Ireland moving forward

First topic message reminder :

Feel for the Irish boys after yesterday but a few things stood out for me:

We didn't score in 2nd half so I find it hard to say we deserved to win. We still struggle to close out games similar to the French game at Croke Park. I feel these issues have a lot to do with self belief which I think we as nation have struggled with for a long time in sport if I'm being honest. I feel this is JS big challenge with this team and if he can get them believing and producing performances like yesterday on a consistent basis then we'll do some damage in 6 nations and world cups.

Ireland are a different team when they keep ball in hand and don't kick the ball away constantly. This was a really pleasing part of yesterday with all the players backing themselves and each other to keep the ball in hand to put the ABs under pressure. This is without doubt the way forward as shown by the ABs themselves. Encouraging signs from the new coaching set up.

The effort and commitment yesterday was immense. It was the sort of display that made you proud to be Irish. SOB, Healy, POC and Heaslip in particular produced some of the best individual performances I've seen in a long time.

Congrats to NZ. Still the benchmark for how rugby should be played.

Also great to see the new Lansdowne Road rocking.

And with Muller leaving and given the likely Ulster signings Henderson will be playing a lot of rugby in the 2nd row for his Province

rodders wrote:

Yea saw that piece on Hendo on V3 - he's a ridiculously talented player you know...he's had a few injuries recently though and people need to be patient. Next season will be a big one I think.

I'm really happy with Toner and Touhy's form and McCarthy won't let anyone down either. With Ryan to come back lock is pretty strong.

Henderson will be better than all of the above though, its just a matter of time.  

He looks like a real prospect and he's only 20 isn't he,if he's going to be a lock he has at least 4 years before I'd be expecting big things from him,anything befoer that is a bonus.

21 I think now... don't get me wrong he's good enough to go straight in there now but there's some more seasoned locks there so there's no rush.

He's unbelievably powerful, sometimes he does things like handoff players or puts in a huge hit and you have to do a double take to believe it - he's got cartoon super hero strength.

Bump

Where now for Ireland? Fall away like they did after 09 or kick on?


Consistency was the buzz word for us Irish supports for years but under Schmidt Ireland have been very consistent. Thats a good place to start and build on.


Negatives: There are plenty of areas to improve on and the team was the oldest in this years 6 nations by a long way. Also a replacement for BOD and possibly D'Arcy too must be found.

Positives: Consistency. Schmidt getting the best out of players. Squad depth much stronger in this 6 nations. Loads of players of all types coming through to make the team stronger in the coming years.

Negatives: kicking from tee.  Some will say 5 points wasn't much against France.  It was everything as it made already nerve tinged and battle rattled players even more on edge as they saw Sexton take an eternity to kick a ball that then went wide.  Players aren't dumb, they know that's a mind fighting itself and in the heat of a game against a side like France, that's suicide.  Our kicking must be more predictable in big games.

So Sexton will seriously - and I mean seriously - have to work on his kicking issues in big games or else we're seriously going to have to find a kicking alternative in the guise of a different number.  Perhaps Kearney should start practicising again?

Another negative: We could now do with trying to find or orchestrate a large centre to offer a different dynamic.  We don't threaten enough there in physical linebreaking terms and we can't live in the past.  The world is moving on and sides with large fast centres do a lot of damage and reap rewards.  Rugby is too professional now and too serious for us to remain with our heads in the sand and try to be purist about it.  Bowe might be tried here to give us more options.

Looking at clips here of highlights of the french game though.  God, it was wonderful stuff.  We have so much potential here to do some weird and wonderful stuff if we keep improving.

Is it any coincidence that we are got less injuries than in our previous few campaigns? Under Kidney we played an unsustainable game plan based on winning every collision and out muscling opposition.

Thankfully a more varied approach appears to have significantly reduced our sick list this year. Another poisitive that seems to have almost gone unnoticed.

No, you're right.  Not only the sick list improves from less SA style collision rugby but also player stamina lasts longer.

England and Ireland (England more than Ireland) were the only two sides that created a tempo and pretty much stuck to it through five games and virtually 80 minutes of each of those games.  

That is also a major plus that can't be over-estimated considering how tough we found sustaining pace in the last few years - with players sucking for air even after a game with Italy.... saying how tough the encounter was.

With our new fitness and conditioning guy our levels of stamina and endurance levels should increase even more into next year.  You can only carry out gameplans to the last 80 minutes when you have the gas to do so - as the French game proved.  Had that game happened last year, I'm not sure we would have endured the last hectic minutes.

Just on a point of interest, what was that mix up at the very beginning of the game, when France seemed to rapidly 'decide' just before kick-off to change sides?? Was that allowable under the rules?

Must have missed that.

There seemed to have been a big fuss maybe 30 seconds before the get-go and Irish players were seen changing sides and commentator mentioned something about France suddenly changing their mind about which side they'd play on.  Maybe my mind is playing tricks with me but I remember all that and it was suggested the French were already trying psychological tricks...  and I was wondering even if they were trying them, were they allowed to?

I didn't see much on camera but I did detect a bit of a fuss and then the commentator said his bit.

If none of that happened then I'm going a little crazy!!!

That did happen Fly. Not a great "psychological trick" though really. I doubt it upset any of the Irish players or affected their focus. Not like Martin Johnson in '03. I think that did work.

Moving forward I'd like to see us chopping down big guys, not tackling high to prevent the offload. Basteraud didn't cause problems to anyone else because nobody else was dumb enough to try and tackle him high. They just chopped him down. Sexton and Kearney were flattened tackling high.

And cut out the attempted choke tackles against big guys moving fast too. It's not worth it. To many metres are lost. There's a time and a place for a choke tackle. When a player has little momentum. We're using it too much. Just chop the big guys down please Mr. Kiss.

I don't know Feckless, it's dicey doing too much of one over the other.  You get into too much of a habit of chopping folks down and they adapt and offload as you're wrapped around their ankles.  You try to tackle high to prevent an offload and they pump legs to push forward and gain ground.

It's Catch 22.  

I suppose you have to do a lot of homework on individuals and team strategies.... as most of them (the best ones) do definitely have double plans ready to adapt to how they are being stopped.

Wasn't it a last ditch choke tackle/hold-up and maul that saved our bacon in the very end?

So who are the contenders to make the world cup squad?


Lets look at the last squad
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Rugby_World_Cup_squads#.C2.A0Ireland


We can strike the following off the list for 2015.
Varley
Buckley
Court
Cullen
DOC
Jennings
Leamy
ROG
BOD
Wallace
Geo Murphy


Possible squad for 2015

Healy,
Best,
Ross, Moore
Toner, Henderson
POC,
POM, Ferris
Henry, SOB
Heaslip
Murray, Reddan
Sexton, Jackson
Fitzgerald
D'Arcy, Marshall
Henshaw, Payne
Bowe, Trimble
R Kearney


Thats 24 near certainties (injury permitting) and 6 to go to make the 30 man squad. So you're looking at 7 from the following contenders... McGrath, Kilcoyne, J Cronin, S Cronin, Strauss, Sherry, Fitzpatrick, Archer, Furlong, Ryan, Tuohy, McCarthy, Jordi Murphy, Ruddock, TOD, Copeland, Boss, Marmion, Madigan, Hanrahan, Dave Kearney, Zebo, Cave, Felix Jones. I might have left out some names and no doubt new names will emerge too.

Henshaw and Payne are also the fullback cover. There'll probably be one or two injury blows also.


The breakdown of the 2011 squad was

3 hookers
4 props
4 locks
3 flankers
2 No 8s
3 scrumhalf
2 outhalfs
4 centers
3 wings
2 fullbacks

I posted after the france game (it got lost in the elated mayhem) that only 6 players from the 22 on Saturday were in the last weekend 22 when we won the slam in 2009.

If memory serves me - Best, POC, Heaslip, Darcy, BOD, Kearney.

Pretty interesting to see how the team has evolved.

In fairness, there were some missing through injury.

Not sure where to put this but I have to say I found it some very good analysis of the Irish tries in the last 6N game by of all people, Bernard Jackman (borrow from rte website);

By Bernard Jackman

We witnessed a fantastic finish to the RBS 6 Nations, one in which the right team emerged as winners.

Ireland won on points difference despite having the toughest draw with away matches in London and Paris. In all the fundamentals, the stats show that Ireland were incredibly consistent and leaders in key categories.

But for this piece I’m going to look at the three tries Ireland scored against France. Taken together, the first two were perfect examples of the gains Ireland have made under Joe Schmidt. The third is an exciting hint at the team they have the potential to become.

The first try came from the ‘ground and pound’ mode that we have seen Ireland use to such good effect when they get into the opposition ‘22. The focus is on building phase after phase with one-pass rugby, and ball-carriers playing flat on the gainline and having two or three support players ready to clean out quickly.

It is about speed, quality ball presentation and being relentless and the goal is to stress the defence. Nearly all tries scored through this method come from errors and the goal is to cause one.

In this case the mistake came when Yoann Maestri knocked over his team-mate Thomas Domingo from behind. Domingo was actually in the perfect position to tackle Chris Henry, who delivers the scoring offload, but Maestri took out his own man from behind.



That created the space for Henry to attack the second defender and give Sexton a route to get over the line.

It was a stupid error by France, but those are the things happen when you tire a defence. Ireland’s work on the training pitch – two-minute ‘killer’ drills with 15 v 15 and the likes – really paid off.

The second try came from a typical Schmidt powerplay. These started with video analysis. In this case the key element was to recognize that the French front five tended to be slow to break out of defensive scrums and to know where the French back-rowers would go in a certain situation.

Ireland got the right situation – a scrum near the right touchline – when Louis Picamoles dropped a routine catch.

But to take advantage they had to execute a whole range of small things perfectly.

First, they needed a quick ruck in the right part of the pitch. Brian O’Driscoll delivered it with help from Sexton, Gordon D’Arcy and Rob Kearney, who ran lines that kept Mathieu Bastareaud and Gael Fickou interested and gave O’Driscoll the one-on-one with Remy Tales. He was able to dominate that contest and at that point, Ireland were in a great position – well across the gainline and with quick ball.

Meanwhile, back at the scrum, they had wheeled the French away from the play after the ball had left the scrum. That put the French tight-five and Alexandre Lapandry were out of the picture.

The other two back-rowers, Louis Picamoles and Damien Chouly, were trying to do their jobs by getting to the far side of the next ruck.



The wheel and the knowledge of where the French back-rowers had created huge space down the right hand side of the key ruck.

The move actually almost came unstuck, because Picamoles was so late out of the scrum that he was almost in a position to make a tackle on the strike-runner Andrew Trimble but was not quite in position to make it.

Trimble had taken a superb line, cutting down the blindside at the last second.

Henry has taking up a blocking position at the side of the ruck to Sexton, who clears out the ruck and then bounces up to support Murray.

Even then there was more to do. Maxime Machenaud had also spotted the threat and moved to shut it down but Murray improvised brilliantly, drawing Machenaud before releasing his pass to Trimble and he goes over virtually untouched to complete a brilliantly structured move that lasted just 13 seconds.

There is so much going on and so many small jobs being done right. We hear so much about it, but this is what attention to detail really means.

In scoring their first two tries, Ireland had done things we had already seen in this Six Nations. The third try is interesting because it gave a real indication of where this team can go.

Unlike most of the 16 tries Ireland score in the Six Nations, it began deep in the Irish half, on the 22-metre line, and came from turnover ball.

Rob Kearney starts the move, taking it as far as the Irish 10-metre line and setting it up for Murray, who passes to Cian Healy. Healy then sets up another ruck and that is key.

Ireland actually already had an overlap when Healy took it forward.

A lot of teams would have a two- or three-pass rule in that situation but the space on offer can often be deceptive, because the defence can drift and use the touchline to manage the threat. By taking it into contact, Healy drew in two extra French defenders.

At the same time, Trimble moved in off the left wing and into the Irish attacking line, slotting in just inside O’Driscoll.

Those actions meant Ireland had Sexton, D’Arcy, Rory Best, Trimble and O’Driscoll attacking two props and two second rows.

From there, Ireland executed perfectly with Sexton flattening up and D’Arcy drawing and fixing Vincent Debaty. That left Pascal Pape isolated and when hesitated, waiting for help from the inside, Trimble used his speed to burn him.

Ireland had made 80 metres in seconds and almost scored. Brice Dulin actually did well to stop O’Driscoll short, holding off and forcing him back inside and allowing Maxime Medard to make the tackle.

But the work-rate by Best, D’Arcy and Paul O’Connell gave Ireland a quick recycle and that allowed Sexton to arrive, pick a hole and get over.

Three tries, three different aspects of Ireland’s game under Schmidt and three reasons to be very hopeful about the future.

France Six Nations contenders? Philippe Saint-Andre said after the match that France were now contenders to win the World Cup. They have the ability, but I am not convinced that he is the man to bring them the consistency they need to be a force.

In next year’s Six Nations they have to travel to Dublin and London and I think that winning in either venue will be beyond them. Saturday’s performance will probably keep Saint-Andre in a job though.

By the way, Ireland’s display was applauded in France and all the French people that I have spoken to since the game have been very complimentary about the style and quality of the rugby that we played.

Ireland’s squad rotation

One of the most noticeable factors from the tournament was that every Irish player performed well. That is partly why Schmidt struggled to rotate his selection. There were standout players across the team but one of the best things about this campaign was the way Devin Toner, Peter O’Mahony, Chris Henry, Andrew Trimble and Dave Kearney came through and proved that they are top class players.

Player of the Championship?

The rest of the Irish team had, of course, already shown their quality. For me, though, the player of the championship in green was Cian Healy. From great lifting at kick-off and lineout time to destructive scrimmaging and real aggression at the ruck, he was brilliant. With Sean O’Brien absent, he was also one of our best ball carriers. I think he is the best loosehead in the world at the moment.

A coaching career for BOD?

Brian O’Driscoll bows out with the finish he deserved. There has been speculation this week that he could continue in the Irish game in a coaching capacity. Certainly of all the players that I played with he has the attributes to make a phenomenal coach.

He was always interested in why and how things were done and could design plays and tactics brilliantly as he knew exactly what would work against certain defensive systems and individuals. It is up to Brian what he wants to do and he probably feels like a break from the game for a little while. But he is a competitor and he may miss the direct involvement in elite sport.

More to come from Ireland

I think this campaign is only the start. Players like Donnacha Ryan, Tommy O’Donnell, Keith Earls, JJ Hanrahan, Simon Zebo, Stephen Ferris, Tommy Bowe, Craig Gilroy and Sean O’Brien are all waiting to come in and bring more depth to our playing group.

Alongside that, I also expect Ireland to add more offloading to their armoury. We had the lowest amount of offloads in the competition with only 27 over five games. Leinster and Clermont under Joe Schmidt they all excelled in this area. Argentina and the November Tests could see further development in that area.

Provincial rivalry - the dynamic is good

There was some negative comment about the number of Leinster players in the Ireland squad. In one sense, the results speak for themselves and the most important thing for me is that Ireland is successful.

Joe Schmidt will pick the players that he thinks will do the best job for any particular match, regardless of the provincial jersey they wear.

We have a coaching set-up that communicates exactly what they want from their players and the fringe players know what they have to do to break into the team. That will drive the standards of play even higher in all the provinces on. The dynamic is good and should help Ireland win even more in future. I for one am excited by that scenario.

Bravo les gars!

Yes... some nice observations.

The one that sticks out for me is the one that has mildly frustrated me most - our relative lack of offloading.  I agree with Jackman that it's an area that can be added to make us an even more challenging unit but I think Schmidt is thinking long term.  I'm not so certain he'll be adding extras too quickly.  It seems he's trying to make simple steps go as far as possible and keeps mixing up those ingredients to keep opposition on their toes.  But I think he'll have extra things to add at the most appropriate times.... even through the WC itself.

I don't think we'll ever see a 'complete' Ireland side playing all their tricks or gameplans until the WC itself....and then saved again for toughest opponents.  
You do get a sense that, even now, Ireland are playing within themselves, containing themselves inside rigid structures.  Schmidt has been quoted talking about the requirement to be aware of what the opposition expects from you.  In a sense, he has to create a blueprint that Ireland will play to so that opposition coaches are forced to work on meeting that blueprint and defeating it.  And that's when knowing what your enemy is thinking might pay dividends.

SecretFly wrote:Yes... some nice observations.

The one that sticks out for me is the one that has mildly frustrated me most - our relative lack of offloading.  I agree with Jackman that it's an area that can be added to make us an even more challenging unit but I think Schmidt is thinking long term.  I'm not so certain he'll be adding extras too quickly.  It seems he's trying to make simple steps go as far as possible and keeps mixing up those ingredients to keep opposition on their toes.  But I think he'll have extra things to add at the most appropriate times.... even through the WC itself.

I don't think we'll ever see a 'complete' Ireland side playing all their tricks or gameplans until the WC itself....and then saved again for toughest opponents.  
You do get a sense that, even now, Ireland are playing within themselves, containing themselves inside rigid structures.  Schmidt has been quoted talking about the requirement to be aware of what the opposition expects from you.  In a sense, he has to create a blueprint that Ireland will play to so that opposition coaches are forced to work on meeting that blueprint and defeating it.  And that's when knowing what your enemy is thinking might pay dividends.

I don't see this changing to be honest.I felt Leinster were at their absolute best in the first year under Schmidt when we offloaded a lot and looked really dangerous,however once Schmidt got the teams passing skills up to the level he wanted the offloads seemed to dry up.It's a pity as a good offloading game can make a team unbelievably hard to defednd against.

Yes, they [offloads] did dry up from Leinster too, shoulder.  But again you could suggest Leinster were trying to evolve to keep the opposition wondering about what the blueprint is.

So Ireland might 'evolve' back the other way in time.  Some sides that offload a lot can look dynamic and dangerous but can often in genuine terms go nowhere (Scotland can be like that at times).  But in the hands of Irish players, who could use it in parallel with all their other strengths, it could prove absolutely lethal.

We'll see - but it is certainly an absent aspect of our play that keeps frustrating me.  At least Jackman now mentions it which makes me feel less alone in thinking about it.

Does anyone else think Sexton is looking better since his been playing more?

Scrumpy wrote:Does anyone else think Sexton is looking better since his been playing more?

For Ireland?  

He's looking better since he's been under his familiar Leinster coach again.... and better than he's been playing for Racing.

So the actual quirk is that few Irish players were playing anything close to their potential in the final seasons of Kidney's reign.  Now they have a new coach who more than most understands their strengths and plays to those strengths.

We've been telling the larger 6N family for years now that if these Irish players (that many people were saying weren't even up to International standard! ) get a coach that suits their talents, talents they've been proving over and over in Europe with their provinces, then they in turn will show what they're capable of at International.

But that often wasn't enough for some and we'd still get hit with the notion that Kidney and his coaches weren't the problem but that they were afflicted with players that simply couldn't cut it as Internationals.  "Club isn't International you know.  International is a few levels up" was often the curt jibe

So it is.

I think Sexton is looking better since the coach who has coaxed his career best rugby out of him at Leinster took over the Ireland job...

Because we've seen a Jonny Sexton who plays to this standard for several years before he moved to Racing in Leinster colours. And when you see him play for Racing the drop off in the standard of his game is profound.

The point about offloading is a good one. The great thing about this 6 nations win was the type of team and gameplan Schmidt had. He didn't go for flair players but players who do the basics well. The criticism of the team was they lack creativity and I'd go along with that.


Back to the offloading point. I'd say Schmidt lets that up to the players. He wouldn't want to push it too much incase players try things they're not capable of. Look at the French. They were very dangerous offloading but overdid it at times and turned the ball over. Bastereaud in particular was causing Ireland all sorts of trouble but turned over the ball a lot. This is where the creative players come in. They're usually better at knowing when to do things. Thats why people are excited at the thought of Payne, Olding, Hanrahan etc playing for Ireland as they can give Ireland an extra dimension.


So I think Schmidt will not worry about offloads and let the players decide.


One other factor is that they didn't need to offload much. They looked dangerous in attack and the quality rucking and workrate ment they would retain the ball. Against England though they didn't really look like opening them up so in that type of situation an offloading game would be needed.

Thats the biggest one for me. I'd like to see more offloading in our game. Thats how you break down the best defences.

Chris Henry was saying that, following advice from Schmidt, he had worked on his off loading game.
The first try against France was the result - he would not have done that even 12 months ago

geoff998rugby wrote:Chris Henry was saying that, following advice from Schmidt, he had worked on his off loading game.
The first try against France was the result - he would not have done that even 12 months ago

It was a class offload. Great technique.

You breakdown teams by playing to your strengths and their weaknesses - which is what we've done hence we scored more tries than anyone else.

Under Kidney we had very high offload stats - I think one recent game against Wales we had 3 : 1 offload ration and lost so volume/number of offloads is a red herring - in fact it can be a sign that you aren't breaking the gain line and that your attack is struggling and tends to be inversely proportional to ball retention and metres gained.

In general our offloading was excellent - a lot of tries came from offloads from the tackle.

O'Brien will give us a bit more in terms of carrying - attack wise Reddan is still better than Murray at providing quick ball. Fitzgerald at 11 maybe and Jared Payne will add a new dimension when he's available.

Midfield defence was exposed a few times but I think that is a bi-product of the narrow game Schmidt plays and occasionally we will get caught in the wide channels.

The biggest challenge for Schmidt now is not replacing BOD but keeping Ross in one piece and developing Moore and whoever else as adequate cover because Ross going off against France almost cost us the title.

Nah, we always had very poor offload stats in general under Kidney across five years. Five years is a long time to generalise I know- but thats a general trend I noticed. There are likely a few games where we did get offloads away but in general- we didn't. It's just one small part of the bigger picture.

Notch wrote:Nah, we always had very poor offload stats in general under Kidney across five years. Five years is a long time to generalise I know- but thats a general trend I noticed. There are likely a few games where we did get offloads away but in general- we didn't. It's just one small part of the bigger picture.

In the years 6 nations Ireland offloaded less than anyone else yet scored more tries than anyone. Maybe more offloading isnt required just better quality offloading and only at the right times.

Last thing we want is everyone to try and offload everytime they get the ball like Luke Fitz and lose it nearly every time.

rodders wrote:Fitzgerald at 11

I think Fitzgerald has a lot to prove to Schmidt.

If I was looking into Schmidts mind I think I would see the following assessment of the wingers:

Bowe, Trimble first choices, Earls should challange when he returns
Kearney, McFadden the reliables who wont let the side down
Fitzgerald, Zebo, Gilroy - highly talented but a (differing) nagging doubt that they need to dispel to get selected

Not saying, necessarily, my view but I think a fair assessment of how Schmidt sees them.

Quality offloads are about doing so at the right time - sheer numbers mean nothing.
A couple of quick offloads at pace, after breaking the gain line, are worth 30 in your own half to players in a stationary position

Wise Offloading.

You can go to ground and we can be satisfied we're strong at recycling but it gives strong defences and high quality sides too much time to re-set.

Like I said earlier - no I wouldn't want endless mechanically dictated offloading as that's just as impotent as never offloading at all.  Teams adapt to what's in front of them.  Unpredictability is what we'll need, not predictable anything - including offloading.

Adding more to our mix of tricks would keep opposition teams on edge even more.  Having the opposition not knowing where the ball might go, or how we might use it, keeps them hesitant and leaves more opportunities for us to capitalise on defensive uncertainties.

Not endless offloading - but just a tad more of it against these hard to break-down, well organised defences we've been meeting in certain games.  Scorelines of 10-13 and 20-22 can be improved upon with more questions asked of those kind of opponents.

Italy play an offloading game but that's to try and force openings. Same with Scotland.

What I noticed with Ireland is the players are looking to offload all the time but don't throw many risky offloads. Henrys offload for the Sexton try was a lovely bit of skill and it was a certainty to reach Sexton.

Its great to see a coach who looks to get the basics right. That is sometimes overlooked. Flair players can look great but if they make many mistakes their positive contribution is only balancing out the negative contribution. I thought Schmidt was very conservative in his team selection but he wants to do the basics well first and then expand on that. England fans say they're in the best position of all 6 nations teams moving forward but I think Ireland is in a great position too with a load of talent on the way and a game plan that can evolve.

As Geoff said number of offloads are irrelevant and are often a sign of team with a poor attack to have a high number.

Scotland for example made over twice as many offloads as us - England made 5 times as many and scored less tries. Pretty sure for anyone who wants to research table position and points scored to number of offloads they'll find some interesting reading. Wales make an incredibly low number of offloads but make some of the most meters with the ball (pre this season).

I can think of at least two examples of tries we scored directly from offloads so I think it was a strength of ours in the competition rather than a weakness.

Okay- let me clarify and expand. I wasn't saying we need to offload on every phase. Nobody wants many offloads of low quality which are ineffective. I was saying I want to see our offloading game improve and I want to see our offloading game employed more when faced with organised defences.

I would say that our offloading game got better and more effective as the championship went on and we gelled more- or more likely, we trusted ourselves more to use it once the foundations were in place. I would say we offloaded very effectively in the last two games. At the start of the championship Chris Henrys offload to Tuohy in the lead up to the third try stood out, because we had loads of possession and not much penetration against an organised defence and I though 'geez, we need more forwards who can take the tackle and offload'. As the Championship went on, there was a bit more quality offloading.

I don't want offloading to stationary players or offloading every phase- I just want to see our forwards able to run good support lines off the ball carrier and players who can get their hands free when they take contact to offer the chance of getting that offload away.

I understood you the first time I just think you are wrong. I think our offloading was employed well - i.e. in the opposition half and it led to points.

Against the organised defences we did a good job at probing and shifting them around and scoring when needed.

The game we lost was due to a defensive error - we didn't lose because we couldn't break defences down.

rodders wrote:I understood you the first time I just think you are wrong. I think our offloading was employed well - i.e. in the opposition half and it led to points.

Against the organised defences we did a good job at probing and shifting them around and scoring when needed.

The game we lost was due to a defensive error - we didn't lose because we couldn't break defences down.

The problem is that we didn't really look like opening up the English defense and defensive errors happen all the time so you can't rely on a solid defense. Against the weaker defenses a tighter game can be played and will be because as Brent Pope would say, never give a sucker an even break!


Having said that the offload is just one weapon. There are plenty of other areas where Ireland could improve their attack.

I do think against England we didn't look like probing and finding a way through, we looked dangerous off planned moves against the set piece but we had a lot of possession without threatening them in that game and I was maybe looking for someone to give that little bit extra with an offload or a line break or a piece of good footwork that would create an opportunity. But in games like that, you get 1 or 2 opportunities and you have to take them. I thought the reason we lost is we didn't score off Sextons cross-field kick to Trimble, that set move, if that had came off we would have been in a good place.

Credit to the English defence for that because I think our attacking game has been very good, I think they were incredibly well organised and accurate and physical and we just couldn't find a way to break them down. I thought our attack got better every time we played so I'm not really too concerned.

Lets see how it goes over the summer - sometimes you have to credit the defence and most teams will struggle to break England down - especially at Twickenham.

We did cut them up for Kearney's try and had the lead to defend though so the attack wasn't what let us down.

Sextons kicking boots probably cost us a slam and a win against the AB's if you really scrutinize it but you can't blame individuals.... he's a quality player Sexton...

I'm a fan of Paddy Jackson but he still has a long way to go to get up to that level.

I wouldn't dream of dropping Sexton but if you are being ultra critical of where we need to improve for me one of the first things is the missed place kicks - one cost a win against NZ and it could have cost us against France too. We missed one v England too which proved critical.

rodders wrote:I wouldn't dream of dropping Sexton but if you are being ultra critical of where we need to improve for me one of the first things is the missed place kicks - one cost a win against NZ and it could have cost us against France too. We missed one v England too which proved critical.  

rodders in fairness the NZ miss was more due to the injury than anything and he maybe should have been replaced sooner

England was a good first attempt.  

And it's given a ton of stuff for Schmidt and his video analysis obsession to get on with.  I think I said after the game that even though I was annoyed that we lost, the manner of the loss and the kind of game it was has probably given Schmidt much more help looking into the future than a win might have done.

Same for the French game - another Away game against a top ranked side in no mood to lie down.  Another game that will give a guy like Schmidt so much to work on and think about.

So it's good that we got tough games this season (when you add in New Zealand).  But from here on in we have to try attempting to patch up the weak areas that helped make those games close, and that finally helped England and the All Blacks to be close enough to win - and almost helped France come away with a win too.

These are the sides that present the real obstacles into the future and the WC, and it is imperative that we look into all and any means to make such games less close affairs because, for sure, those sides will be going over what we do with fine tooth combs.  As Schmidt himself said 'If we're as good next year, we'll come in third'

rodders wrote:I wouldn't dream of dropping Sexton but if you are being ultra critical of where we need to improve for me one of the first things is the missed place kicks - one cost a win against NZ and it could have cost us against France too. We missed one v England too which proved critical.  

Missed kicks, poor distance finding touch, kicking away possession against England and causing the attack to break down numerous times against France. Finishing off attacking moves showed his good side but as a 10 he wasn't great.

Sexton's goal kicking is a major issue. Serious thought must be given to seeing could another player (possibly Kearney) take on those duties.

Kicking away possession does sometimes still haunt us when under pressure. (R.Kearney final minutes!) Needs to be firmly stamped out.
We talked about offloading being required only when it's the smart thing to do as in heads-up and working out whether or not it is the best decision.
That's milisecond thinking and deciding. Same must be true for these pressure moments when tense players kick away possession only to have sides hungry for a score come back down our throat.

Sexton didn't miss a place kick against England although his play was below par in general.

England game he was out of it somewhat.  I think there was a suspicion he got a knock.  I wouldn't be critical too much of the England game...but these long delays in taking pressure kicks in big games are evidence that he finds it mentally tough to settle into them.  And the bigger the games, the more important hitting the target becomes.

England ran down Sextons channel nearly every time they got the ball. They battered him (legally) very deliberatley and after 60 minutes he was absolutely shattered. He was out of it. Schmidt should have replaced him at that stage.

I was just thinking.. imagine a pack with a fully fit Healy, Henderson, Ferris and O'Brien.. can you think of a scarier bunch?

Feckless Rogue wrote:England ran down Sextons channel nearly every time they got the ball. They battered him (legally) very deliberatley and after 60 minutes he was absolutely shattered. He was out of it. Schmidt should have replaced him at that stage.

I think that was Schmidt biggest error of the entire tournament