anonymous on Saturday, Wilson simply isn’t abrasive enough to play 6. Why Stroks, Brown or Harley didn’t start is a question only Johnson can answer.

What made Saturday worse is that I feel in my heart this is the best group of players that Scotland have produced for years. Compare Southwell to Hogg, or Weir/Jackson to Godman, Scott to Morrison, Dunbar to Henderson I could go on.

So what is going on in the Scotland camp? For all of his faults at least our pack were a ferocious unit who in some games looked like they would eat their own grandmothers if it meant they could turn the ball over, and they are the same pack that are playing for Johnson. Granted our backs in the Robinson era were limited but at least they had the ball.

So amidst the awful game at the weekend I have created this thread to look to the future, in the belief that we have a team that can not only be competitive but a team that can win the 6N next year.

Cotter will be coming in and lets be honest he’ll have the best pick of any of the Scottish coaches for the last decade.

1. Grant, Dickinson, Reid (Nel)
2. MacArthur, McInally, Ford, Lawson, Brown
3. Welsh, Lowe, Murray
4. R Gray, Swinson, Low
5. J Gray, McKenzie, Gilchrist
6. Brown, Harley, Strockosch
7. Rennie, Barclay, Fusaro, Grant, Cowan
8. Beattie, Denton, Wilson, Hogg (du Preez, Bluto)
9. Laidlaw, Cusiter, Pyrgos, Hart
10. Tonks, Jackson, Weir, Heathcoate
11. Visser, Seymore, McGuigan
12. Scott, Horne, Taylor, Grove
13. Dunbar, NDL, Bennett, Vernon
14. Maitland, Fife, Evans
15. Hogg, Cuthbert, Murchie

Maybe I’m an idiot, maybe I’m a complete clown….

But that is better than the rubbish Robinson and Hadden had to work with isn’t it?

Can Cotter get this lot smacking into rucks, doing the basics and most important of all get this lot playing like Scotland of the 90s with passion, pride and aggression.

We saw none of it on Saturday but as the title says… perhaps now we are at the darkest time of night, just before the dawn.

  

I said at the time I thought Robinson was an excellent forward's coach for you, and probably had you the best drilled pack in the NH. I still believe that. It's a shame he hampered himself with a useless selection policy and zero attempt at utilising backs.

[RDW]

The Scotsman raised a valid point this morning – SJ only agreed to take over as head coach on the basis that he only did it for 6 months and they brought someone else in. Unfortunately Cotter had to stay on another year at Clermont. He doesn't want to be head coach, so perhaps like Ross Ford (it isn’t his fault he keeps getting picked) we maybe shouldn’t be so harsh on SJ?

Really is a mess – we’ve got a head coach who doesn't want to be a head coach, and we’ve got players getting picked that probably don’t want to get picked!

[George Carlin]

What? Hogg at 10? Then where will Robbie Robinson play in Scotland's backline when he comes to Edinburgh like a redemptive angel in the summer*?

*Maybe. If the SRU have any remaining shred of sense.

I know you're being tongue in cheek, GC, but the clowns at the SRU should be redoubling efforts to secure the services of a player of Robbie Robinson's calibre - if he goes to Ulster, then its yet another feic-up

Couldn't agree more. I'm making jokes because I'm nervous that the SRU will find a good reason to mess this up. First Tommy Allan with Italy, then Scott Wilson at the Falcons who is now tied to England - we cannot afford to let more talent qualify for other nations simply because we can't get our act together to sign them up.

[tigertattie]

nonsense. If a player really didnt want to be picked he can easily withdraw himself from international selection.

[tigertattie]

Not before long, someone has made a Hitler parody of the current state of Scottish rugby

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pkp0hZfaPBM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Warning - bad language and not for those easily offended. So 21st schizoid, I know you're a sensitive soul so best avoid it....!

I posted it on another thread. It's great! tempted to whack it into its own thread   

[EWT Spoons]

Allan Massie has written about SJ not being up to the job in the Scotsman today.  Nothing we haven't already said here, but interesting none the less.

EVERY Scottish rugby supporter has had some bad experiences, few quite as dismal and depressing as Saturday’s Calcutta Cup match. It’s one thing to be torn apart by the All Blacks or pummelled by the Springboks, quite another to be made to look so poor by an England XV that never seemed to have to engage top gear.


Our interim coach Scott Johnson talks of Scotland as a new team, finding its way. Yet in the English three-quarter line both wings and one centre are in their first season of Six Nations rugby while in the Scotland pack Ryan Grant and Ross Ford are Lions and Jim Hamilton has won more than 50 caps.

Johnson talked of the game as being “a bad day at the office”. The cliche is common, and there have been too many such days. We were so poor it is hard to know where to begin. So we might as well start with the first kick-off, which was directed straight into the arms of Billy Vunipola, the most powerful runner in the England team. If there is one player in that side you don’t want to give the ball to, it is Vunipola, but this wasn’t the only time we did just that. In contrast, when France kicked off at the Stade de France a week ago, the ball went to England’s new cap, Jack Nowell. He knocked it on, and 30 seconds later France scored a try.

Then consider the Scottish lineout. It was dreadful against Ireland and even worse against England. Often nowadays teams prefer not to kick for touch out of defence, because this usually means surrendering possession, whereas if you kick long down- field you have a chance of regaining possession from a return kick. But England had no reason not to kick for touch, because they had almost a 50-50 chance of winning the line-out. But what should you do if your line-out isn’t working well? Answer, as given by Clive Woodward after the match: you keep it simple, throwing flat to the man at No 2, because it‘s less risky than trying the throw to the tail. The hooker nearly always gets the blame when the lineout goes wrong, but, since there was no improvement when Scott Lawson replaced Ross Ford, there was surely some other reason for its malfunctioning.

There were some wrong decisions on the field, and some odd ones off it. Was there anyone watching who wasn’t bemused by the decision to take David Denton off after some 54 minutes? He had been the most effective Scottish player and showed no sign of being exhausted. Certainly there was a case for bringing Johnnie Beattie on – there is always a case for that – but not surely instead of Denton. He looked less than happy when he marched off, and one couldn’t blame him.

After such a match people always talk about the need for passion and fervour. Fair enough, perhaps, but there was no lack of endeavour and commitment on the part of the Scottish players. In any case, as one recently retired and very experienced international observed to me, you can’t win Test matches these days by such qualities alone. Failure is more likely to be caused by poor organisation and a lack of understanding of where you should be at a particular moment and what you should be doing. If he is right – and I’m sure he is – the conclusion must be that the preparation of the team for Saturday was inadequate. One has seen all the starting XV and the replacements used play very good games, often enough to know that they are talented and capable. Of course any individual can have a bad game, and this may have a knock-on effect. But when a whole team seems as unsure of itself, and of what it is trying to do, as Scotland on Saturday, it’s reasonable to point the finger at the coaches.

Old-fashioned folk (like me) may say that it’s the job of the captain on the field to take a grip and put things right, but, though coaches speak of the need to have more than one leader in a side, their readiness to pull the nominated captain off suggests that they don’t really think his job is that important. I can’t think that captains like Jim Aitken, Colin Deans or David Sole would have responded well to being hauled off at any time, certainly not before a match had been well and truly won.

After the first weekend of the tournament it was a reasonable, if gloomy, prediction that we were heading for another Wooden Spoon. It looks even more reasonable now. Italy may, like us, have lost two matches, but both were away, and in both they have played better, with more conviction and enterprise than we have. They have scored three tries; we have scored none. Their coach, Jacques Brunel, has them playing a well-structured game. They look as if they know what they are doing, and they might well have beaten France but for two moments of brilliance from Wesley Fofana. They looked the better side for much of the match and spent a lot of the second half in the French 22. We spent three per cent in England’s.

[George Carlin]

Good stats Fly - I noticed also that Fozzy topped the tackle count for both Scots and English players with 15 made and none missed, 2 turnovers.

[TheMildlyFranticLlama]

Serious question... any players who might do a better job as player/coach until Cotter arrives - only a few games left?

I have a feeling Johnson has just given up and is taking the money.  Maybe I'm so wrong there...but I keep going back to the image in my head as the world fell out of Scotland's 6N in the muddy field against a fast and furious English team.... Johnson up in his perch, hopelessly smiling.... hopelessly smiling it all away.  "It's the Scots Bless 'em.... they're having a bad time.  I'll be out of here soon enough.  No worries, what can a guy do."  Just seemed by his expression that he'd already resigned in his own head.

How many of you who were all over Andy Robinson not so long ago would honestly not rather have him smashing seven shades of sh!t out of his coaching box and actually showing some genuine passion for Scottish rugby than have this vacuous clown grinning away running over his interview jokes in his head?

That word, passion, is the big one for me. Against Italy I want to see a side who go out and fight for each other and start to actually repay the honour of representing their country. I can get over it if we lose, provided Italy put in a good showing, but I want to see a reaction from the players and for them to start showing what it means to wear the thistle. I want to see some of the spirit that the Scottish greats of days gone by would put in, that means blood, sweat and tears and the thought of being smashed backwards being absolutely unthinkable. No Scottish pack should be getting bullied. They can be shown up by sides with more skillful hands in the forwards, more deft offloads, fine. But getting physically bullied? No.

So I'd like to see some genuine fire in the team, that means Strokosch at 6 - ask the south africans if they think he'd get bullied easily - I want to see the Grays in the second row, and I want someone to tell Richie to leave the field without his little brother having made him look like a little girl. And no Mr Hamilton, I said fire not stupidity. Pack your bags, you're done. And if that doesn't fit with SJ's views on 'tinkering' then he can take it up with the Scottish fans

[BigGee]

The Scotsman raised a valid point this morning – SJ only agreed to take over as head coach on the basis that he only did it for 6 months and they brought someone else in.  Unfortunately Cotter had to stay on another year at Clermont.  He doesn't want to be head coach, so perhaps like Ross Ford (it isn’t his fault he keeps getting picked) we maybe shouldn’t be so harsh on SJ?

Really is a mess – we’ve got a head coach who doesn't want to be a head coach, and we’ve got players getting picked that probably don’t want to get picked!

It has taken me a few days to digest the weekends game before I could contemplate commenting on it. Predictably and understandably there has been outrage and calls for the coaches head. This is becoming a slightly predictable trait with Scottish rugby supporters, we have been through the same things with Williams, Hadden, Robinson and now Scott Johnson. Are we just always picking bad coaches, is it right to keep blaming them for making the best of what they have got, or is it just a case of we are getting the coaches we deserve.

The situation with SJ is actually quite unique in that he is a caretaker, who as it was said above, probably never really wanted to be the head coach. He is not playing for his life in the way that several of the others were and so has been given the relative luxury in international sport of being able to experiment a bit. I am not actually against what he is trying to do. If we are ever going to move on from producing gutsy back to the wall defensive efforts, with the occasional win then we definitely need to look at and blood new players who can perhaps in the longer term bring something different to the team. I was not even against Kelly Brown being dropped, the mistake was not dropping him but in making him the captain for the first game when his selection was hanging by a thread and not realising the outrage and potential effect on moral that event might have. I don't think KB would have been in the team for the next world cup at open or blind side assuming everyone is fit assuming Josh Strauss and Rennie, amonst others are fit and ready to go. He has been a great servant to Scottish rugby in some trying times but time is passing him by and other players need to move on upwards.

Nothing really excuses that performance against England but it is probably worth thinking about some of the factors at play. Firstly it was a 6 day turnaround from an away game against Ireland and a very physical one at that. By all accounts the players were hardly able to train all week, so wholesale changes were never really going to be an option. It is easy enough for us to sit here on a forum and pick a completely different team, at this level that is just not going to work. As Mike Blair said in his article playing with Heart and passion is never going to be enough. At professional international level it is about being prepared and understanding and executing the systems.

Of the changes that were made then I think Fusaro did enough to justify his selection. He topped the tackle count and certainly left it all on the pitch. He did fine for a first cap against a pack that was getting murdered. Matt Scott did not have a great game and looks a little short of match fitness. He could probably have done with another run off the bench but I can understand why he was picked, in the hope that he could provide the missing spark.

The changes that were not made were perhaps a little bit more baffling. Ford, pretty much everyone agrees needs some relief from the torture. He has played better for Edinburgh recently but his international form has gone completely. Hamilton, even more so than KB looks like he has had his time. There are younger and better models available and even if it means going into games with a pack with little or no experience, then this is what we need to do and that is how the team is going to grow,

Weir and Laidlaw did not have good games, but playing behind a pack that is getting murdered and with no set piece ball would be difficult for any half back pairing. That is not a complete excuse though and I think that Laidlaw, as the more experienced player, should takre more of the blame. I think we have to stick with Weir and give him a chance to see if he has got it. At the moment there are really few alternatives. Jackson showed on sunday for Glasgow that he is not really an international fly half (we probably already new that) and Hogg needs to stay as what he is, a world class full back. on better days and better pitches he will show us what he can do from there. Other than taking a wild punt on Heathcote, I think we need to persevere with Duncy, but bring Cusiter in to speed up his service.

I think we will see more changes for the Italy game, probably some of the ones we were clambering for before this game. I think we are actually lucky to be playing them next as this does still remain a game we can win. Italy will now be favourites, which may not sit well with them, they are 0 fro 2 as well and despite playing well against France at times, lost badly. The game will be played on a much better pitch as well, which I think will help us as we do have players who can run fast and hard on a fast track. A win and some confidence and the season is not yet over.

SJ is not going to go before the end of the tournament, it would be wishful thinking to imagine otherwise. I don't think he has lost the dressing room either. More likely it is a case of the team and the coaching staff being in a stage of transition and that clearly seems to be having an effect. Whether he is the right candidate to be a director of rugby is an entirely different question, as we still remain unclear as to what his remit is going to be for that job. He does not seem to be someone who is afraid to take hard and difficult decisions, which I think need to be made with Scottish rugby.

I actually think the defeat against Tonga last year was worse than this game, as that really was a game we should have won against pretty limited opposition. England are actually a pretty good team at the moment, as are Ireland, look what they did to Wales.

There is no getting away from the fact that it was a poor poor game though. That it was against England at home just makes it all the worse, but all this talk about dropping us out of the 6 nations is complete nonsense. We lost by 20-0 at the end of the day, we have had worse score lines before and no doubt will again. Scot haters like SCW obviously can't resist sticking the knife in, we would do the same if the boot was on the other foot.

The 6 nations is not over yet, we still have three games to go and the chance of some redemption. We are a better team than we have seen so far, potentially, as many have said the best Scottish side for years. It is not easy at the moment but we do need to stay behind the team!

[BigGee]

Serious question... any players who might do a better job as player/coach until Cotter arrives - only a few games left?

I have a feeling Johnson has just given up and is taking the money.  Maybe I'm so wrong there...but I keep going back to the image in my head as the world fell out of Scotland's 6N in the muddy field against a fast and furious English team.... Johnson up in his perch, hopelessly smiling.... hopelessly smiling it all away.  "It's the Scots Bless 'em.... they're having a bad time.  I'll be out of here soon enough.  No worries, what can a guy do."  Just seemed by his expression that he'd already resigned in his own head.

How many of you who were all over Andy Robinson not so long ago would honestly not rather have him smashing seven shades of sh!t out of his coaching box and actually showing some genuine passion for Scottish rugby than have this vacuous clown grinning away running over his interview jokes in his head?

That word, passion, is the big one for me. Against Italy I want to see a side who go out and fight for each other and start to actually repay the honour of representing their country. I can get over it if we lose, provided Italy put in a good showing, but I want to see a reaction from the players and for them to start showing what it means to wear the thistle. I want to see some of the spirit that the Scottish greats of days gone by would put in, that means blood, sweat and tears and the thought of being smashed backwards being absolutely unthinkable. No Scottish pack should be getting bullied. They can be shown up by sides with more skillful hands in the forwards, more deft offloads, fine. But getting physically bullied? No.

So I'd like to see some genuine fire in the team, that means Strokosch at 6 - ask the south africans if they think he'd get bullied easily - I want to see the Grays in the second row, and I want someone to tell Richie to leave the field without his little brother having made him look like a little girl. And no Mr Hamilton, I said fire not stupidity. Pack your bags, you're done. And if that doesn't fit with SJ's views on 'tinkering' then he can take it up with the Scottish fans

This is ultimately the question I think that SJ is trying to ask and it is one that sits well within the Scottish psyche. We can put in players that will fight for every blade of grass but at the end of the day are ultimately limited international rugby players. Are we basically happy to lose provided we put up a good fight. Good international rugby players should have all those fighting qualities plus the skills to do the 'deft offloads' and all the other fancy stuff. With modern defences this is what wins you games, it should not be seen as an optional extra.

I don't think he lacks passion either, the obligatory coaching box camera caught him banging the table in much the same way as Robo used to. The amount of table banging is no accurate reflection of either a coaches passion and commitment though. Like a lot of good coaches he is actually soaking up a lot of the criticism that would otherwise be aimed at the players, much of it deserved. It can't be easy being a Scottish rugby coach and in keeping on blaming them we are ignoring and overlooking some of the deeper problems in Scottish rugby that are putting us in this position.

[RuggerRadge2611]

The Scotsman raised a valid point this morning – SJ only agreed to take over as head coach on the basis that he only did it for 6 months and they brought someone else in.  Unfortunately Cotter had to stay on another year at Clermont.  He doesn't want to be head coach, so perhaps like Ross Ford (it isn’t his fault he keeps getting picked) we maybe shouldn’t be so harsh on SJ?

Really is a mess – we’ve got a head coach who doesn't want to be a head coach, and we’ve got players getting picked that probably don’t want to get picked!

It has taken me a few days to digest the weekends game before I could contemplate commenting on it. Predictably and understandably there has been outrage and calls for the coaches head. This is becoming a slightly predictable trait with Scottish rugby supporters, we have been through the same things with Williams, Hadden, Robinson and now Scott Johnson. Are we just always picking bad coaches, is it right to keep blaming them for making the best of what they have got, or is it just a case of we are getting the coaches we deserve.

The situation with SJ is actually quite unique in that he is a caretaker, who as it was said above, probably never really wanted to be the head coach. He is not playing for his life in the way that several of the others were and so has been given the relative luxury in international sport of being able to experiment a bit. I am not actually against what he is trying to do. If we are ever going to move on from producing gutsy back to the wall defensive efforts, with the occasional win then we definitely need to look at and blood new players who can perhaps in the longer term bring something different to the team. I was not even against Kelly Brown being dropped, the mistake was not dropping him but in making him the captain for the first game when his selection was hanging by a thread and not realising the outrage and potential effect on moral that event might have. I don't think KB would have been in the team for the next world cup at open or blind side assuming everyone is fit assuming Josh Strauss and Rennie, amonst others are fit and ready to go. He has been a great servant to Scottish rugby in some trying times but time is passing him by and other players need to move on upwards.

Nothing really excuses that performance against England but it is probably worth thinking about some of the factors at play. Firstly it was a 6 day turnaround from an away game against Ireland and a very physical one at that. By all accounts the players were hardly able to train all week, so wholesale changes were never really going to be an option. It is easy enough for us to sit here on a forum and pick a completely different team, at this level that is just not going to work. As Mike Blair said in his article playing with Heart and passion is never going to be enough. At professional international level it is about being prepared and understanding and executing the systems.

Of the changes that were made then I think Fusaro did enough to justify his selection. He topped the tackle count and certainly left it all on the pitch. He did fine for a first cap against a pack that was getting murdered. Matt Scott did not have a great game and looks a little short of match fitness. He could probably have done with another run off the bench but I can understand why he was picked, in the hope that he could provide the missing spark.

The changes that were not made were perhaps a little bit more baffling. Ford, pretty much everyone agrees needs some relief from the torture. He has played better for Edinburgh recently but his international form has gone completely. Hamilton, even more so than KB looks like he has had his time. There are younger and better models available and even if it means going into games with a pack with little or no experience, then this is what we need to do and that is how the team is going to grow,

Weir and Laidlaw did not have good games, but playing behind a pack that is getting murdered and with no set piece ball would be difficult for any half back pairing. That is not a complete excuse though and I think that Laidlaw, as the more experienced player, should takre more of the blame. I think we have to stick with Weir and give him a chance to see if he has got it. At the moment there are really few alternatives. Jackson showed on sunday for Glasgow that he is not really an international fly half (we probably already new that) and Hogg needs to stay as what he is, a world class full back. on better days and better pitches he will show us what he can do from there. Other than taking a wild punt on Heathcote, I think we need to persevere with Duncy, but bring Cusiter in to speed up his service.

I think we will see more changes for the Italy game, probably some of the ones we were clambering for before this game. I think we are actually lucky to be playing them next as this does still remain a game we can win. Italy will now be favourites, which may not sit well with them, they are 0 fro 2 as well and despite playing well against France at times, lost badly. The game will be played on a much better pitch as well, which I think will help us as we do have players who can run fast and hard on a fast track. A win and some confidence and the season is not yet over.

SJ is not going to go before the end of the tournament, it would be wishful thinking to imagine otherwise. I don't think he has lost the dressing room either. More likely it is a case of the team and the coaching staff being in a stage of transition and that clearly seems to be having an effect. Whether he is the right candidate to be a director of rugby is an entirely different question, as we still remain unclear as to what his remit is going to be for that job. He does not seem to be someone who is afraid to take hard and difficult decisions, which I think need to be made with Scottish rugby.

I actually think the defeat against Tonga last year was worse than this game, as that really was a game we should have won against pretty limited opposition. England are actually a pretty good team at the moment, as are Ireland, look what they did to Wales.

There is no getting away from the fact that it was a poor poor game though. That it was against England at home just makes it all the worse, but all this talk about dropping us out of the 6 nations is complete nonsense. We lost by 20-0 at the end of the day, we have had worse score lines before and no doubt will again. Scot haters like SCW obviously can't resist sticking the knife in, we would do the same if the boot was on the other foot.

The 6 nations is not over yet, we still have three games to go and the chance of some redemption. We are a better team than we have seen so far, potentially, as many have said the best Scottish side for years. It is not easy at the moment but we do need to stay behind the team!

A measured respons BeeGee, although I disagree with a lot of what you say, you have done it well.

Firstly the Calcutta Cup is not a match to experiment in.

Secondly this defeat was far worse than Tonga. At least in the Tonga game we looked competative. We were beaten but we weren't insipid and gutless.

Thirdly talk of booting us out of the 6N is perhaps sensationalist but I can't sit here with a straight face and say Romania or Georgia would go down like that. They might be on the wrong end of the scoreline but they would never capitulate as we did.

[lostinwales]

I dont know if the Lancaster model would be the right thing for you guys but the first thing he did was get rid of the older generation and pack the team with the limited fighter types -as he knew short term they would do a job.

Since then he has been phasing out the fighters and bringing in lots of new talent. I do appreciate its easier for us because we have the young players coming through, either due to luck or getting the academies right (or both) but it does seem to be working.

[R!skysports]

Our Team will not lose this weekend - and will not ship ANY points - you have my word on it...



One a less happy note, we will continue to score no points



(just a little light relief)  

[tigertattie]

lol

I thought you were gonna say that Ford and Hamilton were announcing their retirements

[TheMildlyFranticLlama]

This is ultimately the question I think that SJ is trying to ask and it is one that sits well within the Scottish psyche. We can put in players that will fight for every blade of grass but at the end of the day are ultimately limited international rugby players. Are we basically happy to lose provided we put up a good fight. Good international rugby players should have all those fighting qualities plus the skills to do the 'deft offloads' and all the other fancy stuff. With modern defences this is what wins you games, it should not be seen as an optional extra.

I don't think he lacks passion either, the obligatory coaching box camera caught him banging the table in much the same way as Robo used to. The amount of table banging is no accurate reflection of either a coaches passion and commitment though. Like a lot of good coaches he is actually soaking up a lot of the criticism that would otherwise be aimed at the players, much of it deserved. It can't be easy being a Scottish rugby coach and in keeping on blaming them we are ignoring and overlooking some of the deeper problems in Scottish rugby that are putting us in this position.

I understand what SJ is saying, and yes going forward it isnt any kind of long term solution to have limited players albeit ones who have some grit. However for me what he is saying and what he is doing don't match up. In one area he has taken a bold move and replaced Brown with Fusaro, which can clearly be seen to be a move for the future. On the other hand he consistently selects Ford and Hamilton, both seriously out of form and in Hamiltons case almost the very definition of a limited international rugby player. If he is going to keep a core of the team while bringing in players he things are key for the future then great, but that core of the team have to be players who are fit, on form and creating a base that the new players can work from

I should also add that I fully sympathise with those saying that we are too quick to point at the coach and lay the blame at their door. That is something I've said of Scottish rugby for a long time, and particularly towards the end of Robinson's tenure. It is just that in this case I seriously do not rate SJ as a coach and haven't done since long before he got involved with Scottish rugby. He should never have been appointed in the first place, and the longer he is in a position of power there the worse we will be for it. Only my opinion of course, and more than happy to be proven wrong

[R!skysports]

Ford has stuff to offer, but needs to re-again some swagger

Hamilton - agree time to consider retirement

[SecretFly]

I thought it was that Cotter had landed by parachute at nightfall to take over emergency Commmand.

[Captain_Sensible]

Right, enough of this misery. Time to look gorward to the Italy game, and talk about selections. Who would we like to see play? Personally, I think the team needs serious surgery, and a tactical rethink, and just plain better coaching. Under SJ, none are likely to happen, but I'm going to pick what I believe to be an improved team anyway.

Grant, MacArthur, Low
Gray, Gray,
Brown (c), Denton, Fusaro
Cusiter, Weir,
Seymour, Scott, Dunbar, Lamont
Hogg

Susb - Dickinson, Lawson, Welsh, Swinson, Beattie, Laidlaw, Heathcote, Bennett.

[R!skysports]

Happy thoughts happy thoughts


Grant, MacArthur, Low
Gray, Swinson,
Brown (c), Beattie, Fusaro
Cusiter, Weir,
Seymour, Scott, Dunbar, Lamont
Hogg

[cakeordeath]

They might be on the wrong end of the scoreline but they would never capitulate as we did.

I think we are our own worst enemy. To me the players are starting to believe their own hype. Maybe it's the culture in the SRU which puts them on this pedestal, maybe the move to professionalism.  Either way the players need a hard dose of reality.

You know what also peed me off. Last week there was an tweet about a player in the U20's squad. His official picture looked as if it belonged in a teenage girls magazine ( well I assume, as I am not an expert on that genre) is this the image the SRU want to portray of our players!

[RuggerRadge2611]

My team to Play Italy

1. Dickinson
2. Macarthur
3. Welsh
4. J Gray
5. R Gray
6. Brown (c)
7. Fusaro
8. Denton

9. Laidlaw
10. Weir
11. Fife
12. Scott
13. Dunbar
14. Seymore
15. Hogg

16. Brown
17.Grant
18.Cross
19. Swinson
20. Beattie
21. Cusiter
22. Taylor
23. Evans

No place for Ford (who needs a break), Hamilton  (who needs to retire), Lamont (who also needs to retire).

I would send that pack out with a remit to carry hard, smash every ruck to pieces and make the Italians dread the breakdown conflict.

Someone said on another thread no gym work, no CV, no other kind of training except lineout drills and breakdown work. Cash bonuses to every member of the squad who breaks/wrecks/damages any training equipment in the run up to the game.

The backs will work on defensive shape and work out moves to capitalize on the quick ball afforded by the forwards. Scott/Hogg/Dunbar/Fife/Seymore given free reign to move out of position to support the forwards on the break and work to put the same guys in as much space as possible.

Let the Gray bros, Dickinson, MacArthur and Dozer do the bulk of the carrying with Fusaro and Brown reverting to the chopper and jackal roles they excell in.

I can dream can't I?

I expect :

1. Grant
2. Ford
3. Lowe
4. Swinson
5. Hamilton
6. Beattie
7. Fusaro
8. Denton

9. Laidlaw
10. Hogg
11. Lamont (C)
12. Scott
13. Dunbar
14. Seymore
15. Cuthbert
 

[funnyExiledScot]

Agreed MFL - where SJ has gone wrong with "Project Future" is that he's kept the wrong players in the side. He's ditched Brown, Strokosch and Barclay, and kept Ford, Hamilton and S Lamont. He clearly wants to retain some experience in the side, but surely players like Brown and Strokosch should have stayed, rather than Hamilton, for the sake of experience.

SJ's judgement has been horribly exposed.

He has three games now to adjust the balance of the side. Ross Ford and Jim Hamilton should be excused, as should Ryan Wilson (one for the future, but he is not a blindside flanker for the present). I would also remove Sean Lamont. Harsh, but if we're serious about building for the future, then the old warhorse is surplus to requirements.

If we're serious about focusing on the future:

Props

Pleased to see Moray Low back in the mix. We're too short on options to ignore him any longer. He just needs to get shot of Glasgow where he's been messed about. Cross is average, and Murray is spent, so we need to develop another option at tighthead. Welsh and Kalman both seem the most likely, and I'd like to see Cross replaced with one of these guys for the next three games. Nel can't qualify quickly enough.

Grant and Dickinson are decent enough at loosehead, although I'd like Grant Shiells and Alex Allan to get more exposure before the World Cup. I think SJ just about has the pecking order right at loosehead.

Hooker

Pat MacArthur fully deserves to be involved against Italy, with Fraser Brown on the bench. Ford and Lawson are the past, and whilst one or both could well feature in the World Cup, the next three games should be about testing MacArthur and Brown, so that hooker does not remain a problem position for us going forward.

Lock

There are four locks who merit consideration: Richie Gray, Jonny Gray, Tim Swinson and Grant Gilchrist. I frankly don't care which three of these guys make the squad, and which two start, but these are the four locks to carry the Scotland pack forward. I'd suggest that at least three of them practice calling the lineout, because if I hear of Jim Hamilton or Al Kellock being selected again "because of their lineout expertise" or their "experience", I will not hold myself responsible for what happens to the coach who makes that decision.

Back row

The backrow, despite SJ's incompetence, is actually straightforward. We have two experienced specialist players in each position, of a high calibre, and a rookie following up. The succession planning is well in order here, it just takes a coach with a single functioning brain cell to do the right thing and pick from Brown, Strokosch or Harley at 6, Rennie, Barclay or Fusaro at 7, and Denton, Beattie or Wilson at 8. Done. Easy.

Scrum half

Another easy one. Laidlaw and Cusiter are experienced and bring leadership to an important role, and you have Pyrgos, Hart, Kennedy and S H-C offering backup. I'm personally happy with Laidlaw and Cusiter sharing the duties in this tournament, but over the next year or so I'd take a look at the back up options as well.

Fly half

Clearly not easy, and I do have sympathy with SJ in this regard, and have no issues with him backing Weir and giving him a run. We are short of quality at 10, every Scotland fan can readily concede that, so giving Weir a shot is as good an option as any. I'd have Jackson on the bench though, offers something slightly different, and I'd be doing everything possible to get Tom Heathcote and Lee Millar regular top flight rugby next season, plus convince Solomons to keep Tonks at 10.

Centre

Scott and Horne focusing on 12, Taylor and Bennett focusing on 13, and Dunbar offering versatility to play both 12 and 13. NDL and Grove offering backup. I think SJ has done pretty well in picking his centres to be honest, and I like that he's identified Scott and Dunbar early doors as the right combination to develop. I'd like to see more of Dunbar in attack, and I'd like Scott to get a run of games. Slightly worried that Scott isn't match sharp, but I can understand the gamble from SJ. Taylor is functional, but his allround skillset is average. Saracens use him in a very defined manner, and typically play off a lot of good possession and front foot ball. Scotland are asking very different questions on him, and I thought he struggled a bit against Ireland to be honest.

Wings

First choice wingers are Visser and Maitland, happy with that. Second choice should be Evans and Seymour, and I'd have Dougie Fife as back-up. I'll only repeat this one more time, but Sean Lamont, for all his tackling and his passion, is no longer an attacking threat to the opposition. If we're going to become a counter-attacking side, then we need players who can beat defenders, and then exploit opportunities having done so. We have badly missed Tim Visser. He may be a wimp in defence, but when he has the ball in his hands with any sort of space, then he offers a completely different threat to any other player we have, including Maitland.

Fullback

SJ sould resist the silly calls to move Hogg, and stick by him at 15. Yes, he's missed a couple of one on one tackles, and I appreciate that being a big weakness at 15, but every single time he gets the ball the crowd holds its breath, and Scottish rugby needs that now more than ever. As back up we have Tonks and Murchie, with Tom Brown waiting in the wings (Brown also covers wing). Again, this isn't a bad group, and SJ seems to be pretty much on top of things at 15.

Summary: SJ can generally get it right in picking backs, but hasn't got a basic clue about forwards, and I'm starting to think that Humphrey's is on some sort of sabotage mission!

[BigGee]

To try and answer the replies to my previous posts, I don't think this was an experiment just for the Calcutta cup, but an on going process. There are several older players in the Scotland team set up who have underperformed for years, or in other cases may have performed to the best of their abilities, but just are not good enough to be international players. We now do have some players are international quality or certainly have the potential to be. The trick is how do we bring these players through to make them the experienced internationals that we need.

If we had gone in against Ireland with a clean sheet we would have had a very green team and would likely have lost by much more. I personaly would not have picked Hamilton, so dropping him for the England game would not have been an issue. However there was a school of thought on these boards that in a stinking wet day in Dublin, a mud lark like Hamilton was what was needed. I went along with that but the prediction, much like the weather forecast proved to be wrong.

Should he then have been dropped for RG, again I would have said yes, along with pretty much everyone on these boards. That could have been the easy option though. The coaches are party to a lot more info about the players than we are, with their GPS tracking and the like. They have no where to hide on the training paddock or in the games. We know that Ritchie has been a passenger on occasions and has not been on top form this year. Maybe this was a shot across his bows to wise him up. Plenty players in the past have been picked for Scotland purely on reputation. I suspect it was a combination of this and this nonsense that only Hamilton can call the lineouts. That most definitely is a coaching issue and one that needs to be resolved immediately.

Ford in the front row is a more difficult one as we clearly do not have the options there that we do in other areas. Ford had shown some form for Edinburgh this year, especially in the HC. On that basis he started against Ireland. The question that needs to be asked is, 'if not Ford then who?' Is McArthur really an international option. You get the felling that the coaches do not think so, especially in a front row that without Murray is clearly struggling. They were aware of this at the beginning of the season, which is why they were very happy to let MacInally effectively waste a season converting to hooker, as he is potentially a longer term solution to this problem. Ford, as has been said needs to stand down now for his own sanity. SJ must have realised that was a gamble he had got wrong when he hooked him. I think we are still going to struggle in the subsequent games though. Ford really needs a move to have the chance to re-invent himself.

Should the half backs have been changed, again what where the options. I think Cusiter is probably playing better but can we do without Laidlaw's boot? Weir did not have a great game, but suffered behind a pack being mullered and badly needs the experience at this level to see if he has got it. Jackson showed us on Sunday for Glasgow that he is not the answer, nor I am sure is moving Hogg up to 10. He is a world class 15, let him stay there. We really have little choice but to stick with weir for the moment, with or without Laidlaw.

Scott did not look fully fit, but he and Dunbar remain out best current combo. we need to see what they can do if they ever get the ball in some space. The wings, well neither is our first choice in that position and I don't think either would have been playing had others been fit.

In summary that team was probably not far off the best team we could put out on the day. A few underperformed on the day and some of them will probably never be competitive at that level.

We lost that game in the set piece and in the front row in particular it is hard to know what we are going to do as we just do not have the options. Grant has not come back from the lions the same player who went away. Dickenson is another who has 50 odd caps without ever really looking the part. Low showed us why he has never nailed down the TH spot. We are still ever so shallow in these pivitol positions and we are going to carry on struggling until we have someone of real quality who can play there.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Lock

There are four locks who merit consideration: Richie Gray, Jonny Gray, Tim Swinson and Grant Gilchrist. I frankly don't care which three of these guys make the squad, and which two start, but these are the four locks to carry the Scotland pack forward. I'd suggest that at least three of them practice calling the lineout, because if I hear of Jim Hamilton or Al Kellock being selected again "because of their lineout expertise" or their "experience", I will not hold myself responsible for what happens to the coach who makes that decision.

Do you know some dangerous people?

[funnyExiledScot]

Lock

There are four locks who merit consideration: Richie Gray, Jonny Gray, Tim Swinson and Grant Gilchrist. I frankly don't care which three of these guys make the squad, and which two start, but these are the four locks to carry the Scotland pack forward. I'd suggest that at least three of them practice calling the lineout, because if I hear of Jim Hamilton or Al Kellock being selected again "because of their lineout expertise" or their "experience", I will not hold myself responsible for what happens to the coach who makes that decision.

Do you know some dangerous people?

I was going to hire 21stC Schizoid and Jimbo.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

I dont know if the Lancaster model would be the right thing for you guys but the first thing he did was get rid of the older generation and pack the team with the limited fighter types -as he knew short term they would do a job.

Since then he has been phasing out the fighters and bringing in lots of new talent. I do appreciate its easier for us because we have the young players coming through, either due to luck or getting the academies right (or both) but it does seem to be working.

Or a playing pool that is what, 50x the size?

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

This is ultimately the question I think that SJ is trying to ask and it is one that sits well within the Scottish psyche. We can put in players that will fight for every blade of grass but at the end of the day are ultimately limited international rugby players. Are we basically happy to lose provided we put up a good fight. Good international rugby players should have all those fighting qualities plus the skills to do the 'deft offloads' and all the other fancy stuff. With modern defences this is what wins you games, it should not be seen as an optional extra.

I don't think he lacks passion either, the obligatory coaching box camera caught him banging the table in much the same way as Robo used to. The amount of table banging is no accurate reflection of either a coaches passion and commitment though. Like a lot of good coaches he is actually soaking up a lot of the criticism that would otherwise be aimed at the players, much of it deserved. It can't be easy being a Scottish rugby coach and in keeping on blaming them we are ignoring and overlooking some of the deeper problems in Scottish rugby that are putting us in this position.

I understand what SJ is saying, and yes going forward it isnt any kind of long term solution to have limited players albeit ones who have some grit. However for me what he is saying and what he is doing don't match up. In one area he has taken a bold move and replaced Brown with Fusaro, which can clearly be seen to be a move for the future. On the other hand he consistently selects Ford and Hamilton, both seriously out of form and in Hamiltons case almost the very definition of a limited international rugby player. If he is going to keep a core of the team while bringing in players he things are key for the future then great, but that core of the team have to be players who are fit, on form and creating a base that the new players can work from

I should also add that I fully sympathise with those saying that we are too quick to point at the coach and lay the blame at their door. That is something I've said of Scottish rugby for a long time, and particularly towards the end of Robinson's tenure. It is just that in this case I seriously do not rate SJ as a coach and haven't done since long before he got involved with Scottish rugby. He should never have been appointed in the first place, and the longer he is in a position of power there the worse we will be for it. Only my opinion of course, and more than happy to be proven wrong

Llama, one of the issues with the coaches that the SRU have appointed is that their limitations were well known long before they were appointed to their Scotland position - Robinson was known as a decent forwards coach, promoted beyond his capabilities at England and an appalling selector; equally, Johnson may arguably be an ok skills coach, but derided in the Welsh regional game as promoted beyond his capabilities and known for acting a bit of a pratt

[funnyExiledScot]

In summary that team was probably not far off the best team we could put out on the day. A few underperformed on the day and some of them will probably never be competitive at that level.

I entirely agree with you regarding the backs. Even the selection of S Lamont, who I believe should be replaced, was entirely justifable.

I completely disagree regarding the forwards. The selections of Ross Ford, Jim Hamilton and Ryan Wilson are very hard to defend indeed. Two were on rank form, and the third out of position and unpowered for the task he was given. To get three from eight wrong is a serious miscalculation, and I'm not talking with the benefit of hindsight. I, and many others, made exactly these points prior to the match. The selection of the forwards was completely flawed, and all of the problems we warned about happened. Ford's throwing went to pot and his game disintegrated as a result. Hamilton didn't call the lineout effectively, didn't get around the park enough (nowhere near as effectively as Lawes), workrate not sufficient and referee relations as bad as normal. Wilson made no impact as a ball carrier, as a tackler (and I don't mean simply making tackles, I means making tackles with impact) and in terms of turning over or slowing down ball.

Did we have better options? In my view we did. Both MacArthur and Lawson are better throwers and hookers (in the technical sense) than Ford, even when he's playing well, and, if you want youth, you could look to Fraser Brown (who we capped last summer). You don't need to point out that Brown has barely played pro rugby, I'm fully aware of that, but if SJ is genuinely going to hide behind "experimentation", then he needs to actually experiment. Playing Ford with Lawson on the bench doesn't qualify.

At lock, we have three better options than Jim Hamilton: Richie Gray, Jonny Gray and Grant Gilchrist.

At blindside we have three better options than Ryan Wilson: Kelly Brown, Ali Strokosch and Rob Harley.

[funnyExiledScot]

Robinson would be extremely handy - skillful and versatile. With him on board you could almost imagine us constructing a backline where every player offered a genuine attacking threat. Just imagine.....

Losing Scott Wilson is annoying given the lack of decent tighthead we have. Tommy Allan I'm less fussed about. I'm not convinced he'd add much beyond players like Leonard and Heathcote, and anyway, when is Finn Russell going to emerge as the next big thing??

[jimbopip]

Lock

There are four locks who merit consideration: Richie Gray, Jonny Gray, Tim Swinson and Grant Gilchrist. I frankly don't care which three of these guys make the squad, and which two start, but these are the four locks to carry the Scotland pack forward. I'd suggest that at least three of them practice calling the lineout, because if I hear of Jim Hamilton or Al Kellock being selected again "because of their lineout expertise" or their "experience", I will not hold myself responsible for what happens to the coach who makes that decision.

Do you know some dangerous people?

I was going to hire 21stC Schizoid and Jimbo.

Can't speak for my elderly friend but once you factor in the bus fare from Essex, the Buckie, a sausage supper and bullets I don't come cheap.
However, in Rab C's case I will work pro bono.

[tigertattie]

FES for caretaker coach till cotter arrives!

[funnyExiledScot]

I wasn't going to propose bullets. Too quick. Too clean.

This is getting somewhat dark.....

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

  More happy thoughts   more happy thoughts   

The side to take the game to Italy and secure the win:

Front row: Grant, MacArthur, Low - Grant is struggling with the new scrum laws, no question and has not been the player of last season, but Dickinson is not as good a scrummager and the Italians have been performing well in the scrums; Low gets another run out in the shirt, having not covered himself in glory, but neither disgraced himself; time to see what MacArthur has got from the start
Locks: Gray jnr, Gilchrist - both with decent ballast, young Gray to run the lineout, reasonably athletic, let's see how they go
Back row: Harley, Denton, Fusaro - Harley is going to tackle himself to a stand still and wee Chris is going to jackle his heart out; and Dozer is going to spend the next fortnight practising offloading, and I mean everything - if he picks up his teddy in the morning, offload it to his roomie; if he picks his cereal bowl up of the breakfast table, offload it to the poor sod sat next to him; you get the idea
Halfbacks: Cusiter (c), Weir - Cus has to get his chance, wee Greig has looked under par, and I'd like to see how Weir goes behind a pack that might actually be on the front foot for some of the game
Midfield: Scott, Bennett - it's the centre partnership I've been telling you all about since turned 14
Back three: Lamont, Hogg, Seymour - Lamont stays for his experience in an otherwise v young side, his passion and leadership will be important

Subs: Lawson, Dickinson, Welsh, Gray snr, Beattie, Laidlaw, Jackson, Dunbar

[jimbopip]

Asbo, the only quibble I have about selection is that Matt Scott is still short off match fitness. The sensible option must be Dunbar who carries out the childminding duties at Scotstoun.
Gray jr and Gilchrist? Why not since our second row has not functioned well, as a unit, so far.
The Italians got a lot out of France by picking up and driving round the fringes, so The Tackle Monster that is Harley would be in his element. Supported by Beattie who knows how to off-load already.
The key is; take the game to Italy and win.
p.s. Bergamasco against Harley. you could watch that all dat and ignore the other 28.

[BigGee]

In summary that team was probably not far off the best team we could put out on the day. A few underperformed on the day and some of them will probably never be competitive at that level.

I entirely agree with you regarding the backs. Even the selection of S Lamont, who I believe should be replaced, was entirely justifable.

I completely disagree regarding the forwards. The selections of Ross Ford, Jim Hamilton and Ryan Wilson are very hard to defend indeed. Two were on rank form, and the third out of position and unpowered for the task he was given. To get three from eight wrong is a serious miscalculation, and I'm not talking with the benefit of hindsight. I, and many others, made exactly these points prior to the match. The selection of the forwards was completely flawed, and all of the problems we warned about happened. Ford's throwing went to pot and his game disintegrated as a result. Hamilton didn't call the lineout effectively, didn't get around the park enough (nowhere near as effectively as Lawes), workrate not sufficient and referee relations as bad as normal. Wilson made no impact as a ball carrier, as a tackler (and I don't mean simply making tackles, I means making tackles with impact) and in terms of turning over or slowing down ball.

Did we have better options? In my view we did. Both MacArthur and Lawson are better throwers and hookers (in the technical sense) than Ford, even when he's playing well, and, if you want youth, you could look to Fraser Brown (who we capped last summer). You don't need to point out that Brown has barely played pro rugby, I'm fully aware of that, but if SJ is genuinely going to hide behind "experimentation", then he needs to actually experiment. Playing Ford with Lawson on the bench doesn't qualify.

At lock, we have three better options than Jim Hamilton: Richie Gray, Jonny Gray and Grant Gilchrist.

At blindside we have three better options than Ryan Wilson: Kelly Brown, Ali Strokosch and Rob Harley.

I would not have picked Hamilton either, I said that in the post and in the ones I made before the Ireland game. I was more trying to unpick the logic as to why he was picked. We undoubtedly have options in the second row, it is an area of relative strength for us. Hamilton has had his day, he has given us the best he had to offer on many occasions and has 50 caps to show for it but his time has come and gone.

Hooker is so much more difficult as the options are not there. Someone else is going to have to play against Italy though and we are likely left with McArthur and Lawson. I would love to be proved wrong by McArthur but he does seem to be underpowered for international rugby. He deserves his chance though and at least he should be someone who feels that he has everything to prove. Lawson is what he is, a decent club player that has got a shed load of caps for Scotland from the bench, that he would never have got for any other country. Brown looks promising and had a decent game for the A's. Hopefully he will get some game time for Glasgow in this international window and push on.

It is hard to judge the hooker on his own though, without looking at the struggles of the rest of the front row. In scrum terms anyway, a hooker is only as good as his two props and neither of our props are really performing at the moment. This position is going to continue to be a problem I fear. The good ship MacInally has sailed down to Bristol and does not seem to have got a game yet, unlike Rennie who has played 80 mins x2. It is hard to say how that one is going to work out.

The Ryan Wilson experiment is hard to call as well. In the context of the whole pack performance on Saturday, he was far from the worse performer. He is in there for his carrying, link play and from what we see regularly at Glasgow is no wuss defensively either. He lead the A's to an away win against the Saxons as well and so has some leadership qualities as well. If I was going to replace him and I am not sure that I would, it would probably be with Harley, who again played very well in the A's and has never looked out of place when he has won his caps. These players are the future though, not KB and Stroks.

[funnyExiledScot]

At least if SJ did pick ASBO's side we could forgive any mistakes more easily, as he could genuinely say that it's a team for the future, and I think we'd all be keen to see how a second row of J Gray and Gilchrist fared against a big experienced pack like Italy, and how Harley gets on in tandem with Fusaro and Denton.

One thing Harley could usefully work on is his lineout skills. He's never going to be a destructive ball carrier, but imagine if he really honed his lineout skills in the same way as Jason White, it would add a really important string to his bow. We know he's a tackle machine, but if he could perform the dual role of chopper and jumper, then we could probably overlook the fact that he can't catch, pass or run with the ball.

I'd turn up to see ASBO's side play, no question, although I'd be more excited were Seymour moved to the right wing and Fife given a start at 14, or Max Evans given a start. Whilst we aren't running through sides, we may as well pick players with the pace and guile to at least attempt to run round them. I also agree about the offloads, and not just Denton. The whole pack needs to get better at shifting the point of attack - it's one thing England were superb at. A quick offload and recycle really stretches defenses. It's something we used to be better at, but seem to have stopped doing these days.

[RuggerRadge2611]

  More happy thoughts   more happy thoughts   

The side to take the game to Italy and secure the win:

Front row: Grant, MacArthur, Low - Grant is struggling with the new scrum laws, no question and has not been the player of last season, but Dickinson is not as good a scrummager and the Italians have been performing well in the scrums; Low gets another run out in the shirt, having not covered himself in glory, but neither disgraced himself; time to see what MacArthur has got from the start
Locks: Gray jnr, Gilchrist - both with decent ballast, young Gray to run the lineout, reasonably athletic, let's see how they go
Back row: Harley, Denton, Fusaro - Harley is going to tackle himself to a stand still and wee Chris is going to jackle his heart out; and Dozer is going to spend the next fortnight practising offloading, and I mean everything - if he picks up his teddy in the morning, offload it to his roomie; if he picks his cereal bowl up of the breakfast table, offload it to the poor sod sat next to him; you get the idea
Halfbacks: Cusiter (c), Weir - Cus has to get his chance, wee Greig has looked under par, and I'd like to see how Weir goes behind a pack that might actually be on the front foot for some of the game
Midfield: Scott, Bennett - it's the centre partnership I've been telling you all about since turned 14
Back three: Lamont, Hogg, Seymour - Lamont stays for his experience in an otherwise v young side, his passion and leadership will be important

Subs: Lawson, Dickinson, Welsh, Gray snr, Beattie, Laidlaw, Jackson, Dunbar

Just to counter your point Asbo, I would say the change in the scrum laws has hampered Grant but Dickinson has done well against some props with pretty fearsome reputations and had parity at least.

Dickinson's scrummaging without the hit has been excellent IMO, far better than Grants because he uses his smaller and more agile frame to technically put the tighthead on the back foot.

For years Dickinson has been folded up like an accordian in the scrums, no more. He is actually something of a good performer these days.

[RuggerRadge2611]

In summary that team was probably not far off the best team we could put out on the day. A few underperformed on the day and some of them will probably never be competitive at that level.

I entirely agree with you regarding the backs. Even the selection of S Lamont, who I believe should be replaced, was entirely justifable.

I completely disagree regarding the forwards. The selections of Ross Ford, Jim Hamilton and Ryan Wilson are very hard to defend indeed. Two were on rank form, and the third out of position and unpowered for the task he was given. To get three from eight wrong is a serious miscalculation, and I'm not talking with the benefit of hindsight. I, and many others, made exactly these points prior to the match. The selection of the forwards was completely flawed, and all of the problems we warned about happened. Ford's throwing went to pot and his game disintegrated as a result. Hamilton didn't call the lineout effectively, didn't get around the park enough (nowhere near as effectively as Lawes), workrate not sufficient and referee relations as bad as normal. Wilson made no impact as a ball carrier, as a tackler (and I don't mean simply making tackles, I means making tackles with impact) and in terms of turning over or slowing down ball.

Did we have better options? In my view we did. Both MacArthur and Lawson are better throwers and hookers (in the technical sense) than Ford, even when he's playing well, and, if you want youth, you could look to Fraser Brown (who we capped last summer). You don't need to point out that Brown has barely played pro rugby, I'm fully aware of that, but if SJ is genuinely going to hide behind "experimentation", then he needs to actually experiment. Playing Ford with Lawson on the bench doesn't qualify.

At lock, we have three better options than Jim Hamilton: Richie Gray, Jonny Gray and Grant Gilchrist.

At blindside we have three better options than Ryan Wilson: Kelly Brown, Ali Strokosch and Rob Harley.

I would not have picked Hamilton either, I said that in the post and in the ones I made before the Ireland game. I was more trying to unpick the logic as to why he was picked. We undoubtedly have options in the second row, it is an area of relative strength for us. Hamilton has had his day, he has given us the best he had to offer on many occasions and has 50 caps to show for it but his time has come and gone.

Hooker is so much more difficult as the options are not there. Someone else is going to have to play against Italy though and we are likely left with McArthur and Lawson. I would love to be proved wrong by McArthur but he does seem to be underpowered for international rugby. He deserves his chance though and at least he should be someone who feels that he has everything to prove. Lawson is what he is, a decent club player that has got a shed load of caps for Scotland from the bench, that he would never have got for any other country. Brown looks promising and had a decent game for the A's. Hopefully he will get some game time for Glasgow in this international window and push on.

It is hard to judge the hooker on his own though, without looking at the struggles of the rest of the front row. In scrum terms anyway, a hooker is only as good as his two props and neither of our props are really performing at the moment. This position is going to continue to be a problem I fear. The good ship MacInally has sailed down to Bristol and does not seem to have got a game yet, unlike Rennie who has played 80 mins x2. It is hard to say how that one is going to work out.

The Ryan Wilson experiment is hard to call as well. In the context of the whole pack performance on Saturday, he was far from the worse performer. He is in there for his carrying, link play and from what we see regularly at Glasgow is no wuss defensively either. He lead the A's to an away win against the Saxons as well and so has some leadership qualities as well. If I was going to replace him and I am not sure that I would, it would probably be with Harley, who again played very well in the A's and has never looked out of place when he has won his caps. These players are the future though, not KB and Stroks.

The Wilson Experiment isn't hard to call for me. He was a like a wee boy against a Man against POM and it was repeated again against Wood for England.

He is really green, out of position and just doesn't have the skill set to compete with the calibre of blindsides he is up against. Zanni will be his likely opponent against Italy, Nyanga against France and finally Lydiate against Wales.

He could have the all black pack around him and be getting outclassed one on one by his opposite number. He also didn't carry with enough intensity or aggression to justify him being selected as an extra carrier.

He isn't a better option at 6 than any of his opponents. Time to let him develop his play as an 8 and he can Challenge Beattie and Denton when the time is right.

I almost feel like starting a Wilson -Not 6 a bit like Kelly Brown-6 or Matt Scott-12 campaign.

[BigGee]

Robinson would be extremely handy - skillful and versatile. With him on board you could almost imagine us constructing a backline where every player offered a genuine attacking threat. Just imagine.....

Losing Scott Wilson is annoying given the lack of decent tighthead we have. Tommy Allan I'm less fussed about. I'm not convinced he'd add much beyond players like Leonard and Heathcote, and anyway, when is Finn Russell going to emerge as the next big thing??

You do wonder why Robinson would go to Ulster if it is his ambition to play international rugby. Three years is a long time to wait and you never know what will happen in that time. He may not be the same player in his late twenties as he is now and Ireland are likely to have severe competition in their backs with all the good young players around now who will be much more established when they finally get shot of BOD.

It may also be about money as well of course, a lucrative three year contract may be hard to resist and may well be one that we cannot hope to match. We will remain in hope though until the end game is played out.

We lost Wilson when he went to school in England and fell into their system, so hard to blame the SRU for that one. He is not to far off a full cap now and no doubt knew that, there was not much we could offer him to tempt him back.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

At least if SJ did pick ASBO's side we could forgive any mistakes more easily, as he could genuinely say that it's a team for the future, and I think we'd all be keen to see how a second row of J Gray and Gilchrist fared against a big experienced pack like Italy, and how Harley gets on in tandem with Fusaro and Denton.

One thing Harley could usefully work on is his lineout skills. He's never going to be a destructive ball carrier, but imagine if he really honed his lineout skills in the same way as Jason White, it would add a really important string to his bow. We know he's a tackle machine, but if he could perform the dual role of chopper and jumper, then we could probably overlook the fact that he can't catch, pass or run with the ball.

I'd turn up to see ASBO's side play, no question, although I'd be more excited were Seymour moved to the right wing and Fife given a start at 14, or Max Evans given a start. Whilst we aren't running through sides, we may as well pick players with the pace and guile to at least attempt to run round them. I also agree about the offloads, and not just Denton. The whole pack needs to get better at shifting the point of attack - it's one thing England were superb at. A quick offload and recycle really stretches defenses. It's something we used to be better at, but seem to have stopped doing these days.

Arguably Ginger Boab is already fairly adept at lineout duties, having spent a fair chunk of career as a lock (at West) and doubling up as a lock/backrow swap (Warriors). He's particularly good at first jumper on a defensive lineout cos he's fairly light (relatively) and can get lobbed pretty high by his supporters

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

  More happy thoughts   more happy thoughts   

The side to take the game to Italy and secure the win:

Front row: Grant, MacArthur, Low - Grant is struggling with the new scrum laws, no question and has not been the player of last season, but Dickinson is not as good a scrummager and the Italians have been performing well in the scrums; Low gets another run out in the shirt, having not covered himself in glory, but neither disgraced himself; time to see what MacArthur has got from the start
Locks: Gray jnr, Gilchrist - both with decent ballast, young Gray to run the lineout, reasonably athletic, let's see how they go
Back row: Harley, Denton, Fusaro - Harley is going to tackle himself to a stand still and wee Chris is going to jackle his heart out; and Dozer is going to spend the next fortnight practising offloading, and I mean everything - if he picks up his teddy in the morning, offload it to his roomie; if he picks his cereal bowl up of the breakfast table, offload it to the poor sod sat next to him; you get the idea
Halfbacks: Cusiter (c), Weir - Cus has to get his chance, wee Greig has looked under par, and I'd like to see how Weir goes behind a pack that might actually be on the front foot for some of the game
Midfield: Scott, Bennett - it's the centre partnership I've been telling you all about since turned 14
Back three: Lamont, Hogg, Seymour - Lamont stays for his experience in an otherwise v young side, his passion and leadership will be important

Subs: Lawson, Dickinson, Welsh, Gray snr, Beattie, Laidlaw, Jackson, Dunbar

Just to counter your point Asbo, I would say the change in the scrum laws has hampered Grant but Dickinson has done well against some props with pretty fearsome reputations and had parity at least.

Dickinson's scrummaging without the hit has been excellent IMO, far better than Grants because he uses his smaller and more agile frame to technically put the tighthead on the back foot.

For years Dickinson has been folded up like an accordian in the scrums, no more. He is actually something of a good performer these days.

That is true, in fairness to Dickinson, and I deliberately didn't comment on how he has adapted to the new laws (relatively well), but I'd be nervous as feic putting him out there to start against the Italian scrum (quite possibly unfairly, I'll admit)

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

+1 Radge

[RuggerRadge2611]

  More happy thoughts   more happy thoughts   

The side to take the game to Italy and secure the win:

Front row: Grant, MacArthur, Low - Grant is struggling with the new scrum laws, no question and has not been the player of last season, but Dickinson is not as good a scrummager and the Italians have been performing well in the scrums; Low gets another run out in the shirt, having not covered himself in glory, but neither disgraced himself; time to see what MacArthur has got from the start
Locks: Gray jnr, Gilchrist - both with decent ballast, young Gray to run the lineout, reasonably athletic, let's see how they go
Back row: Harley, Denton, Fusaro - Harley is going to tackle himself to a stand still and wee Chris is going to jackle his heart out; and Dozer is going to spend the next fortnight practising offloading, and I mean everything - if he picks up his teddy in the morning, offload it to his roomie; if he picks his cereal bowl up of the breakfast table, offload it to the poor sod sat next to him; you get the idea
Halfbacks: Cusiter (c), Weir - Cus has to get his chance, wee Greig has looked under par, and I'd like to see how Weir goes behind a pack that might actually be on the front foot for some of the game
Midfield: Scott, Bennett - it's the centre partnership I've been telling you all about since turned 14
Back three: Lamont, Hogg, Seymour - Lamont stays for his experience in an otherwise v young side, his passion and leadership will be important

Subs: Lawson, Dickinson, Welsh, Gray snr, Beattie, Laidlaw, Jackson, Dunbar

Just to counter your point Asbo, I would say the change in the scrum laws has hampered Grant but Dickinson has done well against some props with pretty fearsome reputations and had parity at least.

Dickinson's scrummaging without the hit has been excellent IMO, far better than Grants because he uses his smaller and more agile frame to technically put the tighthead on the back foot.

For years Dickinson has been folded up like an accordian in the scrums, no more. He is actually something of a good performer these days.

That is true, in fairness to Dickinson, and I deliberately didn't comment on how he has adapted to the new laws (relatively well), but I'd be nervous as feic putting him out there to start against the Italian scrum (quite possibly unfairly, I'll admit)

To be honest I think he'll do Ok against Castro. I see Dickinson as a similar player to Thomas Domingo, and Castro didn't really pose too much of a problem for him on Sunday.

It's a tough one to call. The new scrum laws are excellent. It might actually change the way a front row is picked. Guys like Adam Jones, Ryan Grant and in particlular Gethin Jenkins have looked to really struggle.

Guys like Cian Healy, Ali Dickinson, Thomas Domingo (who was already awesome) have improved a lot becase they can deploy their technical strengths instead of relying on brute force.

Granted Healy has always been a big unit but IMO the new scrum laws have given him an even bigger advantage in the scrum.

[BigGee]

I am slowly being persuaded!

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