Ireland moving forward

First topic message reminder :

Feel for the Irish boys after yesterday but a few things stood out for me:

We didn't score in 2nd half so I find it hard to say we deserved to win. We still struggle to close out games similar to the French game at Croke Park. I feel these issues have a lot to do with self belief which I think we as nation have struggled with for a long time in sport if I'm being honest. I feel this is JS big challenge with this team and if he can get them believing and producing performances like yesterday on a consistent basis then we'll do some damage in 6 nations and world cups.

Ireland are a different team when they keep ball in hand and don't kick the ball away constantly. This was a really pleasing part of yesterday with all the players backing themselves and each other to keep the ball in hand to put the ABs under pressure. This is without doubt the way forward as shown by the ABs themselves. Encouraging signs from the new coaching set up.

The effort and commitment yesterday was immense. It was the sort of display that made you proud to be Irish. SOB, Healy, POC and Heaslip in particular produced some of the best individual performances I've seen in a long time.

Congrats to NZ. Still the benchmark for how rugby should be played.

Also great to see the new Lansdowne Road rocking.

My 33 man squad...

McGrath-Healy-Court
Cronin-Best-Varley
Ross-Moore-Fitzpatrick
Tuohy-McCarthy
POC-Toner
POM-Henry-Ruddock-Henderson
Heaslip-Murphy

Murray-Marmion
Sexton-Jackson-Madigan
Darcy-Marshall
BOD-Henshaw
Fitzgerald-Earls-Gilroy-Kearney
Kearney

Front row based on form and pending Fitzpat injury. Don't rate Archer or Kilcoyne this season. Cronin deserves to start on form but Best is quality. Varley in there due to Strauss and Sherry injuries.

No Ryan so POC and the hugely impressive Tuohy should start with the Leinster pair who are going well as back ups. Henderson to act as cover here too.

Pending Ruddock fitness, he has outplayed McLaughlin this year. Bit early for TOD possibly? POM almost sure for 6 likewise Henry at 7. Murphy in great form, can play all 3 positions.

Marmion is the form call at 9. Jackson has overtaken Madigan, so even with Madigan's versatility I'd still have Jackson on the bench, behind Sexton

Darcy in good form and Marshall doing the crash bang whoolop but not the subtle stuff. BOD playing less than mediocre but Henshaw playing very well.....

Fitz and Kearney are in form, probably Earls in there too.....? No Zebo due to still being out

Rory_Gallagher wrote:It would be a complete disgrace if Schmidt starts both D'Arcy and O'Driscoll for the 6 nations.

I can see him doing just that. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a disgrace but I would not be happy.

Zebo came on as a late sub on Saturday Pete...

By time of the 6N
Zebo, Earls, Bowe, Gilroy, Trimble, Kearney, McFadden, Fitzgerald are all likely to be fit.

I expect him to play safe in the first game and play Bowe and Zebo with Earls on the bench.
Any doubts about Bowe and he will play in the Wolfhounds game or Earls will be selected instead

If D'arcy and Marshall shared game time I would be happy enough. O'Driscoll is the worry on form but even though he was defensively poor at the weekend he still made some key interventions. I don't see him physically lasting 5 games in a row though so does Marshall to 13 come into it or Henshaw who has been playing well

It seems clear Joe will build for the Rwc from June on.

When you are BOD or D'Arcy and have been in and around the Irish setup for so long, it becomes a part of their life. Their partnership at its best is only second to the Horan/Little centre partnership in world rugby in my opinion.

Thing is, age has caught up with both players and they are not the force that they once were and never will be again. I think that you can sometimes just go on too long and that can damage a team more than benefit it by not allowing younger players to step up and come through until a gap has been left by retirement. Ireland really should have been making provisions for the inevitable retirement of such players a few years ago but now its seen as a problem, a weak spot and something that Ireland are now somewhat reliant on these players to try and work younger players into the international game while no longer being at their best.

Cant see any centre playing all five games. Certainly wouldnt be disgraceful to start O'Driscoll or Darcy but Marshall should definitely start in at least a couple of games IMO.

My match tickets for the Scotland game have been dispached. Getting excited now. Anyone have spare tickets for Ireland v England?

O'Driscoll, O'Connell, Bowe, Best, Healy, Heaslip, Sexton will start every game if fit I believe.

D'arcy and Marshall will be rotated as well as Murray and Reddan. Toner and McCarthy maybe.

I think we'll see very little change from the Autumn, bar a bit more of Fitzgerald and Chris Henry.

I expect Donnacha Ryan to be back for the 6 nations. Will he get any game time?

rodders wrote:O'Driscoll, O'Connell, Bowe, Best, Healy, Heaslip, Sexton will start every game if fit I believe.

D'arcy and Marshall will be rotated as well as Murray and Reddan. Toner and McCarthy maybe.

I think we'll see very little change from the Autumn, bar a bit more of Fitzgerald and Chris Henry.  

Personally I cant see BOD lasting the 6N so wont start every match. Sexton, although seen as the starting 10 is not the form 10 for Ireland, that belongs to Jackson so I would like to see him start. Reddan, sorry but I really don't want him to play, just doesn't cut it at Int. level in my opinion.

Kearney and POM, definitely, will start if fit.
Ross and Zebo, probably, will start if fit.

There are very very few choices to be made, rightly or wrongly, if all players are fit.
The only maybes for me are 12 (D'Arcy or Marshall)
7 (Henry favourite)
Who plays aliongside POC in the 2nd Row (McCarthy, Toner, Tuohy in that order of probability)

The rest of the team is already on the team sheet, if fully fit

I still think the next round of the HC will have a big influence on who gets the 11, 14 and 23 jerseys. Zebo Bowe and Earls have to be favourite but the first two have to prove their fitness and form. A big game from Fitz, Kearney or Henshaw could change it.

Surely you would take form over fitness? I would prefer to select players on form rather than players with a history who are fit but maybe not in the best form.

Today Joe Schmidt will name a 42-man squad for the Wolfhounds and Six Nations. After the game at Kingsholm against England Saxons on the 25th January it will be reduced to a 32-man squad.

Notch wrote:Today Joe Schmidt will name a 42-man squad for the Wolfhounds and Six Nations. After the game at Kingsholm against England Saxons on the 25th January it will be reduced to a 32-man squad.

What time today?

Nachos Jones wrote:Surely you would take form over fitness? I would prefer to select players on form rather than players with a history who are fit but maybe not in the best form.

You think Bowe wont play? He hasnt looked that good this season. He didnt look to good before or during the AIs either but he still played. I'd imagine that will continue.

Perhaps Zebo should be in the latter group.

Nachos Jones wrote:Surely you would take form over fitness? I would prefer to select players on form rather than players with a history who are fit but maybe not in the best form.

There's a balance between the two,you use form if the two players are close in ability but you have to back your players too,if you're chopping and changing all the time due to fluctuations in form you'll never have a settled team.

Golden wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:Surely you would take form over fitness? I would prefer to select players on form rather than players with a history who are fit but maybe not in the best form.

You think Bowe wont play? He hasnt looked that good this season. He didnt look to good before or during the AIs either but he still played. I'd imagine that will continue.

Perhaps Zebo should be in the latter group.

I think that there is enough competition around for Bowe to actually earn his position rather than be given it simply because of a return to fitness. I actually think this about a lot of the players in their positions 10, 12, 11 and 14 to name four positions.

To me, Sexton has not played well since leaving and looks constantly tired, Jackson has been playing some good rugby and is the form 10 in Ireland I believe, so its his position.

Granted there will be a game plan and some players may not match that but its time Ireland developed. If the older experienced players are in form then great, select them if not then select a another player on form. Just don't select on name and a pre-defined game plan...

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:Surely you would take form over fitness? I would prefer to select players on form rather than players with a history who are fit but maybe not in the best form.

There's a balance between the two,you use form if the two players are close in ability but you have to back your players too,if you're chopping and changing all the time due to fluctuations in form you'll never have a settled team.

I believe in the balance and am not for kneejerk selections but how are we too see if certain players have the ability at International level if they are not going to be picked over out of form senior players with said ability simply because they have been deemed fit?

GunsGerms wrote:

Notch wrote:Today Joe Schmidt will name a 42-man squad for the Wolfhounds and Six Nations. After the game at Kingsholm against England Saxons on the 25th January it will be reduced to a 32-man squad.

What time today?

Fairly soon I'd imagine. Don't know for sure.

I don't think Bowe should be near the 23. If he's fit in time he should play for the Wolfhounds, if he's not he should play for Ulster before he's selected. Trimble, Kearney, Fitzgerald and Earls are all fit and playing some good rugby and Zebo is closer to fitness than Bowe is.

I'd pick for the Wolfhounds;

Kilcoyne, Varley, Moore, Tuohy, Henderson, Ruddock, O'Donnell, Copeland, Marshall, Jackson, Gilroy, Madigan, Henshaw, Trimble, D. Kearney

Ah here now Bowe won't be playing for the wolfhounds! Even I wouldn't line out for them! That's a disgrace! Mods!

Thats a good team Notch. I'd like Henderson to get a run out with them though and Marmion to start. Also James Hart on the bench to get him capped.

Sly edit of the team to cover up the fact I forgot about Henderson...

1st XV

15 Kearney
14 Bowe
13 BOD
12 Marshall
11 Fitzgerald
10 Sexton
9 Murray
8 Heaslip
7 Henry
6 O'Mahoney
5 Toner
4 O'Connell
3 Ross
2 Best
1 Healy

Bench: Kilcoyne, Cronin, Fitzpatrick, McCarthy, O'Donnell, Reddan, Madigan, D. Kearney

Wolfhounds:

15 Henshaw
14 Gilroy
13 Cave
12 Olding
11 Earls
10 Jackson
9 Marmion
8 Copeland
6 Diack
7 Murphy
5 Touhy
4 Henderson
3 Moore
2 Varley
1 McGrath

Bench: Archer, Herring, Black, Butler, Coughlin, Marshall, Hanaran, Jones.

I think Bowe will start for the Wolfhounds.
Schmidt regards him as first choice if fit - this will be his only chance to play.

The two Munster boys would be my guess for the first match.

Why play Marmion rather Marshall at 9?

Marmion could have a big future with Ireland where as Marshall whilst a good club player probably wont. Surely getting Marmion involved in the set up as mush as possible is a good thing?

rodders Olding almost certainly won't play again this season. Apparently the squad announcement is at 4.

geoff998rugby wrote:Why play Marmion rather Marshall at 9?

Because current IRFU selection usually rewards key players who stick with Connacht with a wolfhounds spot, which gets upgraded to a regular Irish spot if they jump ship to Leinster.

Nachos Jones wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:Surely you would take form over fitness? I would prefer to select players on form rather than players with a history who are fit but maybe not in the best form.

There's a balance between the two,you use form if the two players are close in ability but you have to back your players too,if you're chopping and changing all the time due to fluctuations in form you'll never have a settled team.

I believe in the balance and am not for kneejerk selections but how are we too see if certain players have the ability at International level if they are not going to be picked over out of form senior players with said ability simply because they have been deemed fit?

They'll get their chances off the bench and in games against weaker teams.Schmidt used a lot of players in the AI's and that was only 3 games.Now he has 5 games and weaker opposition so you can be sure players will get a chance.

My squad for the first match, if I were to select today.

1st XV

15 Kearney
14 Gilroy
13 Cave
12 Marshall
11 Earls
10 Jackson
9 Murray
8 Heaslip
7 Henry
6 O'Mahoney
5 Toner
4 O'Connell
3 Ross
2 Best
1 Healy

Bench: Kilcoyne, Cronin, Fitzpatrick, McCarthy, O'Donnell, Marmion, Madigan, L.Fitzgerald

Notch wrote:rodders Olding almost certainly won't play again this season. Apparently the squad announcement is at 4.

Yea fair enough was struggling there in some positions - wanted to get Ruddock in too somewhere, maybe Downey at 12 for the wolfhounds.

rodders wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Why play Marmion rather Marshall at 9?

Because current IRFU selection usually rewards key players who stick with Connacht with a wolfhounds spot, which gets upgraded to a regular Irish spot if they jump ship to Leinster.

Has that ever actually happened?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:Surely you would take form over fitness? I would prefer to select players on form rather than players with a history who are fit but maybe not in the best form.

There's a balance between the two,you use form if the two players are close in ability but you have to back your players too,if you're chopping and changing all the time due to fluctuations in form you'll never have a settled team.

I believe in the balance and am not for kneejerk selections but how are we too see if certain players have the ability at International level if they are not going to be picked over out of form senior players with said ability simply because they have been deemed fit?

They'll get their chances off the bench and in games against weaker teams.Schmidt used a lot of players in the AI's and that was only 3 games.Now he has 5 games and weaker opposition so you can be sure players will get a chance.

See, I would do things the other way round, I would bring the experienced players out of form on as replacements to give them a chance to win back their spots from the form players...

Nachos Jones wrote:
11 Earls

Really surprised to see Earls name banded around, especially given Fitzgerald's form. Both marmite players but the latter is in fantastic form.

I'd have a half- fit Bowe or Zebo or fully fit Gilroy, McFadden or Kearney ahead of him. I'd take Johne Murphy ahead of him too, maybe an out of sorts Trimble..... maybe even Fionn Carr....ok maybe he isn't that bad....

rodders wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:
11 Earls

Really surprised to see Earls name banded around, especially given Fitzgerald's form. Both marmite players but the latter is in fantastic form.

I'd have a half- fit Bowe or Zebo or fully fit Gilroy, McFadden or Kearney ahead of him. I'd take Johne Murphy ahead of him too, maybe an out of sorts Trimble..... maybe even Fionn Carr....ok maybe he isn't that bad....

Really, did you not see Earls on the weekend then? Looked in some pretty good form to me which is why I would have him in.

I thought that I would get jumped on for not having BOD, Sexton and D'Arcy in my match day squad. Not because I included Earls...

Nachos Jones wrote:

rodders wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:
11 Earls

Really surprised to see Earls name banded around, especially given Fitzgerald's form. Both marmite players but the latter is in fantastic form.

I'd have a half- fit Bowe or Zebo or fully fit Gilroy, McFadden or Kearney ahead of him. I'd take Johne Murphy ahead of him too, maybe an out of sorts Trimble..... maybe even Fionn Carr....ok maybe he isn't that bad....

Really, did you not see Earls on the weekend then? Looked in some pretty good form to me which is why I would have him in.

Been watching him all season and still waiting for this good form people are talking about. Johne Murphy had a far better game. Apart from scoring a fortuitous try against Perpignon when the ball shot out of a ruck he's done nothing of note for me and his defence is atrocious.

Id take Earls over Fitz on the wing any day.

Earls: 39 caps 12 tries (includes 3 v Wales and 1 v Eng)
Fitz: 28 caps 2 tries (both scored v Italy in '09)

Thats all you need to know about the two players.

We must be watching different games then rodders because Earls is really coming into a rich vein of form, his lines on and off the ball have been excellent.

GunsGerms wrote:Id take Earls over Fitz on the wing any day.

Earls: 39 caps 12 tries
Fitz: 28 caps 2 tries

Thats all you need to know about the two players.

Really? Is that all? What's McFadden, Gilroy and Kearney's strike rates?

I'd say there is a lot more to it than that.

Anybody heard this rumour that Rodney Ah You is going to be named in the Ireland squad, sounds like a right crock to me but a facebook page called "Rugby Banter Page" says its circulating on twitter, they wumming?

Nachos Jones wrote:We must be watching different games then rodders because Earls is really coming into a rich vein of form, his lines on and off the ball have been excellent.

Gilroy and Kearney both have 2 tries and Mcfadden 4.

If you include Gilroys match against Fiji hes scored 5 in 6 i think.

McFadden has 8 in 21 caps.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Anybody heard this rumour that Rodney Ah You is going to be named in the Ireland squad, sounds like a right crock to me but a facebook page called "Rugby Banter Page" says its circulating on twitter, they wumming?

Surely cant be true? Healy Mcgrath, Kilcoyne, Cronin and  court must all be ahead of him?

EDIT: Or is he a tight head? Is white IQ yet?

Sorry yes he does have 8. Pretty good return isnt it?

Makes picking Fitz for anything other than the bench a no brainer for me. If Sexton starts I would pick McFadden. (Is he injured still?)

So if Kearney has a try a game ratio then by your argument Guns he must be better than Earls? Same with Gilroy with 2 in 5?

Think McFadden is back this week. Big fan of his but if everyones fit he wouldnt be getting in the match day squads.

Golden wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Anybody heard this rumour that Rodney Ah You is going to be named in the Ireland squad, sounds like a right crock to me but a facebook page called "Rugby Banter Page" says its circulating on twitter, they wumming?

Surely cant be true? Healy Mcgrath, Kilcoyne, Cronin and  court must all be ahead of him?

IRFU: Ah You Irish?
Rodney: Yep
IRFU: Want to play?

Thats usually how it goes these days isnt it?

Too me it doesn't go down to the stats of who has the best conversion rate of tries per game, its more down to experience and form. Earls has the experience and is in a good vein of form so he gets the nod. Gilroy, simply because I think that he is an outstanding player and will grow immensely if given the starting position.

If you want experience of running in soft tries against the US and botching tries against tier 1 opposition by not passing then Earls is your guy.

rodders wrote:So if Kearney has a try a game ratio then by your argument Guns he must be better than Earls? Same with Gilroy with 2 in 5?  

Freddy Burns has played the ABs once and won against them once but that obviously doesnt make him the best outhalf in the world. Obviously when dealing with low figures your ratios can look deceptively good. Earls try scoring record is very good.

My point rodders is that Fitz try scoring record isnt international standard. He should be nicknamed the butcher. Certainly though Kearney's 2 tries in two games looks better that 2 in 28 for a guy of Fitz's supposed talent.