Ongoing NFL Discussion Thread Part 3

[Derbyblue]

First topic message reminder :

Eagles traded Dion Lewis to Cleveland for Emmanuel Acho. Decent backup Lewis, just not as good as Brown.

Basically depth for depth, though I did think we were fine at RB with Richardson, Hardesty and Ogbonnaya but Acho wouldn't have fit the new 3-4 scheme so can't really complain about the deal too much and maybe one of those back ups gets sent off in a trade somewhere during the draft.

[GSC]

Look we don't have a 6th but we really like you

Then use none of our 3 7ths on him lol.

Think the likelier scenario is we agreed to sign him as an UDFA and he decided he'd rather play for Chip. Can't see us actually signing a guy while he's draft eligible

[sodhat]

Isn't the problem that an agreement was made in the 6th round and he took himself off the draft board?

He probably should have not said anything...

[GSC]

Yeah, it's pretty much like free agent tampering though. Everybody does it but the NFL only gives a toss when someone gets caught with their hand in the cookie jar

[Colan (niner)]

Nothing wrong with it in my eyes. Regardless of what he said, Shepard imo wouldn't have been drafted at all so quite right to look out for himself if he knows a team likes him. Plus lets be honest, nobody will care because he is a nobody, not a story at all in my eyes

[Derbyblue]

There won't be any punishment, is it really any different to what happened last year where Chandler Harnish (Mr Irrelevant) said he had agreed to go to San Diego before the draft was over?

@corryjoel19h
Blackmon's suspension should also void $10,772,248 of guarantees in his '13-'15 contract years.
Expensive 'mistake' for Blackmon to make.

[GSC]

Yeah its pretty much the same. In fact the Colts took him because his agent said he was going to SD otherwise.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Ian Rapoport ‏@RapSheet
From Total Access: I'm told parties view Branden Albert deal as "dead." Chiefs will now turn their attention to a long-term deal for Albert.

Bet the Dolphins are glad they took Jordan now...

[mikeygnfl]

Just some random observations:-
1) Tim Tebow was born in the Philippines so can't become president.
2) Cleveland Browns + Tim Tebow = #clebow
3) Had the Cleveland Browns not been 'relocated' in Baltimore they would have won two Super Bowls by now.

[Derbyblue]

Just some random observations:-
2) Cleveland Browns + Tim Tebow = #clebow
3) Had the Cleveland Browns not been 'relocated' in Baltimore they would have won two Super Bowls by now.

Yes thanks for pointing that out

I doubt we have an interest in Tebow.

[sodhat]

Who are the Browns QBs at the moment?

I know you've got Weeden, but aside from that I'm forgetting them all since Colt McCoy went off to the 9ers.

[Derbyblue]

Who are the Browns QBs at the moment?

I know you've got Weeden, but aside from that I'm forgetting them all since Colt McCoy went off to the 9ers.

Jason Campbell is the back up both I would have above Tebow.

[cherriesfna]

bold preds for 2013

1. NFC west sends 3 teams to play-offs
2. Dolphins win 10 games
3. Browns + bengals reach play-offs
4. Romo has an All-pro season
5. Geno Smith is Mark Sanchez 2.0 ( not that bold)

[sodhat]

Who are the Browns QBs at the moment?

I know you've got Weeden, but aside from that I'm forgetting them all since Colt McCoy went off to the 9ers.

Jason Campbell is the back up both I would have above Tebow.

Campbell is underrated and could have been a starter for a while in Oakland if he hadn't gone down hurt.

Tebow brings too much attention to a franchise so unless it is a fame hungry one like Dallas, I can't see any use in adding him as a back up.

[sodhat]

bold preds for 2013

1. NFC west sends 3 teams to play-offs
2. Dolphins win 10 games
3. Browns + bengals reach play-offs
4. Romo has an All-pro season
5. Geno Smith is Mark Sanchez 2.0 ( not that bold)

I don't think it's too bold to believe three NFC West sides go to the playoffs. The Rams are improved and good in the divisional games, and the Hawks/9ers are two of the strongest sides in football. Could well work out to be an all NFC West conference championship game.

[GSC]

Even forgoing the attention, Tebow is a terrible QB

[sodhat]

He'll always have that playoffs win to remember...

And obviously the shellacking when he then faced Brady.

[Derbyblue]

Who are the Browns QBs at the moment?

I know you've got Weeden, but aside from that I'm forgetting them all since Colt McCoy went off to the 9ers.

Jason Campbell is the back up both I would have above Tebow.

Campbell is underrated and could have been a starter for a while in Oakland if he hadn't gone down hurt.

Tebow brings too much attention to a franchise so unless it is a fame hungry one like Dallas, I can't see any use in adding him as a back up.

Yeah I think Campbell is a very good back up option for us proven experience as a starter and no reason he couldn't challenge Weeden for the starts if given a chance, yes think you really made a mistake adding Palmer. I think the media circus surrounding Tebow isn't even the problem he's just a poor QB and apparently not willing to change position so who is really going to want him on their team when the best thing about him was his running ability but he won't change from QB if it wasn't for Denver's run game and defense nobody would care about Tebow.

bold preds for 2013

1. NFC west sends 3 teams to play-offs
2. Dolphins win 10 games
3. Browns + bengals reach play-offs
4. Romo has an All-pro season
5. Geno Smith is Mark Sanchez 2.0 ( not that bold)

1- Really not that bold St. Louis didn't fall that far short of it last season.
2- Can see it happening considering who they've added but succesful free agency does guarantee a succesful season.
3- Bengals to reach the play offs isn't bold considering they were there last year, would love to believe but I see it as being a year or two too soon for Cleveland.
4-
5- I don't know he still doesn't really have any weapons to throw too, no super reliable WR/TE to be his safety blanket, no real idea how Ivory will hold up for 16 games starting when he's used to a small rotational role. Could always sit him for the year to learn until Sanchez messes up so bad they have to play him.

Have forgotten to post this a number of times but apparently St. Louis contacted all teams from 6-10 about trading up in the draft, felt they had to jump New York and were worried they may have to jump past Buffalo, from what I read it seemed like it would have been the swap of 1sts and a 2nd but didn't say what else was offered up to Cleveland.

[GSC]

Good god at 81-90 on the top 100 list.

Jones, Pollard, Fletcher, Woodson and Kaepernick shouldn't be on it at all. Could debate Steve Smith. Wake and Harvin underrated.

[GSC]

That said, Jones did show toughness, leadership and performed in the playoffs, so clearly hes a top 100 player.

[Number-25]

Good god at 81-90 on the top 100 list.

Jones, Pollard, Fletcher, Woodson and Kaepernick shouldn't be on it at all. Could debate Steve Smith. Wake and Harvin underrated.

I'm assuming GSC that you didn't mean that London Fletcher shouldn't be in the top 100 hundred list and that you were just referring to some of the other guys you mentioned?

[Colan (niner)]

Good god at 81-90 on the top 100 list.

Jones, Pollard, Fletcher, Woodson and Kaepernick shouldn't be on it at all. Could debate Steve Smith. Wake and Harvin underrated.

Fletcher should definitely be on there. Others shouldn't. If Kaepernick played the full season then of course but that'll come this season

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Daryl Washington arrested on assault charges

[Derbyblue]

Skip Bayless goes OTT on Johnny Manziel: "Yes, I'm already ready to go out on this limb faster than Johnny Football gets to end zones: He'll be a National Football League STAR. Everything about this kid is RARE. We're talking Michael Vick meets Doug Flutie meets Fran Tarkenton meets Brett Favre meets Drew Brees -- with a sometimes dangerous dose of Broadway Joe Namath thrown in off the field." http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9234917/johnny-football-nfl-prospects

[GSC]

Skip Bayless

[Derbyblue]

Skip Bayless

Not sure what your point is or if you've read the article (I didn't read it all...) but one of the best lines went like "I've become really good at grading and evaluating QBs" I expect most people laughed at line while thinking of his love for Tebow.

[NYJ]

I just don't see it with Manziel yet and that article has made me feel a lot better about my opinion. Skip Bayless is one of the worst human beings in the world.

[GSC]

Skip Bayless is employed to be controversial, not because he has any insight whatsoever to share

[GSC]

And yeah whenever I see the name Skip Bayless attached to any piece, I usually stop reading.

[Derbyblue]

I just don't see it with Manziel yet and that article has made me feel a lot better about my opinion. Skip Bayless is one of the worst human beings in the world.

Majority of scouts online don't seem to see it either, but Skip doesn't seem to realise he's going to make it far worse for the kid, if you set him up with that impressive comparison you're basically already saying the guy's a HoFer going to be stupidly hard for Manziel to live up to that. There is a video on youtube where Stephen A. Smith was basically just laughing at him for setting up that stupidly high level for the kid to reach, and talked about how apparently not very long ago Skip was "worried" about him.

[Colan (niner)]

I have confidence Manziel will make it in the NFL but Bayless takes irrelevance to a whole new level

[GSC]

Seems like all 3 Tackles in the top 4 picks will play RT this year. Jacksonville are a bit weirder though, with Monroe at LT, as opposed to Brandon Albert playing out his tag or a 31 year old Jason Peters. Bit surprised they didnt tab Jordan or Ansah for a pass rushing role there.

[NYJ]

JJ Watt twice a year means you need a great OL.

[GSC]

Having to go through Peyton Manning or Tom Brady to win the SB means you need a great pass rusher.

Drafting a Tackle to deal with Watt is an interesting one I must say.

[Derbyblue]

JJ Watt twice a year means you need a great OL.

Do you really spend the #2 pick on a RT who has never played RT because of 1 player twice a year? Haven't really watched that much of the Texans recently but lots of people were saying it was a stupid explanation as he would only be facing Watt on run downs.

[GSC]

I like what the jags did in general, but I'm not a fan of that pick.

[NYJ]

Obviously they didn't just pick him because of JJ Watt but it always helps to have 2 great Tackles. Monroe is a FA after this season as well.

[Derbyblue]

Miami Dolphins have signed Tyson Clabo assume this means Jonathan Martin stays at LT with Clabo filling the gap at RT.

I agree NYJ that it helps to have 2 great tackles and especially in an offense built around MJD running and where Gabbert has been sacked 62 times in 25 games (Henne was sacked 28 times too) an O-line is important I personally just don't see it as being a team with the level of depth where as a fan of that franchise I would be happy to see a recent #8 and a #2 pick being present on the O-line.

[Colan (niner)]

Miami Dolphins have signed Tyson Clabo assume this means Jonathan Martin stays at LT with Clabo filling the gap at RT.

I agree NYJ that it helps to have 2 great tackles and especially in an offense built around MJD running and where Gabbert has been sacked 62 times in 25 games (Henne was sacked 28 times too) an O-line is important I personally just don't see it as being a team with the level of depth where as a fan of that franchise I would be happy to see a recent #8 and a #2 pick being present on the O-line.

I always preach o-line. As a 49ers fan I understand the value and the two we took in the first round in 2010 not only eventually gave us the best line in the league, but formed a big part of our identity. You build from the inside out and I think you need a good o-line if you don't have an elite QB like Rodgers

[twelve283]

I always preach o-line. As a 49ers fan I understand the value and the two we took in the first round in 2010 not only eventually gave us the best line in the league, but formed a big part of our identity. You build from the inside out and I think you need a good o-line if you don't have an elite QB like Rodgers

You could make the argument that the 49ers have the best OL in the league but I don't think it's a slam dunk. If you said the best group of run blockers then I might be inclined to agree with you but i'd argue the Patriots (bias alert) and others have a better all-round OL.

Nate Solder is similar to Joe Staley - he's very effective in the run game, can't count the number of times i've seen him own his opponent on a crucial block, and while he's also a solid pass protector that part of his game's not quite on the same level as his run blocking. Logan Mankins is still one of the top guards in the league, we might be overpaying him (he's a guard!) but he still gets it done in pass protection and as a run blocker. Sebastian Vollmer is one of, if not the best, RTs in the league and i'm happy to argue that with anyone. Possibly a slight weakness at RG last season as Dan Connolly stepped in for Brian Waters, run blocking is OK but pass protection has been an issue at times. Marcus Cannon looked OK in spot duty when lined up at RT and I feel a kick inside would make our line even stronger. Honestly outside of your RG there is not a single player I would swap along the OL, thats not to say I don't like your OL, I do, but I just like ours better.

[Colan (niner)]

I always preach o-line. As a 49ers fan I understand the value and the two we took in the first round in 2010 not only eventually gave us the best line in the league, but formed a big part of our identity. You build from the inside out and I think you need a good o-line if you don't have an elite QB like Rodgers

You could make the argument that the 49ers have the best OL in the league but I don't think it's a slam dunk. If you said the best group of run blockers then I might be inclined to agree with you but i'd argue the Patriots (bias alert) and others have a better all-round OL.

Nate Solder is similar to Joe Staley - he's very effective in the run game, can't count the number of times i've seen him own his opponent on a crucial block, and while he's also a solid pass protector that part of his game's not quite on the same level as his run blocking. Logan Mankins is still one of the top guards in the league, we might be overpaying him (he's a guard!) but he still gets it done in pass protection and as a run blocker. Sebastian Vollmer is one of, if not the best, RTs in the league and i'm happy to argue that with anyone. Possibly a slight weakness at RG last season as Dan Connolly stepped in for Brian Waters, run blocking is OK but pass protection has been an issue at times. Marcus Cannon looked OK in spot duty when lined up at RT and I feel a kick inside would make our line even stronger. Honestly outside of your RG there is not a single player I would swap along the OL, thats not to say I don't like your OL, I do, but I just like ours better.

I can see your point of view too, suppose the Pats line is more finesse from what I've seen and that is a different kind of effective. I think when you look at the age of our group though, there is so much potential there and they can get even better. Way I see it, Iupati and Davis are the top young guard and right tackles in the league and they are already pro bowl/all pro level. And then Boone (so underrated) came in last season as a 6'8" guard and was one of the best in the NFL. It is saying something when the weak link is our first round pro bowl left tackle who many teams would love. Bear in mind most think Goodwin will be cut this season because we have two young guys ready to step up. Most likely the average age of our line will be 25 next season, don't think in terms of both talent and potential to get much better any other team can match that. And I think the Pats would jump on Boone or Davis if they had a shot!

Both great though and this sums it up. 1 and 2 of course

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/28/ranking-the-2012-offensive-lines/4/

[twelve283]

I always preach o-line. As a 49ers fan I understand the value and the two we took in the first round in 2010 not only eventually gave us the best line in the league, but formed a big part of our identity. You build from the inside out and I think you need a good o-line if you don't have an elite QB like Rodgers

You could make the argument that the 49ers have the best OL in the league but I don't think it's a slam dunk. If you said the best group of run blockers then I might be inclined to agree with you but i'd argue the Patriots (bias alert) and others have a better all-round OL.

Nate Solder is similar to Joe Staley - he's very effective in the run game, can't count the number of times i've seen him own his opponent on a crucial block, and while he's also a solid pass protector that part of his game's not quite on the same level as his run blocking. Logan Mankins is still one of the top guards in the league, we might be overpaying him (he's a guard!) but he still gets it done in pass protection and as a run blocker. Sebastian Vollmer is one of, if not the best, RTs in the league and i'm happy to argue that with anyone. Possibly a slight weakness at RG last season as Dan Connolly stepped in for Brian Waters, run blocking is OK but pass protection has been an issue at times. Marcus Cannon looked OK in spot duty when lined up at RT and I feel a kick inside would make our line even stronger. Honestly outside of your RG there is not a single player I would swap along the OL, thats not to say I don't like your OL, I do, but I just like ours better.

I can see your point of view too, suppose the Pats line is more finesse from what I've seen and that is a different kind of effective. I think when you look at the age of our group though, there is so much potential there and they can get even better. Way I see it, Iupati and Davis are the top young guard and right tackles in the league and they are already pro bowl/all pro level. And then Boone (so underrated) came in last season as a 6'8" guard and was one of the best in the NFL. It is saying something when the weak link is our first round pro bowl left tackle who many teams would love. Bear in mind most think Goodwin will be cut this season because we have two young guys ready to step up. Most likely the average age of our line will be 25 next season, don't think in terms of both talent and potential to get much better any other team can match that. And I think the Pats would jump on Boone or Davis if they had a shot!
Both great though and this sums it up. 1 and 2 of course

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/28/ranking-the-2012-offensive-lines/4/

Had a quick glance at the PFF article just now. Some people like to rip PFF, i'm not interested in that, I think the raw data they collect can be very useful when interpreted correctly (and I wish they still made it available free of charge). Here's the thing with PFF though, and this is a personal opinion based on reading their stuff over the last few years, I don't trust their ability to correctly evaluate and identify what's happening on the field and why it's happening on a consistent basis. Perhaps even more to the point I don't agree with the way they grade certain things/outcomes in a play. My point is they can identify the result of a play but it's their grading of the players actions as positive or negative that I take issue with.

I noticed they give the 49ers a pass blocking grade of 10th and the Patriots are 16th which is interesting because in the regular season the Patriots OL gave up a total of 94 QB sacks and hits (27 sacks and 67 QB hits) while the 49ers OL gave up a total of 109 (41 sacks and 68 QB hits). I think there is little doubt we had more drop backs than you guys plus you could add in other factors such as Tom Brady's lack of mobility when compared to Alex Smith and Colin Kaepernick.

I'll give you Boone, though i'd wan't to see Marcus Cannon at guard before that, but in terms of talent i'm not buying Anthony Davis over Sebastian Vollmer. Maybe if we factor in Vollmer's injury (and give it a lot of weight in the decision), maybe...but personally i'd still lean towards Vollmer.

[GSC]

Easier to block for a guy who slides well in the pocket like Brady than a mobile QB though.

[Colan (niner)]

Easier to block for a guy who slides well in the pocket like Brady than a mobile QB though.

I think it requires a lot less movement an athletic ability. If I were a big man, I'd hate to block for an athletic QB

[twelve283]

Easier to block for a guy who slides well in the pocket like Brady than a mobile QB though.

A lot of factors go into it, you could make that argument, you could also say Brady gets the ball out faster which makes him easier to block for. If Brady slides to avoid an initial rush he's still in the pocket. To me, it looks like the statistics say the Patriots OL is better in pass protection though.

[twelve283]

Easier to block for a guy who slides well in the pocket like Brady than a mobile QB though.

I think it requires a lot less movement an athletic ability. If I were a big man, I'd hate to block for an athletic QB

Ha, I haven't looked at the numbers but lets not get into who's line is more athletic, I doubt you'd win that.

[GSC]

Neither of you would win the athletic argument

[NYJ]

Two areas I think PFF struggle are Offensive Linemen and Safety's. It must be difficult to analyse a Safety when he's not in picture most of the time. Jets 3rd best OL in the league? Do me a favour, love.

[GSC]

They had the eagles at 19. Although they did have the 6th player in the league there

[twelve283]

Neither of you would win the athletic argument

Can I just say that I loved both Jared Veldheer and Stefen Wisniewski out of college, wanted Patriots to draft them both. Veldheer in 2010 I saw as another Vollmer and we were looking for a Matt Light replacement, 2010 looks like a good year for OTs.

[GSC]

I'm sure you can lol

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