Ireland moving forward

First topic message reminder :

Feel for the Irish boys after yesterday but a few things stood out for me:

We didn't score in 2nd half so I find it hard to say we deserved to win. We still struggle to close out games similar to the French game at Croke Park. I feel these issues have a lot to do with self belief which I think we as nation have struggled with for a long time in sport if I'm being honest. I feel this is JS big challenge with this team and if he can get them believing and producing performances like yesterday on a consistent basis then we'll do some damage in 6 nations and world cups.

Ireland are a different team when they keep ball in hand and don't kick the ball away constantly. This was a really pleasing part of yesterday with all the players backing themselves and each other to keep the ball in hand to put the ABs under pressure. This is without doubt the way forward as shown by the ABs themselves. Encouraging signs from the new coaching set up.

The effort and commitment yesterday was immense. It was the sort of display that made you proud to be Irish. SOB, Healy, POC and Heaslip in particular produced some of the best individual performances I've seen in a long time.

Congrats to NZ. Still the benchmark for how rugby should be played.

Also great to see the new Lansdowne Road rocking.

GunsGerms wrote:The jury is well and truely still out for Fitz at international level. He certainly isnt a finisher, he lacks composure, bad timing and decision maker and generally doesnt link well with team mates. At best I would consider him for the bench as he is reasonably versatile and his defense is good.

I disagree with all of that except the criticism of his finishing.I think he's a hugely improved player but injury has stopped him showing it over the last few years.That said I think the quality of wingers available to Ireland means he is far from certain of a place on the bench,never mind a start.

Golden wrote:When/if everyone is back Schmidt will have some headache picking the back 3

McFadden, Kearney Jnr, Kearney Snr, Fitz,( All players he knows well and has already picked at international level), Gilroy, Zebo, Earls, Henshaw, Bowe, Trimble and soon to be Payne.

Tough to pick only 3 of them in your team,

Not for me -

Payne is the best 15 there, including Kearney
Henshaw is the guy for 13 not the back three
Zebo and Bowe are the choices for the wings - the rest have to prove there are better than those two.
Earls for the bench.

Statistically left wings don't score as many as right wings anyways so I wouldn't worry about Fitzgerald try scoring rate - many of his Ireland caps have been at centre or fullback anyways.

Fitzgerald needs to prove he is a better prospect in the years ahead than 3 of Bowe, Zebo, Gilroy and Earls.
Long way to go yet in my book.

Bowe may well fade but I still think he is behind Zebo, Earls and Gilroy (who still has not reached his potential)

I agree McFadden, kearneyjr and Trimble are probably off the pace and only considered as cover

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:The jury is well and truely still out for Fitz at international level. He certainly isnt a finisher, he lacks composure, bad timing and decision maker and generally doesnt link well with team mates. At best I would consider him for the bench as he is reasonably versatile and his defense is good.

I disagree with all of that except the criticism of his finishing.I think he's a hugely improved player but injury has stopped him showing it over the last few years.That said I think the quality of wingers available to Ireland means he is far from certain of a place on the bench,never mind a start.

How often has Fitz butchered tries for Ireland and Leinster? More than any player I have ever seen. Thats down to composure and decision making as much as everything else, is it not?

How often have we seen him make a lovely break only to get himself all in a muddle and fail to link with anyone? Again decision making and composure. Reminds me of a rugby version of Aidan McGeedy. Both very frustrating players to watch.

I take your point that he is improving but the jury is still out for me.

GunsGerms wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:The jury is well and truely still out for Fitz at international level. He certainly isnt a finisher, he lacks composure, bad timing and decision maker and generally doesnt link well with team mates. At best I would consider him for the bench as he is reasonably versatile and his defense is good.

I disagree with all of that except the criticism of his finishing.I think he's a hugely improved player but injury has stopped him showing it over the last few years.That said I think the quality of wingers available to Ireland means he is far from certain of a place on the bench,never mind a start.

How often has Fitz butchered tries for Ireland and Leinster? More than any player I have ever seen. Thats down to composure and decision making as much as everything else, is it not?

How often have we seen him make a lovely break only to get himself all in a muddle and fail to link with anyone? Again decision making and composure. Reminds me of a rugby version of Aidan McGeedy. Both very frustrating players to watch.

I take your point that he is improving but the jury is still out for me.

I just feel that your criticisms were valid 2 years ago but imo he doesn't make the number of mistakes you mention anymore.I think he has improved in all the areas you mention and while he still occasionally makes the mistakes you mention it doesn't happen nearly as often as you suggest.

He has improved but, at best, contending with Gilroy for 4th in the rankings

Behind Bowe, Zebo and Earls

Dave K is current numero uno for me after the AI's.

Love him or hate him McFadden's record puts him up there too.

Earls remains the Kaiser sosce of Irish rugby, he seems to have half the country convinced he's a decent rugby player in a number of positions without ever having done anything decent in any of them.

rodders wrote:Dave K is current numero uno for me after the AI's.

Love him or hate him McFadden's record puts him up there too.

Earls remains the Kaiser sosce of Irish rugby, he seems to have half the country convinced he's a decent rugby player in a number of positions without ever having done anything decent in any of them.

What did D Kearney do in the AI's, besides being wrongly selected ahead of Gilroy and Fitz? Finished 2 easy opportunities and defended well against the AB's but was very poor against Aus.

He's a good player but doesn't have that spark that Fitz,Gilroy,Bowe,and Zebo and Earls have. I would have him ahead of McFadden though.

Earls is our best line breaker, and if you take all the games he has started wing, he has an excellent try ratio.Was scoring tries for fun at the last WC and 1 less try than the top guys.

Also want to say agin how annoying it is that Kearney seems undroppable even tho he is in such poor form. I'd have Henshaw, Earls, Zebo, his lil' bro, and Gilroy all ahead of him.

rodders wrote:Dave K is current numero uno for me after the AI's.

Love him or hate him McFadden's record puts him up there too.

Earls remains the Kaiser sosce of Irish rugby, he seems to have half the country convinced he's a decent rugby player in a number of positions without ever having done anything decent in any of them.

Form is temporary (Kearney, McFadden) class is permanent (Bowe, Zebo - potentially Gilroy)

Lets see who is in danger of being relegated within the squad?


Its been a bad season for Ian Madigan so far. He seems to have gone downhill since O'Connor took over Leinster. His game management is still not improving which is worrying. Maybe Schmidt is the man to get him playing well? Paddy Jackson is playing much better.


Eoin Reddan. He is getting on a bit in years and has lost a bit of a spark. He also has Marmion breathing down his neck. Personally I think Marmion could be Irelands first choice by the next world cup along with Murray. That means they'll be switched around depending on the opposition.


Isaac Boss. Same as Reddan really. Was never near to number one choice for Ireland anyway and is even older now. Like Reddan I expect Marmion to pass him out.


Declan Fitzpatrick has been injured again. Martin Moore and even Archer could be putting pressure on him. Archer still has to prove himself with another few strong performances but thats possible.


Mike Ross has been playing worse than Martin Moore. Moore already looks like a more powerful scrummager. Although it remains to be seen how good Moore is in other aspect of his game this early in his career.


Mike McCarthy has been playing well but I think his bench spot will go to Iain Henderson. Then again who knows. McCarthy is better at the nitty gritty.


He had a decent AI series but still we could see Devon Toner relegated from starting and maybe the squad. Donnacha Ryan might be back by then and Tuohy is on form in Ulster. I do think that Toner is underrated because he doesn't make any stand out hits etc which seems to be the only think a lot of fans notice. Although gangly, he is a heavy prop with good skills.


Dave Kearney is a solid player but faces opposition from rivals coming back from injury. I personally like Kearney but maybe he lacks an x factor?? Earls, Zebo, Bowe, Gilroy and McFadden could all be ahead of him. If he is selected then it'll probably be down to Schmidts liking of players who make very few mistakes. That can sometimes be underrated.


Any more?

Agree with most of that but your reference to Fitzpatrick is wrong he missed 1 game through a virus.

His injury record this year is actually very good.

He does have a problem that he wont start either HC game games but if he gets a solid 40 mins or so in the 2 games I still think he will make it.

No way Ross will drop completely

Mike Ross is still no 1 TH but will be used more sparingly now for province and country I believe - for sure we'll see more of Fitzpatrick, Moore and the Munster lads.

The lock situation looks pretty strong even ignoring the injured Ryan and recently returned Hendorson. Toner and McCarthy have really improved, POC is still quality and Touhy really can't do any more to show how good he is.

It looks increasingly likely that O'Brien and Heaslip are offski to France, which in SOBs case is a bad move but it gives an opportunity to guys like Ruddock, Dom Ryan, TOD and ..yer man that other young Leinster no 8 - doh ...

Half back looks better than ever with Marmion, Hanaran, Jackson, Madigan, maybe Olding pushing Sexton, Reddan and Murray.

In the backs there are loads of options, which will be increased exponentially by Payne next season - he'll raise the bar for everyone. Dave K is massively underrated I think. Bowe has been one of the best backs Ireland have ever produced but at only 30 I can forsee a situation very soon were he may not make the cut given the talent in the back 3.

I think we are on the cusp of another golden generation, better than the last lot, whether it will come together in time for the next RWC I'm not sure but there seems to be the nucleus of something special if we can build enough depth in the tight 5 over the next few seasons.

rodders wrote:Mike Ross is still no 1 TH but will be used more sparingly now for province and country I believe - for sure we'll see more of Fitzpatrick, Moore and the Munster lads.

The lock situation looks pretty strong even ignoring the injured Ryan and recently returned Hendorson. Toner and McCarthy have really improved, POC is still quality and Touhy really can't do any more to show how good he is.

It looks increasingly likely that O'Brien and Heaslip are offski to France, which in SOBs case is a bad move but it gives an opportunity to guys like Ruddock, Dom Ryan, TOD and ..yer man that other young Leinster no 8 - doh ...

Half back looks better than ever with Marmion, Hanaran, Jackson, Madigan, maybe Olding pushing Sexton, Reddan and Murray.

In the backs there are loads of options, which will be increased exponentially by Payne next season - he'll raise the bar for everyone. Dave K is massively underrated I think. Bowe has been one of the best backs Ireland have ever produced but at only 30 I can forsee a situation very soon were he may not make the cut given the talent in the back 3.

I think we are on the cusp of another golden generation, better than the last lot, whether it will come together in time for the next RWC I'm not sure but there seems to be the nucleus of something special if we can build enough depth in the tight 5 over the next few seasons.

Good post.

For the RWC I think we might see:

Healy/ Mcgrath
Best/ Cronin
Ross/ Moore
Henderson/ Toner
POC
Ferris/ POM
SOB/ Henry
Heaslip/ J Murphy
Murray/ Marmion
Sexton/ JJ (think JJ will surpass Jackson)
Zebo/ Fitz/ Earls
Olding/ Marshall
Payne ??
Bowe/Gilroy
Kearney

That's some team we have at our disposal.

Looking at the pack alone makes my mouth water but when you add a centre combination like Payne and Olding, a fully fit Sexton and a potential back row of Ferris/SOB and Heaslip (although I think POM will be a lot better by 2015) you would have to say we will at the very lest make the semi's

A few places I would disagree

Lock - Ryan and Tuohy have to be in the frame
10 - Jackson will be there no question
13 - Henshaw/Payne
15 - Payne/Kearney

I can see the starting backs now - Murray, Sexton, Zebo, Marshall, Henshaw, Gilroy, Payne

Subs Marmion, Jackson, Earls

Olding the one most likely to break the above

Just occurred to me not a Leinster back amongst them - that would be a sign of the times !

Right put the crystal ball away now Geoff  

I would agree that we're entering a real golden age now. The academies are all full too which has never before happened. That means theres more potential going to come out of them too.


For the next world cup Ireland should have a very strong squad with few weaknesses. I also think there are a few bolters who are not on the radar now that will come through. The likes of Tadhg Furlong could potentially be better than Moore. Tom Farrell in Leinster etc.

I think come 2015, if Joe is still there, we may see a backline off -

9 Murray 10 Sexton
11 Zebo/Gilroy 12 Marshall/Hanaran 13 Payne 14 Kearney
15 Kearney

21. Marmion (will go to Leinster) 22. Hanaran/Madigan 23. Henshaw (to Leinster?) / McFadden

Bowe has had a rough time with injuries and will be 32 come the RWC so could slip down the pecking order along with Earls, Fitzgerald and McFadden.

Jackson and Olding could easily be interchanged with JJ and Madigan - competition will be fierce there in that 10/12 channel.

In the pack its a bit harder to say:-

1- Healy 2 Best 3 ?
4 Toner/Henderson/Ryan 5 POC/McCarthy
6 O'Mahoney 8 Heaslip 7 SOB  

16. Ross/Fitzpatrick/Moore?
17. Kilcoyne  
18. Cronin/Strauss
19. Henderson/Ryan
20. Henry/Ruddock/Murphy/O'Donnell

Payne is the best 15 in Irish rugby

When he is eligible he should play there.

He runs lines other IQ 15's can only dream of.

Any other decision will nullify our best counterattacking player

Agree on all points Geoff but he's the best 13 too by far.

Kearney will be first choice 15 heading into the RWC I have zero doubt about it.

The IRFU have him pinged as a centre so I believe this is how it will play out.

Not so sure.
They will start with Kearney at 15 next autumn but as soon as they try Payne at 15, and they will just to take a look,  it will be game over - the superiority will be obvious
Payne at 13 is good but not great - no better than Cave who isn't considered good enough

Henshaw 13 Payne 15 looks much better to me than
Payne 13 Kearney 15

To mark them:
Henshaw as a 13 - 6(but potentially an 8)
Payne as a 13 - 6
Kearney as a 15 - 7
Payne as a 15 - 9

Demented Mole's analysis of the Autumn tests is out and fascinating:

http://dementedmole.com/2014/01/09/ruck-marks-irelands-autumn-series/

rodders wrote:
I think we are on the cusp of another golden generation, better than the last lot, whether it will come together in time for the next RWC I'm not sure but there seems to be the nucleus of something special if we can build enough depth in the tight 5 over the next few seasons.

Rodders not so long ago you were saying the current crop of players was hugely overrated and that we were years behind Wales and England in development!

My 1st choice team at the moment:

1. McGrath
2. Best
3. Moore
4. Tuohy
5. POC
6. POM
7. TOD
8. Heaslip
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Fitzgerald
12. Marshall
13. BOD
14. Bowe
15. Kearney (not sure why people are complaining about Kearney, I think he has played well since the AIs)

However I definitely think squad development is more important than results in this 6N, without probably our two best forwards I don't have high expectations, certainly against Scotland and Italy I'd like to see some of the likes of Henderson, Murphy, Ruddock, Marmion, Jackson/Madigan/JJ and Henshaw given a role.

theslosty wrote: 15. Kearney (not sure why people are complaining about Kearney, I think he has played well since the AIs)

Are people complaining though?
He is currently the best IQ 15 this year absolutely no question

The point being made is he wont be next year

Id say with yhe style of rugby played in the 6n (due to the weather mainly) Kearney is still first choice because of how good he is under the high ball and his big boot.

Could be a different story in the summer though when Payne can run with the ball.

Wasn't Payne player of the season in the super xv playing centre? Not saying he isn't the best 15 on the island but he's also the best 13.

The problem is henshaw is also much better at 15 then 13.

Wherever joe sees Payne in the Irish team henshaw should be told to play the other position

Golden wrote:Wasn't Payne player of the season in the super xv playing centre? Not saying he isn't the best 15 on the island but he's also the best 13.

The problem is henshaw is also much better at 15 then 13.

Wherever joe sees Payne in the Irish team henshaw should be told to play the other position

I don't think so, Golden. I've never seen Henshaw play well enough at 15 to match the hype he is getting. His display at 13 against Leinster did match up to the hype though. They way he picked a poor pass off the ground, accelerated and broke the tackle in the lead up to the Connacht try was the first time I've seen what he can do. He was always a 13 too but obviously played 15 because he could.


One swallow doesn't make a summer though. Henshaw has a way to go yet for an Ireland 13 spot. His displays have been error prone from what I've seen of him. He always looked a little rushed and trying too hard but as I said, against Leinster he seemed more relaxed and made no mistakes. He is still very young. After BOD, Darren Cave would be my next choice. He isn't a spectacular player but he does the basics well which is underrated IMO.

theslosty wrote:
Rodders not so long ago you were saying the current crop of players was hugely overrated and that we were years behind Wales and England in development!

Looking at the U20s last summer what stood out was their ball skills. They were not the biggest, fastest or most conditioned but they had great handling skills and scored some cracking tries. That team was missing Henshaw and Olding too. It bodes well for the future. This years team is supposed to be good also.

That was the first game were Ive seen him stand out at 13. Did you see him play against toulouse?

He may have played centre at underage level but didnt Keith Earls play outhalf in school? He has a full season of rugby at 15.

Maybe its just a case of getting used to the limited time and space hes given at 13 but everygame ive seen him in except maybe the Leinster one hes looked better at fullback.

Im not saying hes ever going to nail down an irish place but since they can both play the same two positions and payne looking like hell be a fixture in the team for the next few years i think it would be good to have henshaw playing the other one (whichever that is).

wolfball wrote:Demented Mole's analysis of the Autumn tests is out and fascinating:

http://dementedmole.com/2014/01/09/ruck-marks-irelands-autumn-series/

I'm bumping this. It is a long ass read but well worth it for its considered and well researched approach. Some very interesting points about Toner, McFadden, POC, Best Henry and POM. Demented Mole has tried to qualify and quantify the breakdown work of the Irish forwards (sometimes know as the 'unseen work'^TM). It reaffirms much of what I have said countless times about POM, particularly his dreadful scrummaging technique. It must be said I thought he had an average game against New Zealand but these stats tell me that I absolutely wrong and he put in quite a shift in 54 minutes. Very impressive stats indeed. Same with Henry against Samoa. It also just goes to show how bloody good SOB is. He is absolutely phenomenal and this analysis should put pay to those who think he isn't playing as well as he was a couple of seasons ago because he isn't making as many Hollywood carries (that's Hollywood USA, not Hollywood North Down. I wouldn't suggest SOB was carrying the ball like he's middle class).

Payne is unquestionably better than Kearney at 15 at present and is superior in pretty much every facet of his game, except perhaps under the high ball where Kearney is marginally better. I don't really think anyone can argue that Payne isn't the best 15 in Ireland. Whether he will be this time next year, and whether Kearney can get back to his best remains to be seen. But even at his very best Kearney is not as good a counter attacker than Payne.

I'm not on the Payne at 13 bandwagon yet. His defence at 13 in the Super XV could be exposed at times. I would have concerns they would be exacerbated at international level.

Good article from demented mole. I must finish reading it before I go to sleep.

Golden wrote:That was the first game were Ive seen him stand out at 13. Did you see him play against toulouse?

He may have played centre at underage level but didnt Keith Earls play outhalf in school? He has a full season of rugby at 15.

Maybe its just a case of getting used to the limited time and space hes given at 13 but everygame ive seen him in except maybe the Leinster one hes looked better at fullback.

Im not saying hes ever going to nail down an irish place but since they can both play the same two positions and payne looking like hell be a fixture in the team for the next few years i think it would be good to have henshaw playing the other one (whichever that is).

He was good against Toulose too. Butchered an overlap though but I'm probably being harsh there! Maybe he is growing in confidence now.


Whatever about his position, he looks a top athlete with good skills. Its just a matter or refining those skills now to make him a better player. Being in camp with Schmidt will help him.

theslosty wrote:

rodders wrote:
I think we are on the cusp of another golden generation, better than the last lot, whether it will come together in time for the next RWC I'm not sure but there seems to be the nucleus of something special if we can build enough depth in the tight 5 over the next few seasons.

Rodders not so long ago you were saying the current crop of players was hugely overrated and that we were years behind Wales and England in development!

Yeah....I can be fickle like that I suppose ......   

No I think currently Wales and England are ahead of us but maybe not quite as far as I thought, a couple of seasons maybe things could swing back in our favour if the current crop continue to develop - certainly in the backs anyways.

Lets not forget that Wales and England have very young sides - a lot of their guys have 20-30 caps plus and aren't much older than some of the guys we are talking about who are just establishing themselves at provincial level.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Payne is unquestionably better than Kearney at 15 at present and is superior in pretty much every facet of his game, except perhaps under the high ball where Kearney is marginally better.   

No I don't agree, well no I do - Payne is not good under the high ball and is rarely tested at Ulster, nor does he have a great kicking game from the back - his counterattacking instincts and ability mean the defensive aspects of his game are rarely tested at provincial level but would be at international level.

Payne is light years ahead of Kearney in terms of attacking ability but as an orthodox fullback Kearney still offers more security. Who would I pick - Payne every day of the week and twice on sunday's (even though real Ulstermen don't play on Sundays)

In the centre we have no one - Cave isn't good enough, Henshaw is nothing but a prospect playing in a team which loses most games - you can't compare eithers ability at centre with Kearney's, a B&I test Lion, at fullback.

It is my belief that Payne will be first choice outside centre and backup fullback for Ireland. Once the IRFU contract kicks in next season he'll play much more at centre I have zero doubt -unless Kearney gets injured I don't see Payne playing at the back.

Golden wrote:Wasn't Payne player of the season in the super xv playing centre? Not saying he isn't the best 15 on the island but he's also the best 13.

The problem is henshaw is also much better at 15 then 13.

Wherever joe sees Payne in the Irish team henshaw should be told to play the other position

I think this is an interesting debate.

Payne's performance against Munster last week (playing at 15) was incredible.

However, what about Olding? I think this guy could be as good as BOD. The problem is both him and Payne play for the same club so someone's going to get the 13 Jersey. There is no way he will be left on the bench for Cave when both him and Marshall are fit as was the case not so long ago.

So what I could see happening is:

Sexton
Zebo
Marshall
Olding
D Kearney
Payne  

This is a bit of a long shot but I just can't see a player of Olding quality sitting on the bench for too long (for Ulster) so something has got to give. He could end up moving to one of the other Provinces and playing 13 but whatever way you look at it, in Olding and Henshaw we have two quality players who will (in Olding case could be) be competing for the 13 Jersey.

A centre combination of Marshall and Olding would be some prospect

Rodders Payne is tested plenty at fullback particularly in Europe and he is always solid under the high ball. Is he as good as Kearney in this respect? No, but who is? Also kearney's kicking (under Kidney) is aimless and rather poor. He has a big boot and capable of better but more often than not his kicking is poor at international level.

Slane I was told before the season started that the Olding/Marshall combo would have been tried in the Rabo this season. For obvious reasons it hasn't happened. I think Olding is a tremendous footballer but I remain to be convinced that he will make a better 12 than Marshall. I would like I see him at 13. Cave is a very good club player, but he doesn't have he quality to be real international class. He is still better than anything else at our disposal when BOD goes.

Hookie I can't honestly think of many examples of Payne catching a high ball under pressure in Europe - more often than not he knocks on or leaves it for someone else or to bounce. I'll eat my hat if he catches a single high ball tonight - just one - you can pull me on this comment later if he does.

I have a fetching Top Hat I wear to gentlemen's clubs ready or you. Monocle optional.

And I'd be most honoured to don hookie it should said high ball be collected - it has to be a proper high ball though, with at least one opposition player competing not a pretend one..... pressure's on mr payne, rodders is watching.....   

Payne doesn't have a good kicking game from the back?! Are you high?!?

He's an excellent kicking game, really superb   

Double or quits at the first spilled ball...

Notch wrote:Payne doesn't have a good kicking game from the back?! Are you high?!?

He's an excellent kicking game, really superb   

Clearance kicks - not grubbers.

Eating all that unwashed fruit has gone to Rodders head.

rodders wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Payne is unquestionably better than Kearney at 15 at present and is superior in pretty much every facet of his game, except perhaps under the high ball where Kearney is marginally better.   

No I don't agree, well no I do -  Payne is not good under the high ball and is rarely tested at Ulster, nor does he have a great kicking game from the back -  

Rarely do I disagree so completely with a fellow Ulsterman

Payne's kicking is outstanding because he kicks to a selected position - no good Kearney having a big boot it is a liability because the kicking is aimless.
I would put Kearney ahead of Payne under the high ball - Payne isn't bad but Kearney has the edge.
In ever other respect Payne has the edge

Look I categorically think Payne is in the top 2 attacking backs in Europe along with Sivavatu - I just think he offers everything in attack from centre he does at the back.

He also can't catch the ball because he's not really a fullback - which doesn't matter for Ulster because he's so good in attack no one ever kicks to him - but at international level this may be an issue or may not.

I also believe the IRFU have signed him up because we have no top centres not fullbacks so it doesn't matter what anyone thinks, unless he makes a mess of it or gets injured he'll be Irish 13 from November to the RWC and beyond.

Anyone who thinks Joe Schmidt will ever drop Rob Kearney is in la la land - even Nacewa couldn't take his jersey. It won't happen.

slane wrote:

Golden wrote:Wasn't Payne player of the season in the super xv playing centre? Not saying he isn't the best 15 on the island but he's also the best 13.

The problem is henshaw is also much better at 15 then 13.

Wherever joe sees Payne in the Irish team henshaw should be told to play the other position

I think this is an interesting debate.

Payne's performance against Munster last week (playing at 15) was incredible.

However, what about Olding? I think this guy could be as good as BOD. The problem is both him and Payne play for the same club so someone's going to get the 13 Jersey. There is no way he will be left on the bench for Cave when both him and Marshall are fit as was the case not so long ago.

So what I could see happening is:

Sexton
Zebo
Marshall
Olding
D Kearney
Payne  

This is a bit of a long shot but I just can't see a player of Olding quality sitting on the bench for too long (for Ulster) so something has got to give. He could end up moving to one of the other Provinces and playing 13 but whatever way you look at it, in Olding and Henshaw we have two quality players who will (in Olding case could be) be competing for the 13 Jersey.

A centre combination of Marshall and Olding would be some prospect

What will give is Cave will lose his place to Olding.

I feel sorry for Cave he will go in a couple of years from being Ireland 2nd best 13 for a few years (inspite of not being selected) to 2nd best at Ulster and at best 4th in the Irish pecking order

That's life

rodders wrote:

Notch wrote:Payne doesn't have a good kicking game from the back?! Are you high?!?

He's an excellent kicking game, really superb   

Clearance kicks - not grubbers.

You're crazy. I have no idea how you can watch his kicking game and come to that. He rarely puts boot to ball but when he does he always finds grass and its never out on the full.

rodders wrote:Look I categorically think Payne is in the top 2 attacking backs in Europe along with Sivavatu - I just think he offers everything in attack from centre he does at the back.

He also can't catch the ball because he's not really a fullback - which doesn't matter for Ulster because he's so good in attack no one ever kicks to him - but at international level this may be an issue or may not.

I also believe the IRFU have signed him up because we have no top centres not fullbacks so it doesn't matter what anyone thinks, unless he makes a mess of it or gets injured he'll be Irish 13 from November to the RWC and beyond.

Anyone who thinks Joe Schmidt will ever drop Rob Kearney is in la la land - even Nacewa couldn't take his jersey. It won't happen.

Scenario for you

Henshaw really kicks on for Connaught (or Leinster) at 13 who plays 13 and 15 for Ireland then

I simple don't accept Schmidt is blind to Kearney deficiencies

geoff999rugby wrote:Rarely do I disagree so completely with a fellow Ulsterman

Payne's kicking is outstanding because he kicks to a selected position

Totally agree, I was wrong to say he didn't have a kicking game - I mean a defensive kicking game from the back - his range for touch finders aren't good for a 15 - his attacking kicks are superlative I agree.

Notch wrote:

rodders wrote:

Notch wrote:Payne doesn't have a good kicking game from the back?! Are you high?!?

He's an excellent kicking game, really superb   

Clearance kicks - not grubbers.

You're crazy. I have no idea how you can watch his kicking game and come to that. He rarely puts boot to ball but when he does he always finds grass and its never out on the full.

+1 his Clearance kicking is quality because it is intelligent placement not aimless hoofing up the pitch

Notch wrote:

rodders wrote:

Notch wrote:Payne doesn't have a good kicking game from the back?! Are you high?!?

He's an excellent kicking game, really superb   

Clearance kicks - not grubbers.

You're crazy.

Are mods allowed to make unfounded accusations regarding mental health issues or use of illicit substances?   

Question answered in previous post....