Ireland moving forward

First topic message reminder :

Feel for the Irish boys after yesterday but a few things stood out for me:

We didn't score in 2nd half so I find it hard to say we deserved to win. We still struggle to close out games similar to the French game at Croke Park. I feel these issues have a lot to do with self belief which I think we as nation have struggled with for a long time in sport if I'm being honest. I feel this is JS big challenge with this team and if he can get them believing and producing performances like yesterday on a consistent basis then we'll do some damage in 6 nations and world cups.

Ireland are a different team when they keep ball in hand and don't kick the ball away constantly. This was a really pleasing part of yesterday with all the players backing themselves and each other to keep the ball in hand to put the ABs under pressure. This is without doubt the way forward as shown by the ABs themselves. Encouraging signs from the new coaching set up.

The effort and commitment yesterday was immense. It was the sort of display that made you proud to be Irish. SOB, Healy, POC and Heaslip in particular produced some of the best individual performances I've seen in a long time.

Congrats to NZ. Still the benchmark for how rugby should be played.

Also great to see the new Lansdowne Road rocking.

geoff999rugby wrote:Scenario for you

Henshaw really kicks on for Connaught (or Leinster) at 13 who plays 13 and 15 for Ireland then

I simple don't accept Schmidt is blind to Kearney deficiencies

Very good question - Henshaw to Leinster would be a game changer, because we all know a good Leinsterman will get picked over a good Ulster man ....   

I will still bet my house on Payne at 13 and Kearney at 15 - I can't see Henshaw overtaking either in the next 2 years - no chance.

To a degree I can agree with that as I also think that will be how we start the first AI

However my contention, up above, was that once Payne is tried at 15, and will be somewhere, the genie will be out the bottle and Schmidt will look at the Henshaw/Payne alternative very seriously and if Henshaw holds up will stick with it.

 

Payne will be a starting player in the RWC no doubt - the evidence to me now points to the fact it will be in the centre - that could change but I don't think so...well see..

Enjoy the game tonight lads SUFTUM.

Geoff,

I would be reluctant to predict Cave as 4th best just yet. Since the AI he has been outstanding for Ulster.

It is great to see the younger players showing potential, but I think some of the experienced players have a lot of rugby still in them.

The current Irish coaching setup prided themselves on doing the basics (passing/passing/passing) very well - and I think Cave has that.

That is why I think we are a couple of years away from that.

But I do believe Olding, Henshaw and Payne could all be above him in the Irish pecking order after the World Cup

In the hear and now he is still the 2nd best IQ 13

Isn't henshaw signed up til after the World Cup?

One thing I would add is whilst Payne may play a handful of games a year at 13 for Ulster the vast majority will be at 15 - with Marshall, Olding and Cave we would be crazy to have it any other way.

Not great for the International team that a player plays one position for his Province and a different one for his country

Golden wrote:Isn't henshaw signed up til after the World Cup?

He may well be but does anyone, sadly, believe it will go beyond that especially with Leinster centre retirements and, alternatively, Munster less than stellar backline.
One of them will grab him for sure

Once Payne's proposed move to Leinster is dead they'll come looking for Henshaw .......

Its already dead - in fact it was never on

I think Henshaw is a better fullback then 13 having watched him all season. He joins the line very well. Is he better then Payne. Maybe not. But I would prefer Henshaw at 15 and Cave at 13 rather then have Payne anywhere near the team; residency rules are nonsense and the waiting with bated breath from some of the Ulster lads to get a non-Irish player into BODs old jersey really rubs me the wrong way.

A non-Irish player who is class in a glass. I see where you're coming from and I respect it but it will be no consolation to me if Tim Visser leaves us undone in the 2015 Six Nations, or Vunipola and Tuliagi smash us in an England jersey etc.

In an ideal world we'd be able to produce footballers as balanced and complete as Payne in our own academies and we're seeing a few in Olding and Madigan.

Notch wrote:A non-Irish player who is class in a glass. I see where you're coming from and I respect it but it will be no consolation to me if Tim Visser leaves us undone in the 2015 Six Nations, or Vunipola and Tuliagi smash us in an England jersey etc.

In an ideal world we'd be able to produce footballers as balanced and complete as Payne in our own academies and we're seeing a few in Olding and Madigan.

I know most of you get it, and I might have been too provocative in the way i stated it; But I would love to see Ulster fans promoting anyone Irish over Payne BEFORE grudgingly accepting that payne might have to fill that role for us. If Henshaw or Olding or and other Irish player is within spitting distance of Payne, they should be promoted on here and in the media first and foremost. I have nothing against Payne as a person and love watching him play for Ulster; but if he is in an Irish jersey and ireland's Call or Amhrán na bhFiann is playing, will a small part of him not wish he was wearing Black and singing God Defend New Zealand? If its close to a 50:50 call between Payne for the 2015 6 nations and any other irish player, the irish player should get the nod and I would hope the Ulster lads would back the irish lad. I may be in a minority but I would prefer to lose with a non-residency based, fully irish team to an english team full of Samoans then beat them with non-Irish players.

Notch wrote:A non-Irish player who is class in a glass. I see where you're coming from and I respect it but it will be no consolation to me if Tim Visser leaves us undone in the 2015 Six Nations, or Vunipola and Tuliagi smash us in an England jersey etc.

In an ideal world we'd be able to produce footballers as balanced and complete as Payne in our own academies and we're seeing a few in Olding and Madigan.

This thread is generally none of my business although it can make for interesting reading, but I would say that Tuilagi and the vunipolas may have been born overseas but they are products of the English (and for BV/MV to a degree Welsh) junior systems.

Some very good points.

Wolfball - I can see that you were not trying to be provocative - and I do feel uncomfortable with the system as it stands. I guess Ireland, Scotland, and England are simply using the imperfective rules as best they can.

It has just crossed my mind though - Welsh players on the whole seem to be Welsh! Nobody springs to mind that "qualified" - although of course I stand to be corrected.

For me it is fantastic to have some top overseas players in the provincial sides, and help to develop young players - but we don't want to end up like cricket. If you play well enough for Ireland, you get a game for England :-)

Whether or not Payne should be eligible is a different issue from the rugby itself.

I am promoting Payne for the simple reason he is the best man for the job, of those eligible from next year.
Ireland have given him a Central Contract a year before he is eligible which is unprecedented.
They clearly see him as central to the team for next year.

Ireland's record regarding playing residency only players is without equal anywhere where else in the world (not 100% sure on South Africa).

Since Andy Ward in the early 00's (he is still here by the way after 20 years) only Strauss has played via this method of qualification.

I personally think residency should be 5 years but given the rules as are we should pick the best team available, and from next autumn that includes Payne.

wolfball wrote:

Notch wrote:A non-Irish player who is class in a glass. I see where you're coming from and I respect it but it will be no consolation to me if Tim Visser leaves us undone in the 2015 Six Nations, or Vunipola and Tuliagi smash us in an England jersey etc.

In an ideal world we'd be able to produce footballers as balanced and complete as Payne in our own academies and we're seeing a few in Olding and Madigan.

I know most of you get it, and I might have been too provocative in the way i stated it; But I would love to see Ulster fans promoting anyone Irish over Payne BEFORE grudgingly accepting that payne might have to fill that role for us. If Henshaw or Olding or and other Irish player is within spitting distance of Payne, they should be promoted on here and in the media first and foremost. I have nothing against Payne as a person and love watching him play for Ulster; but if he is in an Irish jersey and ireland's Call or Amhrán na bhFiann is playing, will a small part of him not wish he was wearing Black and singing God Defend New Zealand? If its close to a 50:50 call between Payne for the 2015 6 nations and any other irish player, the irish player should get the nod and I would hope the Ulster lads would back the irish lad. I may be in a minority but I would prefer to lose with a non-residency based, fully irish team to an english team full of Samoans then beat them with non-Irish players.

I just want to win and see good rugby players playing rugby. I'd support a change to make it harder to qualify on residency though.

lostinwales wrote:

Notch wrote:A non-Irish player who is class in a glass. I see where you're coming from and I respect it but it will be no consolation to me if Tim Visser leaves us undone in the 2015 Six Nations, or Vunipola and Tuliagi smash us in an England jersey etc.

In an ideal world we'd be able to produce footballers as balanced and complete as Payne in our own academies and we're seeing a few in Olding and Madigan.

This thread is generally none of my business although it can make for interesting reading, but I would say that Tuilagi and the vunipolas may have been born overseas but they are products of the English (and for BV/MV to a degree Welsh) junior systems.

Aye, I'm not questioning their right to play for England. They are here because members of their family emigrated to play their rugby in this part of the world. Thats how they came to be in a position to come through the system, because of economic migration. Payne is ultimately here for the same reason- he's chosen to move to Ireland to make a living as a pro rugby player and make his life here, hence I have no problem with him playing for the country he's chosen to be part of.

wolfball wrote:I think Henshaw is a better fullback then 13 having watched him all season. He joins the line very well. Is he better then Payne. Maybe not. But I would prefer Henshaw at 15 and Cave at 13 rather then have Payne anywhere near the team; residency rules are nonsense and the waiting with bated breath from some of the Ulster lads to get a non-Irish player into BODs old jersey really rubs me the wrong way.

I actually agree with this. It just doesn't sit well with me, and I think it will get worse if the residency rules are left as they are.

Signing CJ Stander and Jake Heenan for example, two very young prospects as project players, is practically stealing talent from other countries in my book. CJ especially had a huge future for SA which has now been halted.

Change the rule to 7 years and we will truly see who is committed to adopt a new national team.

wolfball wrote:
I know most of you get it, and I might have been too provocative in the way i stated it; But I would love to see Ulster fans promoting anyone Irish over Payne BEFORE grudgingly accepting that payne might have to fill that role for us. If Henshaw or Olding or and other Irish player is within spitting distance of Payne, they should be promoted on here and in the media first and foremost.

No sorry wolfie I couldn't disagree more - if Payne is IQ then he is Irish, in the rugby definition of the word, and if Olding or Payne want to get selected then they need to be better than him, just as Bestie and Cronin need to be better than Strauss. Ideally all players would be homegrown, but not because they are home grown but because they are the best players.

rodders wrote:

wolfball wrote:
I know most of you get it, and I might have been too provocative in the way i stated it; But I would love to see Ulster fans promoting anyone Irish over Payne BEFORE grudgingly accepting that payne might have to fill that role for us. If Henshaw or Olding or and other Irish player is within spitting distance of Payne, they should be promoted on here and in the media first and foremost.

No sorry wolfie I couldn't disagree more - if Payne is IQ then he is Irish, in the rugby definition of the word, and if Olding or Payne want to get selected then they need to be better than him, just as Bestie and Cronin need to be better than Strauss. Ideally all players would be homegrown, but not because they are home grown but because they are the best players.

Yeah have to reluctantly agree with this,I will oppose Payne playing in a green jersey until the day he qualifies and then I'll support him just like every other player.

I was just thinking who will be Ireland 10 come the 6ns? Will Sexton still have the shirt, or will Madigan, Jackson take it off him?

Nah Sexton will start - Madigan or Jackson on the bench, maybe Hanaran.... I would think...

Hoping for a rejuvenated and extremely belligerent Sexton to show up and make a statement once he's had a bit of a break from Racing.

Great to see Connacht with 13 points in the Heineken cup.

Henshaw gets a try playing 13. Didn't see the game though how'd he go? Parks was dropped for Carty again. Always nice to see young irish player getting games. Presume lam is thinking if were bottom of the league anyway we might as well play a young promising player.

This Keatley guy for Munster is looking pretty sharp. Will he be in the Ireland squad for the 6ns?

Nope probably 4th choice for Ireland will be 5th soon enough. Very lucky to be starting tonight

Golden wrote:Great to see Connacht with 13 points in the Heineken cup.

Henshaw gets a try playing 13. Didn't see the game though how'd he go?  Parks was dropped for Carty again. Always nice to see young irish player getting games. Presume lam is thinking if were bottom of the league anyway we might as well play a young promising player.

Henshaw was grand today. Carr was very good and Healy F'd up 2-3 try groundings yet somehow got man of the match. Carty kicked well in open play well but took the wrong option a couple of times. Marmion was absolutely outstanding. I would have Henshaw and Marmion both in the 23 for the 6 nations, no one else IQ from Conn worth a place in the squad.

Golden wrote:Nope probably 4th choice for Ireland will be 5th soon enough. Very lucky to be starting tonight

Pecking order right now is:

Sexton
Jackson
Madigan
JJ
Keatly
.
.
.
.
Carty

Cant see JJ getting picked ahead of Keatley if he can't get ahead of him at provincial level, although would take a few injuries before either are in contention. Although by the end of the season he'll probably be 1st choice

I thought Jacksons display against Montpellier was one of the best I've seen him play, if not the best. He did everything well and is firmly ahead of Madigan at this stage and progressing nicely. Madigan needs a big month to regain his form. He is a few years older than Jackson as it is.

wolfball wrote:

Golden wrote:Nope probably 4th choice for Ireland will be 5th soon enough. Very lucky to be starting tonight

Pecking order right now is:

Sexton
Jackson
Madigan
JJ
Keatly
.
.
.
.
Carty

TBF I think Keatly should be ahead of Madigan on form. I don't like this idea of a packing order I get that Sexton and Jackson are 1st and 2nd but we need to award good form and apart from the Ulster match Keatly has played well, actually reminded me somewhat of O`Gara the way he played last night. To add to that he is first for his province and unlike Jackson in the big H-Cup games he takes the kicks and he can play 12. I wouldn't be surprised to see him in Joe's squad, it's a good headache to have.

Cain Healey on the bench today that's a huge boost to our 6N chances,assuming he hasn't been rushed back too soon.

Good news about Healy and it was also great to see POC in such inspired form last night, whilst I agree that BOD is very much a fading force you should not tar POC with the same brush, he is still the best lock in Europe and will be crucial to our chances.

Healy Best Fitzpatrick/Moore

Tuohy POC


Quality front five, arguably best on paper of the 6N teams.

Murray Sexton/Jackson Marshall .... Best 9-12 channel of 6N teams.

Any trio of Earls,Zebo,Henshaw,Fitz,Gilroy = quality back 3.

Question is is our back row without SOB up to it?

Henry and Heaslip pretty much nailed on who plays 6?

POM,Locky,Diack,Murphy,Ruddock,Henderson,TOD .... I'd go POM,Murphy, or Hendo, we need someone abrasive seeing as Henry and Heaslip are more workhorse types.

Pretty good weekend for the provinces with Munster impressing the most for me.

Ulster:

Best, Henry and Jackson were the pick of the Irish guys with Diack continuing to be Ulster player of the season for me. Trimble was superb under the high ball and maybe finding some form again. The tight 5 found it tough at times against the big Montpellier pack.

Connacht:

Only seen the highlights but impressed with the young backs again - Henshaw, Carr and the other winger Healy(?).

Munster:

Big performance from POC. O'Mahoney look strong with his carrying. Keatley and Johne Murphy had excellent games and the Munster forwards generally had a good day.

Leinster:

Heaslip, Fitzgerald, Reddan and Cronin look in very good form. Leinsters pack took a bit of a battering though and BO'D looks totally off the pace.

Irish team of the weekend.

15 Kearney
14 Healy
13 Henshaw
12 Marshall
11 Fitzgerald
10 Jackson/Keatley
9 Reddan
7 Henry
8 Heaslip
6 O'Mahoney
5 O'Connell
4 Butler
3 Fitzpatrick
2 Best
1 Healy

Also not sure if Joe Schmidts interview on the Late late show has been mentioned?

O'Connell is confirmed as captain and Joe says there will be no surprises in the squad selection selection, with Ferris and SOB ruled out.

He also said he won't be prioritising youth with the longer term in mind, which seems to suggest he'll stick with the older guys for the foreseeable future in the big games.

Not sure he specifically said he wont be prioritising youth. He said age is just a number. The number of tackles a player makes is a more important number. He also said that POC will be captain as you say and that there wont be any surprises.

Well he was asked specifically if he was planning to leave out the 'warhorses' with a mind for building for the future and the answer was no, so that can be interpreted as in tight calls like Marshall v D'arcy he won't be factoring the longer term into the selection.

rodders wrote:Well he was asked specifically if he was planning to leave out the 'warhorses' with a mind for building for the future and the answer was no, so that can be interpreted as in tight calls like Marshall v D'arcy he won't be factoring the longer term into the selection.

Did he specifically say no or respond as I said that age is just a number? He probably has the squad finalised but not the first match day squad or team. Im not sure we can reliably predict whether Darcy or Marshall will start. Id imagine, Darcy, Marshall and O'Driscoll will all get game time.

I really do not want to see D'Arcy or BOD play to be honest, both absolute legends of Irish rugby but are glaringly slow for pace these days. They are good for the odd bit of genius play but go missing for large periods of matches and this will cost Ireland on the international stage. Marshall is a cert for 12 but 13 is still a hard position to fill.

Sexton looks tired and low on confidence so I would start with Jackson and have Madigan or JJ off the bench.

I would be happy to start with Jackson but its a bit harsh on Darcy who has been really good recently. Particularly v NZ. That said I would also be happy with Marshall.

He was good against the AB's guns but prior to that, can you remember his last good game for Ireland? In the last 4-5 years he has one good game every 5 or 6 matches for Ireland so is not consistent enough I feel. Marshall for me every day of the week.

As for Sexton, I knew that the moment he left Leinster that he would go off the boil and feared that he would drop into the International wasteland and its happening at a rate of knots.

Nachos Jones wrote:He was good against the AB's guns but prior to that, can you remember his last good game for Ireland? In the last 4-5 years he has one good game every 5 or 6 matches for Ireland so is not consistent enough I feel. Marshall for me every day of the week.

As for Sexton, I knew that the moment he left Leinster that he would go off the boil and feared that he would drop into the International wasteland and its happening at a rate of knots.

Darcy has had slumps but he is definitely better than 1 in 5 good games for his country in the last 5 years.

D'arcy has definitely being playing better since he took up yoga and grew a beard but really in his pre face muff days you're going back to 09 since he had an impressive run of form.

GunsGerms wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:He was good against the AB's guns but prior to that, can you remember his last good game for Ireland? In the last 4-5 years he has one good game every 5 or 6 matches for Ireland so is not consistent enough I feel. Marshall for me every day of the week.

As for Sexton, I knew that the moment he left Leinster that he would go off the boil and feared that he would drop into the International wasteland and its happening at a rate of knots.

Darcy has had slumps but he is definitely better than 1 in 5 good games for his country in the last 5 years.

In my opinion, he has been a shadow of himself since 09. He does have the odd good game but they are massively overshadowed by his off games. Maybe I am over doing it by saying 1-5 but I would wager that I would be close to the mark.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing but respect for D'Arcy and what he has done for Ireland.

GunsGerms wrote:I would be happy to start with Jackson but its a bit harsh on Darcy who has been really good recently. Particularly v NZ. That said I would also be happy with Marshall.

That's the thing, both BOD and Darcy can get it up for big Marquee games, but Scotland in February? I don't think they have it in them for more then a handful of games a year. The rest of the match's they are often passengers. We can't afford passenger's in the 6 Nations, though i expect BOD to start 4 games and Darcy to start 3 from my understanding of Schmidt. Marshal and Henshaw for the other matches.

It would be a complete disgrace if Schmidt starts both D'Arcy and O'Driscoll for the 6 nations.