Ireland moving forward

First topic message reminder :

Feel for the Irish boys after yesterday but a few things stood out for me:

We didn't score in 2nd half so I find it hard to say we deserved to win. We still struggle to close out games similar to the French game at Croke Park. I feel these issues have a lot to do with self belief which I think we as nation have struggled with for a long time in sport if I'm being honest. I feel this is JS big challenge with this team and if he can get them believing and producing performances like yesterday on a consistent basis then we'll do some damage in 6 nations and world cups.

Ireland are a different team when they keep ball in hand and don't kick the ball away constantly. This was a really pleasing part of yesterday with all the players backing themselves and each other to keep the ball in hand to put the ABs under pressure. This is without doubt the way forward as shown by the ABs themselves. Encouraging signs from the new coaching set up.

The effort and commitment yesterday was immense. It was the sort of display that made you proud to be Irish. SOB, Healy, POC and Heaslip in particular produced some of the best individual performances I've seen in a long time.

Congrats to NZ. Still the benchmark for how rugby should be played.

Also great to see the new Lansdowne Road rocking.

The silver lining of the injuries is that we have decent replacements for Healy, Best and O'Brien that will gain valuable test experience. However, we will miss that little bit extra that they can give that sometimes makes all the differenece; see Leinster failing to complete the muggings of Northampton and Edinburgh while missing O'Brien and Healy.

I have honestly no idea what the centre partnership is going to look like but the coaching staff have a job on their hands even narrowing down a squad with the potential options in a few positions;

Centre (not saying it's strong, just that there are many options)
-O'Driscoll
-D'Arcy
-Marshall
-Henshaw
-Earls
-Fitzgerald

Flyhalf (This, I am saying is strong)
-Sexton
-Jackson
-Hanrahan
-Madigan

Wing (Stacked)
-Bowe
-Zebo
-Earls
-Gilroy
-Fitz

-McFadden (if fit)
-D.Kearney
-Trimble


Ulster, Munster and Connacht fans may argue the inclusion of a few more in those lists.

Is Best out for the start of the 6 nations as well? I thought he was back soon.

Missing our three best players is not a good way to start for Schmidt.

Best will be back in the next few weeks, unless he suffers another set-back.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Any thoughts on Jordi Murphy getting called into the irish squad this 6 nations?  Or is it too early for him?

He is a contender. I'd have him ahead of Coughlan or Wilson anyway. He just needs a run of games now with leinster.

Its not all bad though. Ireland will be without SOB and Healy but since the autumn tests Marmion, Jordi Murphy, Cave, O'Donnell, Henderson, Donnacha Ryan, Martin Moore, Zebo, Gilroy, Earls, Ruddock, Kilcoyne,  James Cronin, Griffin etc are all there to be called upon. Theres a bit of strength in depth developing in Irish rugby now.


I'm hoping for regular rotation and a lot of competition in the squad. Thats how you get players to perform regularly.

Sexton will be the starting 10 for the first match but if he does not perform, will he be replaced? Its clear that the move to France has affected his game and he seems to be permanently tired.

For me, I would opt for Jackson but I believe that Madigan would get the nod ahead of him should Sexton be injured or rested.

Nachos Jones wrote:Sexton will be the starting 10 for the first match but if he does not perform, will he be replaced? Its clear that the move to France has affected his game and he seems to be permanently tired.

For me, I would opt for Jackson but I believe that Madigan would get the nod ahead of him should Sexton be injured or rested.

I'd agree with you if there was a contender close to his standard. I'm not sure any of the other 10's are there yet. Madigan has gone backwards. Jackson has improved a lot but he's no Sexton just yet.

But going to France was definitely a mistake. Would his hamstring have tightened up against the All Blacks prior to that vital kick if he hadn't played 13 matches in 12 weeks before the AI's?

Jared Payne needs to be capped.

Feckless, at the time when Sexton moved to France, I knew it would be a mistake and even predicted that if he did not return to Ireland after a year then within 2 years he would be in the International wilderness.

Neither Jackson or Madigan are at his high class yet but right now (based on current performances) I would say that both could be playing better than him.

If there's no Heineken Cup in the coming years, then all our best players will be in France soon, so Sexton won't be at a disadvantage.

We need the depth to cover the injuries.  But we also need the depth because to get through a 6 Nations we will need to have a squad to be called on as needed. I'm hoping there is smarter management of players rather than the classic Irish approach of picking a first XV for the opening game and only changing it up due to injuries or severe media criticism.

I'm also looking forward to see what effect Joe starts to have on the non-leinster backs.  He is an attacking mind and loves running moves with the backline. The likes of Gilroy, Zebo, Henshaw, Earls. I'm looking forward to how they play/approach games by the end of the 6Ns and what attitude/approach they go back to their provinces with.

Who are we definitly missing for the start of the 6 nations? Is it just SOB and Healy?

Will Zebo, D. Ryan or Fitsgerald (presume he missed the connacht game through injury?) miss any of it?

JayMaster3000 wrote:Jared Payne needs to be capped.

I think it needs to be at 15 as well. I thought he could slot into 13, but when he plays 15 he really has time and space to hurt teams and mastermind the counterattack. It's definitely his best position. No harm to Rob Kearney, but he can't offer the same range of skills Payne brings to the position.

I think Henshaw deserves some time at 13, he has played there the last few weeks and looked really, really good. He is powerful, quick, good boot and has good hands. I'd be interested to see what he could do in there.

Jackson is defintely ahead of Madigan but if it is a shoot out for the bench spot Madigan may still get it due to his impact which Jackson doesn't have to the same extent and also his versatility.

Hope Fitz isn't out cos he has been playing a blinder in recent weeks.

Hope Moore gets some time ahead of Ross too.

Tuohy looked viscous in his last 2 games as well.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I think Henshaw deserves some time at 13, he has played there the last few weeks and looked really, really good. He is powerful, quick, good boot and has good hands. I'd be interested to see what he could do in there.

Jackson is defintely ahead of Madigan but if it is a shoot out for the bench spot Madigan may still get it due to his impact which Jackson doesn't have to the same extent and also his versatility.

Hope Fitz isn't out cos he has been playing a blinder in recent weeks.

Hope Moore gets some time ahead of Ross too.

Tuohy looked viscous in his last 2 games as well.

Thick and sticky? Bit harsh    Tuohy had a good game v Munster, and I believe should be picked for 6Ns. Also be a bit harsh calling his play vacuous    In what way? He wasn't arguing constantly with the ref...

Notch wrote:

JayMaster3000 wrote:Jared Payne needs to be capped.

I think it needs to be at 15 as well. I thought he could slot into 13, but when he plays 15 he really has time and space to hurt teams and mastermind the counterattack. It's definitely his best position. No harm to Rob Kearney, but he can't offer the same range of skills Payne brings to the position.

Totally agree.
Payne is a decent 13 and better than the alternatives,although Henshaw is starting to impress, but he is outstanding 15.


His running lines and tactical kicking are vastly superior to Kearney.
By next autumn I would like to see Henshaw 13, Payne15

Notch wrote:

JayMaster3000 wrote:Jared Payne needs to be capped.

I think it needs to be at 15 as well. I thought he could slot into 13, but when he plays 15 he really has time and space to hurt teams and mastermind the counterattack. It's definitely his best position. No harm to Rob Kearney, but he can't offer the same range of skills Payne brings to the position.

Not eligable until November I think.

We are quite vunerable at hooker for the 6N. All the following are injured:

Rory Best - broken arm. Might miss the start of the 6N. Though talk of him playing Ulsters next match? Has done some training.  
Richardt Strauss - heart condition, had op and could be back in a couple of months.
Damian Varley (sick?) - Think he played v Ulster.
Mike Sherry (cruciate injury, long term)

Others: Rob Herring, Aaron Dundon are fit but way down the pecking order. Not sure if either are for Ireland anyway, Kiwi and Saffer.
So Sean Cronin is the only decent hooker really with game time.

Best current Irish XV:

15 Rob Kearney *
14 Dave Kearney
13 Darren Cave
12 Luke Marshall
11 Craig Gilroy
10 Paddy Jackson
9 Connor Murray
8 Jamie Heaslip
7 Sean O'Brien
6 Rhys Ruddock
5 Paul O'Connell
4 Dan Touhy
3 Mike Ross
2 Rory Best
1 Cian Healy

Bench: McGrath, Cronin, Fitzpatrick, Toner, Diack, Marmion, Sexton, Fitzgerald.

* Payne when eligible

It is a strong team Rodders - but I have been a bit concerned about Jackson/Marshall in defence. Not just in the AI games, but occasionally for Ulster.
Up against Sexton/Darcy - it may still be a bit too soon.

Also judging by the recent Munster vs Ulster game - I would have the Munster tight-head on the bench ahead of Fitzpatrick. He really gave Court a rough evening.

I am guessing you are going with current form? Hard to judge Bowe, as he has not had much game time of late - but if fit, he starts for me :-)

If it is current form that why are Best and Healy in the team. Both injured.

GunsGerms wrote:We are quite vunerable at hooker for the 6N. All the following are injured:

Rory Best - broken arm. Might miss the start of the 6N. Though talk of him playing Ulsters next match? Has done some training.  

Expected to play some part against Montpellier and play against Leicester. He's taking full contact in training. Not sure where this rumour he'd miss the Six Nations started, he was always slated to return in January. Of course, maybe he'll have a set back or get injured again but it was always touch and go whether he'd make it back for the next two Heineken Cup games not the Six Nations.

GunsGerms wrote:

Notch wrote:

JayMaster3000 wrote:Jared Payne needs to be capped.

I think it needs to be at 15 as well. I thought he could slot into 13, but when he plays 15 he really has time and space to hurt teams and mastermind the counterattack. It's definitely his best position. No harm to Rob Kearney, but he can't offer the same range of skills Payne brings to the position.

Not eligable until November I think.

September I think, he'll win his first cap in the autumn tests all being well.

Yeah a mixture of recent form and proven ability....in truth I wouldn't drop Sexton or Bowe but neither have been in great form in the last while whereas some of their younger compatriots have been in stellar form, so I'm going for the bold picks.

Tight call between Fitzgerald and Gilroy on the left. McCarthy and Toner in good form but Touhy is the form lock for me.

Hanaran and Henshaw just missing out.

Also recently watched iHumph and TOL and they were pretty dire.

2bFair wrote:It is a strong team Rodders - but I have been a bit concerned about Jackson/Marshall in defence. Not just in the AI games, but occasionally for Ulster.
Up against Sexton/Darcy - it may still be a bit too soon.

Also judging by the recent Munster vs Ulster game -  I would have the Munster tight-head on the bench ahead of Fitzpatrick. He really gave Court a rough evening.

I am guessing you are going with current form? Hard to judge Bowe, as he has not had much game time of late - but if fit, he starts for me :-)

I actually think Marshall has been very good defensively. I would argue that he is a better defender at 12 than D'Arcy nowadays. Jackson not so much, he has been brushed off quite a bit recently, but he is usually quite solid.

rodders wrote:Best current Irish XV:

15 Rob Kearney *
14 Dave Kearney
13 Darren Cave
12 Luke Marshall
11 Craig Gilroy
10 Paddy Jackson
9 Connor Murray
8 Jamie Heaslip
7 Sean O'Brien
6 Rhys Ruddock
5 Paul O'Connell
4 Dan Touhy
3 Mike Ross
2 Rory Best
1 Cian Healy

Bench: McGrath, Cronin, Fitzpatrick, Toner, Diack, Marmion, Sexton, Fitzgerald.

* Payne when eligible

Here if we're discussing best current Irish team there has to be some sort of coherence i.e. do injured players count ect.

My team for the 6N, considering Healy, Best and Henry will play some part. Its also based on probable form, as in the form players were in before injury.

1.Healy
2.Best
3.Fitzpatrick
4.Tuohy
5.POC
6.Murphy
7.Henry
8.Heaslip
9.Murray
10.Sexton
11.Fitzgerald
12.Marshall
13.Cave
14.Earls
15.Henshaw

16.McGrath (Cronin if Healy is out) 17.Cronin 18.Moore 19.Henderson 20.POM 21.Marmion 22.Jackson 23.Gilroy

Front Row - Would like to see some more of Cronin as in James. Heard there are some injuries to Varley and Sherry, don't know who's next in line. The Mike Ross thing also has to stop.

2nd Row - POC and Tuohy way ahead of the competition. Hendo on the bench for impact. I'd also have McCarthy ahead of Toner. Not sure when Ryan is back.

Back Row - Murphy's been class and can slot in anywhere across the back row. If POM regains form I'd have him in there. Need to see more of TOD. I'd have Ruddock behind that lot.

Scrum Half - Anyone bar Murray and Marmion in the 22 and we have a serious problem with Schmidt and selection policies.

Out Half - I know Jackson probably has the better form but I've seen enough form Sexton to still go with him. It's not leinster bias it's just i believe in him enough to get his stuff together for the 6N.

Centre - BOD's gotta go. I really want to see more of Fitz at centre but it seems unlikely. Henshaw has potential but he's looked class at 15. Would also like to see Marshall at 13.

Wing - So many options, Kearney, Trimble, McFadden just can't really be considered. Fitz the form winger with Gilroy but Earls has been very good at as well. I think at Leinster or Ulster Earls would be a lot better. Between Gilroy and Fitz for left so went with Fitz, either one I wouldn't really mind tbh. Can't really judge Bowe ore Zebo.

Fullback - Kearney is nailed on which I think is a shame. I'd have Zebo or Earls over him as well as Henshaw.

As has been confirmed by a 100% reliable Ulster supporter Payne has a central contract for 2 year starting at the beginning of next year

I think in the absence of Bowe finding his best form Dave Kearney is the best option on the right wing, a natural right wing...although Gilroy is also better on the right than left imo....Trimble is totally out of sorts this season.

Kearney is in poor form too - other option is Gilroy at the back and Fitzgerald and D Kearney on the wings. Earls, Henshaw and McFadden are bench options at best imo.

BOD has been so poor, bar the Saints game, he can't be considered on merit so Cave has to start alongside Marshall imo, although D'arcy is playing well.

The other thing is the units - Marshall and Gilroy play much better alongside Jackson who is the catalyst for a lot of Ulster's back play with his passing - if you go with D'arcy and Sexton then you don't get the same attacking potential or cohesion - so for me it's either:

10 Sexton 12 D'arcy 13 BOD or
10 Jackson 12 Marshall 13 Cave

O'Brien is the best player in the country so have put him down at 7 even though he's out, Henry would be the replacement. Ruddock and Heaslip both in super form ahead of O'Mahoney, Diack and Coughlan.

Lock is looking very competitive with the Leinster duo of Toner and McCarthy a strong unit but O'Connell starts and Touhy offers more than anyone on current form and along with Ruddock brings a bit more physicality and dynamism.

In theory you could have the whole Leinster pack plus O'Connell and Best but Touhy is in too good form to ignore.

geoff998rugby wrote:As has been confirmed by a 100% reliable Ulster supporter Payne has a central contract for 2 year starting at the beginning of next year

   great news, best attacking back in Europe alongside Sivavatu imo - the ABs missed a gem here, I wouldn't swap him for Ben and Conrad Smith combined   .

rodders wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:As has been confirmed by a 100% reliable Ulster supporter Payne has a central contract for 2 year starting at the beginning of next year

   great news, best attacking back in Europe alongside Sivavatu imo - the ABs missed a gem here, I wouldn't swap him for Ben and Conrad Smith combined   .

Jeez I would. Ben Smith was incredible last year. Phenominal try scoring record.

Yeah Bens good, he 'd do a good job carrying Jared's kit bag alright....

rodders wrote:I think in the absence of Bowe finding his best form Dave Kearney is the best option on the right wing, a natural right wing...although Gilroy is also better on the right than left imo....Trimble is totally out of sorts this season.

How can you possibly justify having Dave ahead of Fitz and Earls.

Team I think Schmidt will go for :

Healy,Best,Ross,POC,Tuohy,POM,Henry,Heaslip,Murray,Sexton,Fitz,Marshall,BOD,Bowe,Kearney.

Not 100% sure whether Bowe will be picked even if he is back, same with Zebo. We have so many options there it could be anyone. Besides that though I'd put money on the rest to start. Surely he can't go on ignoring Tuohy.

I think our front 5 and back line are definitely good enough to win the championship, just not so sure about our back row without SOB.

Fitz doesnt have a great rugby brain unfortunately. His timing is very poor for a back.

GunsGerms wrote:Fitz doesnt have a great rugby brain unfortunately. His timing is very poor for a back.

Sorry but I must disagree, did you see his backhanded pass to Jordi Murphy against Ulster and his running lines against Northampton?

He's in really good form at the moment, maybe the best I have seen him and when you add to that his experience and strength in defence, you would have to say Fitz will start for Ireland.

He is probably the back who tends to be ahead of the pass more than any other back in Ireland maybe the NH. The amount of moves and good play that is botched because Fitz' timing is off is absolutely ridiculous.

His pass to Murphy was good but the timing I refer to is with regards to support lines so Murphy takes the credit there. He had a good game v Northampton but such games are few and far between for Fitz.

Ive said it a million times he has all the attributes of a great player but they all seem to get scrambled by his brain when you put them all together on a rugby pitch. For that reason he is pretty average.

In 27 caps for Ireland he has scored 2 tries. A truely apauling record for someone of his "potential" in his position. Yet I'd say he has the record for the most amount of tries butchered by any Irish player of all time.

Dave Kearney has two caps for Ireland and has scored two tries. Zebo has 7. McFadden has 4. Gilroy also has 2. Yet all these guys have way less caps and chances than Fitz.

If I was picking the team I would go for:

Healy
Best
Fitzpatrick (if he can stay injury free he is better than Ross)
POC
Tuohy (form)
Hendo (to good a player to leave out, adds bulk and dynamism)
Henry (best 7 after SOB)
Heaslip
Murray,
Sexton,
Fitz, (form winger)
Darcy (still better than Marshall, just)
BOD, (one last year)
D Kearney
Zebo (has play better than RK here recent times)

To be fair over the last year his support running as been much much better. His scoring rate is really poor though but he has been really unlucky whenever he seems to picking up form he picks up an injury.

Wouldnt have him starting for Ireland atm when everyone is fit, but i think hes still a top player

Hasn't Fitzgerald got a lot of caps for Ireland at 12? As well as at 15?

I never did think that the wing was his position, but he has been very good there recently. Perhaps he is adapting to the role. He is looking a lot sharper and quicker off the mark than I can ever remember from him.

Slane raises a good point - would Zebo be a good option at 15 again? We have no decent options there right now. Kearney is incredibly inconsistent.

Golden wrote:To be fair over the last year his support running as been much much better. His scoring rate is really poor though but he has been really unlucky whenever he seems to picking up form he picks up an injury.

Wouldnt have him starting for Ireland atm when everyone is fit, but i think hes still a top player

I think he is too good to leave out considering Zebo and Earls are still injured. Plus I'm sure Schmidt will get the best out of him like he did at Leinster.

I would not at all be surprised to see him start against Scotland.

When/if everyone is back Schmidt will have some headache picking the back 3

McFadden, Kearney Jnr, Kearney Snr, Fitz,( All players he knows well and has already picked at international level), Gilroy, Zebo, Earls, Henshaw, Bowe, Trimble and soon to be Payne.

Tough to pick only 3 of them in your team,

Golden wrote:When/if everyone is back Schmidt will have some headache picking the back 3

McFadden, Kearney Jnr, Kearney Snr, Fitz,( All players he knows well and has already picked at international level), Gilroy, Zebo, Earls, Henshaw, Bowe, Trimble and soon to be Payne.

Tough to pick only 3 of them in your team,

Gotta be ruthless and put McFadden, the Kearney Bros, Trimble, all to the side.

With Bowe and Zebo injured and both not in great form, any combo of the other 4 I'd be happy with (Without putting Gilroy or Fitz at fullback, or Henshaw on the wing).

GunsGerms wrote:He is probably the back who tends to be ahead of the pass more than any other back in Ireland maybe the NH. The amount of moves and good play that is botched because Fitz' timing is off is absolutely ridiculous.

His pass to Murphy was good but the timing I refer to is with regards to support lines so Murphy takes the credit there. He had a good game v Northampton but such games are few and far between for Fitz.

Ive said it a million times he has all the attributes of a great player but they all seem to get scrambled by his brain when you put them all together on a rugby pitch. For that reason he is pretty average.

Good post. He is very talented but the amount of times he overruns passes is incredible. Maybe he just needs to relax a bit. No doubting he is very talented. He has great footwork in tight situations so maybe better suited to center.


His try scoring record might indicate a lack of killer instinct. Or put another way, Ian Rush and Gary Linekar had a goal scoring instinct where they were always in the right place at the right time.

I think Schmidt will go for

McGrath
Best
Ross
POC
Toner
O'Mahoney
Henry
Heaslip
Murray
Sexton
Fitz
D'arcy
BOD
Bowe
Kearney .....
....for the first game.

I would go

1.McGrath (Healy out)
2.Best
3.Ross (barely)
4.POC
5.Tuohy
6.Henderson (quite simply he carries better than POM or Ruddock and Murphy only comes into reckoning after HEC games for me. If he goes well I strongly consider him)
7.Henry (next best 7 after O'Brien)
8. Heaslip
9. Murray
10. Sexton (needs a game though)
11. Fitzgerald
12. Marshall (bedding in time is over. Needs to keep the shirt)
13. BOD (not a form call and I'm not happy with it. Schmidt likes experience so in that sense I almost prefer a D'arcy/Marshall combo. Very tough to call)
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

profitius wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:He is probably the back who tends to be ahead of the pass more than any other back in Ireland maybe the NH. The amount of moves and good play that is botched because Fitz' timing is off is absolutely ridiculous.

His pass to Murphy was good but the timing I refer to is with regards to support lines so Murphy takes the credit there. He had a good game v Northampton but such games are few and far between for Fitz.

Ive said it a million times he has all the attributes of a great player but they all seem to get scrambled by his brain when you put them all together on a rugby pitch. For that reason he is pretty average.

Good post. He is very talented but the amount of times he overruns passes is incredible. Maybe he just needs to relax a bit. No doubting he is very talented. He has great footwork in tight situations so maybe better suited to center.  


His try scoring record might indicate a lack of killer instinct. Or put another way, Ian Rush and Gary Linekar had a goal scoring instinct where they were always in the right place at the right time.

I think his timing was off badly a few seasons ago when he was struggling with injuries but on his two recent returns from injury he's looked electric and hasn't forced things as much. Trimble is similar in that he is so much better when he's relaxed and confident otherwise he tends to make a lot of errors by trying to hard.

rodders wrote:

profitius wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:He is probably the back who tends to be ahead of the pass more than any other back in Ireland maybe the NH. The amount of moves and good play that is botched because Fitz' timing is off is absolutely ridiculous.

His pass to Murphy was good but the timing I refer to is with regards to support lines so Murphy takes the credit there. He had a good game v Northampton but such games are few and far between for Fitz.

Ive said it a million times he has all the attributes of a great player but they all seem to get scrambled by his brain when you put them all together on a rugby pitch. For that reason he is pretty average.

Good post. He is very talented but the amount of times he overruns passes is incredible. Maybe he just needs to relax a bit. No doubting he is very talented. He has great footwork in tight situations so maybe better suited to center.  


His try scoring record might indicate a lack of killer instinct. Or put another way, Ian Rush and Gary Linekar had a goal scoring instinct where they were always in the right place at the right time.

I think his timing was off badly a few seasons ago when he was struggling with injuries but on his two recent returns from injury he's looked electric and hasn't forced things as much. Trimble is similar in that he is so much better when he's relaxed and confident otherwise he tends to make a lot of errors by trying to hard.    

The timing issue was solved about 2 years ago but he still has a very poor scoring record.If he gets a chance he needs to take it as if he had even an average try scoring rate he'd be a phenomenal winger.

It definitely has not been solved IMO. I have seen quite a few forward passes to Fitz recently. They only reason they are forward is because he is constantly ahead of the passer.

GunsGerms wrote:It definitely has not been solved IMO. I have seen quite a few forward passes to Fitz recently. They only reason they are forward is because he is constantly ahead of the passer.

We'll have to agree to disagree cos I've seen most of the matches he's played this year and haven't seen them.Cronin threw one to him in the Northampton match but that was an awful pass and nothing to do with Fitzgerald.

The jury is well and truely still out for Fitz at international level. He certainly isnt a finisher, he lacks composure, bad timing and decision maker and generally doesnt link well with team mates. At best I would consider him for the bench as he is reasonably versatile and his defense is good.