Ireland moving forward

First topic message reminder :

Feel for the Irish boys after yesterday but a few things stood out for me:

We didn't score in 2nd half so I find it hard to say we deserved to win. We still struggle to close out games similar to the French game at Croke Park. I feel these issues have a lot to do with self belief which I think we as nation have struggled with for a long time in sport if I'm being honest. I feel this is JS big challenge with this team and if he can get them believing and producing performances like yesterday on a consistent basis then we'll do some damage in 6 nations and world cups.

Ireland are a different team when they keep ball in hand and don't kick the ball away constantly. This was a really pleasing part of yesterday with all the players backing themselves and each other to keep the ball in hand to put the ABs under pressure. This is without doubt the way forward as shown by the ABs themselves. Encouraging signs from the new coaching set up.

The effort and commitment yesterday was immense. It was the sort of display that made you proud to be Irish. SOB, Healy, POC and Heaslip in particular produced some of the best individual performances I've seen in a long time.

Congrats to NZ. Still the benchmark for how rugby should be played.

Also great to see the new Lansdowne Road rocking.

rodders wrote:If you want experience of running in soft tries against the US and botching tries against tier 1 opposition by not passing then Earls is your guy.

He has three tries v Wales. Thats more than Fitz all together who has never scored v tier one opposition. He has only scored v Italy almost 5 years ago.

I just think Earls is a poor player and his selection is embarrassing. He wouldn't get a pro contract outside Ireland.

In fact he only gets selected for 2 reasons - 1) his da 2) he's from Moyross so there is a backlash from the indo and Munster fans if he's left out.

Its classic positive discrimination.

rodders wrote:If you want experience of running in soft tries against the US and botching tries against tier 1 opposition by not passing then Earls is your guy.

Wow, I know you don't like the guy but try to keep some perspective...

I don't dislike him I just think players should have to earn their place.

What time is the team announced?

rodders wrote:I don't dislike him I just think players should have to earn their place.

I am sorry but he has earned everyone of his international caps, as has every player to have played for Ireland has and to say that his selection is embarrassing is really not showing yourself in a good light for a reasonable debate.

He has not always been at his best for Ireland, like no player has been, but he has performed admirably as his continual selection for both Munster and Ireland is proof enough that if in form, he is a top class finisher and worthy of his selection.

Doh, team isn't even announced today is it?  Its the Welsh team announcement I was thinking of.

Notch said earlier it was going to be announced around 4

Some pretty laughable things being said about Keith Earls. His selection for Ireland is down to his talent and hard work. To say he only got near the Ireland set up because of his da and where he's from is ridiculous. Do you think those reasons held weight when he was selected for the lions??

Gretgael1 wrote:Some pretty laughable things being said about Keith Earls. His selection for Ireland is down to his talent and hard work. To say he only got near the Ireland set up because of his da and where he's from is ridiculous. Do you think those reasons held weight when he was selected for the lions??

POC was captain of that Lions team and he may have helped in getting Earls on board. In my opinion he was worth his Lions selection and POC wouldnt have picked him if he wasnt good enough. Same for Ireland, I reckon he is a top class player.

At times he doesnt link that well with support players but that would be my only criticism. He has the best eye for a gap in Ireland (other than Zebo and Murray on a night out) and his finishing is very good.

I defo think he is better than Fitz.

Anyone know when the under 20s squad is announced?

GunsGerms wrote:

Gretgael1 wrote:Some pretty laughable things being said about Keith Earls. His selection for Ireland is down to his talent and hard work. To say he only got near the Ireland set up because of his da and where he's from is ridiculous. Do you think those reasons held weight when he was selected for the lions??

POC was captain of that Lions team and he may have helped in getting Earls on board. In my opinion he was worth his Lions selection and POC wouldnt have picked him if he wasnt good enough. Same for Ireland, I reckon he is a top class player.

At times he doesnt link that well with support players but that would be my only criticism. He has the best eye for a gap in Ireland (other than Zebo and Murray on a night out) and his finishing is very good.

I defo think he is better than Fitz.

Earls frustrates me more then any other player. He honestly could have been one of the greats for Ireland, such is his talent. But I think being the Lions bolter and having his confidence destroyed their, plus the constant moving of him around positions mean he has become in some ways our Matthew Tait (an exaggeration but you know what you mean). Earls as of now is a top Heineken Cup level winger, an average international and a Rabo level 13/15. He could have been so much more. He will start for Ireland as of now because of some of our under-cooked wings, but he is behind the ulster lads/zebo and on par with Fitz.

rodders wrote:I just think Earls is a poor player and his selection is embarrassing. He wouldn't get a pro contract outside Ireland.

.

What a stupid thing to say

I'd take Earls as a winger, over Fitzgerald, any day.
I would not have him anywhere near the 13 shirt - ever

Can't find anything about the team announcement on IrishRugby.ie :/

Gretgael1 wrote:Some pretty laughable things being said about Keith Earls. His selection for Ireland is down to his talent and hard work. To say he only got near the Ireland set up because of his da and where he's from is ridiculous. Do you think those reasons held weight when he was selected for the lions??

I think he got on the Lions because of Donal Lenihan and O'Connell.

Keith Earls wouldn't get a pro contract in NZ, and possibly would find it hard to get a pro contract in Aus or SA. But anywhere else in the world he would definitely make the grade. You think the Italians or Scots couldn't use a guy like him? He couldn't easily play on the wing for most Aviva Prem sides or Top14 clubs? Think someone is playing silly buggers here...

We all know he lacks the rugby brain to play centre, as well as that he ist the most mentally strong player we have. But there's no need to massively overstate the problems he has. If he starts in the Six Nations on the wing for us he will definitely score tries, no doubt about it.

IRFU twitter: Seven uncapped players in the Ireland squad.....#ticktock

The Ireland coaching staff have announced an extended squad of 44 players for the forthcoming RBS 6 Nations Championships and the O2 Ireland Wolfhounds fixture against England Saxons.
Head Coach Joe Schmidt, explained, "As always a number of the selections were very tight. Following on from the Guinness Series, there is an experienced core of players in the squad who will offer continuity, as well as some new additions who have been selected with an eye to the future.
With Robin Copeland returning to play in Ireland next season it will be an opportunity for him to impress during the training week, while some of the younger or less experienced players such as Rob Herring, Iain Henderson, Rhys Ruddock, Kieran Marmion and Felix Jones have turned in some very positive performances to earn spots in the squad."

A number of players currently injured or returning from injury will remain with their provinces to gain further recovery time or game time.

They include Richardt Strauss, Donnacha Ryan, Roger Wilson, Tommy Bowe, Simon Zebo, Declan Fitzpatrick and Craig Gilroy. Some of these players may yet return for RBS 6 Nations test matches.

There is also the injured group of Sean O'Brien, Stephen Ferris, Mike Sherry and Stuart Olding who will be unavailable in the longer term.

Ireland's opening fixture of the 6 Nations is against Scotland in the Aviva Stadium on Sunday 2nd February. Reigning champions Wales visit Dublin six days later and Ireland then travel to Twickenham to face England on the 22nd February.

Ireland's final home game of the Championships is against Italy on 8th of March before the team travels to Paris to take on Philippe Saint-Andre's French side on the 15th March. Ireland's three home games in the Aviva Stadium are sold out.

The O2 Ireland Wolfhounds will play England Saxons in Kingsholm, Gloucester on Saturday 25th January with a mixture of youth and experience likely to make up the squad selected for this match.

IRELAND Extended 2014 RBS 6 Nations Championship Squad

Forwards (24)
Rodney Ah You (Buccaneers/Connacht)*
Stephen Archer (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
Robin Copeland (Cardiff Blues)*
Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Robbie Diack (Malone/Ulster)*
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster)
Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster)
Rob Herring (Ballinahinch/Ulster)*
David Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster)
Mike McCarthy (Leinster)
Jack McGrath (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Martin Moore (Lansdowne/Leinster)*
Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster)*
Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster)
Tommy O'Donnell (UL Bohemians/Munster)
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
Rhys Ruddock (St Mary's College/Leinster)
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)
Damian Varley (Garryowen/Munster)

Backs (20)
Isaac Boss (Terenure College/Leinster)
Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock College/Leinster)
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)
Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster)
Felix Jones (Shannon/Munster)
David Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
Ian Keatley (Young Munster/Munster)
Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)
Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht)*
Luke Marshall (Ballymena/Ulster)
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Jonathan Sexton (Racing Metro 92)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)

*Denotes uncapped player

Notch wrote: You think the Italians or Scots couldn't use a guy like him?

You seriously think he makes the Scottish back 3 ahead of Maitland, Visser, Hogg, Lamont or Evans? You're having a giraffe Notch. You are insulting these teams, some of them have better options than us.

Excellent squad. Some really deserving call ups there for the likes of Diack, Herring, Ruddock, Copeland and keatley amongst others.

Ye nothing really learned from such a big squad.

Odd that Zebo Ryan and gilroy were all told to stay with the provinces to get fit yet McFadden was called straight in with out any gametime

Who that isnt injured but decent has been left out? 44 is almost all the good players in Ireland.

Can you be named in a training squad if you arent eligable yet? I remember Strauss being seen in Ireland gear before he was eligable. Why not get Payne involved in these squads already if he is definitely going to be involved in Nov.

Locky isn't mentioned

Rodney Ah You ahead of James Cronin? I persume Cronin is injured?

gleesonisgod wrote:Locky isn't mentioned

Given his performance at the weekend he's best keeping a low profile.... way behind Diack and Ruddock on form.

Also I would have liked Morris ahead of Jones. Besides that its ok.

LHs: Healy, McGrath, Kilcoyne
HKs: Best, Cronin, Herring, Varley
THs: Ross, Moore, Ah-You, Archer
LKs: POC, Tuohy, McCarthy, Toner, Henderson
BRs: Heaslip, POM, Henry, Ruddock, Copeland, Diack, TOD, Murphy

SHs: Murray, Boss, Marmion, Reddan
FH's: Sexton, Jackson, Madigan, Keatley
CTs: Darcy, BOD, Marshall, Henshaw, Cave
B3s: Kearney, Earls, Fitzgerald, Jones, Trimble, McFadden, Kearney

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:LHs: Healy, McGrath
HKs: Best, Cronin, Herring, Varley
THs: Ross, Moore, Ah-You, Archer
LKs: POC, Tuohy, McCarthy, Toner, Henderson
BRs: Heaslip, POM, Henry, Ruddock, Copeland, Diack, TOD, Murphy

SHs: Murray, Boss, Marmion, Reddan
FH's: Sexton, Jackson, Madigan, Keatley
CTs: Darcy, BOD, Marshall, Henshaw, Cave
B3s: Kearney, Earls, Fitzgerald, Jones, Trimble, McFadden, Kearney

Can any of the THs play LH? short on the LH side with Healy only just back from injury. Also, hope that Marmion finally gets capped. Connacht's player of the year so far.

A few things...

1) Think with Zebo, Bowe and Gilroy returning that will push out Jones, Trimble and Kearney. This would be welcome news as the latter 3 are good but not great.

2) Why no Court? Is Ah-You being seen as the versatile prop?

3) Not sure Ryan will make it in to that bunch without some proper game time. All locks are playing really well at the mo.

4) I really hope Marmion, Tuohy, Moore and Henshaw get some meaningful gametime.

5) Should Cronin start ahead of Best on form????

I think especially with Sob out bests groundwork will be too important too leave out

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:A few things...

1) Think with Zebo, Bowe and Gilroy returning that will push out Jones, Trimble and Kearney. This would be welcome news as the latter 3 are good but not great.

2) Why no Court? Is Ah-You being seen as the versatile prop?

3) Not sure Ryan will make it in to that bunch without some proper game time. All locks are playing really well at the mo.

4) I really hope Marmion, Tuohy, Moore and Henshaw get some meaningful gametime.

5) Should Cronin start ahead of Best on form????

Nope,can't hook,his throwing is still ropey at times and while he is a great ball carrier he doesn't do anything like the ruck work that Best does.He's also far more suited to the role of impact sub than Best is imo,so you lose Bests scrummaging,hard graft at the breakdown and Cronins impact and injection of pace late in the game if he starts.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:A few things...

1) Think with Zebo, Bowe and Gilroy returning that will push out Jones, Trimble and Kearney. This would be welcome news as the latter 3 are good but not great.

2) Why no Court? Is Ah-You being seen as the versatile prop?

3) Not sure Ryan will make it in to that bunch without some proper game time. All locks are playing really well at the mo.

4) I really hope Marmion, Tuohy, Moore and Henshaw get some meaningful gametime.

5) Should Cronin start ahead of Best on form????

1) I think that is harsh - Jones, Kearney and as of last weekend Trimble are in better form than the former 3.

2) Court is struggling with the scrum laws and is having a poor enough season.

3) agree, lock is very competitive.

4) agree but think wolfhounds is the ticket for these 3 at best.

5) No, Cronin is playing exceptionally well but Best was immense on Friday and for me is one of the first names on the team sheet these days.

I agree re Best. He was one of Ireland's top three players last year IMO. POC, Best, SOB (when not injured) and Healy are all key players IMO.

In terms of form I think Fitz, R.Kearney and Earls are the best of the bunch so Trimble, Jones and D.Kearney are left out there.

In terms of class I think Bowe, Gilroy and Zebo all have considerably more short term potential.

I don't see how Trimble, Jones or D.Kearney can get a look in, injuries aside.


Excellent points re: Best, I just thought with Cronin in very good form and Best being out for a while it may give Cronin a chance. I hope we don't get down to 3rd or 4th choice hooker because after Cronin the standard drops a fair bit.

rodders wrote:

Notch wrote: You think the Italians or Scots couldn't use a guy like him?

You seriously think he makes the Scottish back 3 ahead of Maitland, Visser, Hogg, Lamont or Evans? You're having a giraffe Notch. You are insulting these teams, some of them have better options than us.  

No, but you claimed that he wouldn't get a professional contract in any other country. He'd sure as hell do a better job on the wing than Byron McGuigan or Heifin O'Hare at Glasgow or even be a better utility back than Ben Atiga at Edinburgh... professional players all. Glasgow used to use Rob Dewey on the wing for goodness sake! There are a lot of other professional players and teams in Europe. He'd be comfortably capable of playing in the English championship or ProD2- he would be able to play well below his potential there. What about Russia? There are 10 professional club sides in Russia, I'm sure Earls would be well able to find his feet there...

I think he is better that Lamont or Evans and Maitland is over rated. He is probably better than him too.

We'll have to agree to disagree re keith - he has yet another Ireland reprieve so lets see what he can do. Good luck to him.

Notch wrote: What about Russia?

Honestly my knowledge of rugby in Russia isn't great but I'm guessing they expect their pro players to be able to run and pass at the same time......

Sorry couldn't resist

2 more non Irish = joke. Payne and Nathan White to come next season along with Strauss. Its becoming a joke now.

Of the squad, glad to see Copeland selected. If you need an extra ball carrier then he's your man.

Lots of men selections too. Felix Jones, Trimble, Varley, Boss etc.

Positives are Copeland, Marmion, Cave etc.

My thoughts:

1. Healy for all 5 games - McGrath bench
2. Best for 5 games - Cronin bench
3. Ross for 3 games - Moore and Fitzpatrick to start one game each as well as bench
4. Tuohy 3 games - Ryan 2 games
5. POC 5 games - Toner/McCarthy bench
6. POM 4 games - Henderson 1 game and bench
7. Henry 4 games - TOD 1 game
8. Heaslip 5 games - maybe one bench appearance from Murphy
9. Murray 5 games - Marmion bench
10. Sexton 4 games - Jackson start first game plus bench
11. Fitzgerald - let Zebo/Gilroy earn their places
12. Marshall 3 games - D'arcy 2 games
13. BOD 4 games  (though he may not manage it) - Cave one game plus bench
14. Earls - let Bowe earn his place
15. Kearney 5 games - Henshaw bench

profitius wrote:2 more non Irish = joke. Payne and Nathan White to come next season along with Strauss. Its becoming a joke now.

Kinda agree but neither Ah You or Herring will get capped Id say. Interestingly France who seem to love naturalising decent rugby players dont have any foreigners in their 6N squad.

GunsGerms wrote:

profitius wrote:2 more non Irish = joke. Payne and Nathan White to come next season along with Strauss. Its becoming a joke now.

Kinda agree but neither Ah You or Herring will get capped Id say. Interestingly France who seem to love naturalising decent rugby players dont have any foreigners in their 6N squad.

Herring is as Irish as Tom Court or Isaac Boss. Think Diack is the second one.

GunsGerms wrote:

profitius wrote:2 more non Irish = joke. Payne and Nathan White to come next season along with Strauss. Its becoming a joke now.

Kinda agree but neither Ah You or Herring will get capped Id say. Interestingly France who seem to love naturalising decent rugby players dont have any foreigners in their 6N squad.

I like the way they threw money and capped Noa Nakaitaci just so he would be tied down to France even though he will probably never play for them again. Now he can't represent his own country when he would have probably went on to get 30- 40 caps with Fiji. That annoys me the most about the poaching of Islanders. The same happened with Saimone Taumoepeau.

theslosty wrote:My thoughts:

1. Healy for all 5 games - McGrath bench
2. Best for 5 games - Cronin bench
3. Ross for 3 games - Moore and Fitzpatrick to start one game each as well as bench
4. Tuohy 3 games - Ryan 2 games
5. POC 5 games - Toner/McCarthy bench
6. POM 4 games - Henderson 1 game and bench
7. Henry 4 games - TOD 1 game
8. Heaslip 5 games - maybe one bench appearance from Murphy
9. Murray 5 games - Marmion bench
10. Sexton 4 games - Jackson start first game plus bench
11. Fitzgerald - let Zebo/Gilroy earn their places
12. Marshall 3 games - D'arcy 2 games
13. BOD 4 games  (though he may not manage it) - Cave one game plus bench
14. Earls - let Bowe earn his place
15. Kearney 5 games - Henshaw bench

I agree that Bowe shouldn't automatically walk into the team if fit. He's a great player but his form wasn't that good even before he got injured. Hopefully the competition for a place will up his game. Ideally, I'd like an in form Bowe on one wing and either Gilroy or Zebo on the opposite. I like our wingers to have contrasting styles, a real all rounder like Bowe and the trickery and pace of Gilroy/Zebo.

Overall very pleased - a measured balance between form and ability.

On the residence front Diack has been here 5 years and has committed to, at least, another 3 so by any measure he would qualify via residency.

Also his selection sends out a message if you are playing well enough you make the squad.
That is a healthy message to send out.

For completeness the omitted players mentioned

They include Richardt Strauss, Donnacha Ryan, Roger Wilson, Tommy Bowe, Simon Zebo, Declan Fitzpatrick and Craig Gilroy. Some of these players may yet return for RBS 6 Nations matches.

There is also the injured group of Sean O'Brien, Stephen Ferris, Mike Sherry and Stuart Olding who will be unavailable in the longer term.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

profitius wrote:2 more non Irish = joke. Payne and Nathan White to come next season along with Strauss. Its becoming a joke now.

Kinda agree but neither Ah You or Herring will get capped Id say. Interestingly France who seem to love naturalising decent rugby players dont have any foreigners in their 6N squad.

I like the way they threw money and capped Noa Nakaitaci just so he would be tied down to France even though he will probably never play for them again. Now he can't represent his own country when he would have probably went on to get 30- 40 caps with Fiji. That annoys me the most about the poaching of Islanders. The same happened with Saimone Taumoepeau.

Would it be fair to argue a residency reversal or something? Like three years of non-selection allows your dual eligibility to kick back in? You could argue its better for the game globally for these players to play for their home nations again - potentially lifting the all round standard of play.

(I doubt it would ever happen though)

Leaving aside the non Irish issue, the squad as a whole looks stronger than last year. There's a few more players around who look international class potentially. Moore, Copeland, Marmion, Jordi M and a few others.


Selection wise I think Schmidt will continue to rotate the team. There's too many close calls for any player to be guaranteed selection and I also expect the first choice players like POC, BOD, Heaslip might not play every game.

GunsGerms wrote:

profitius wrote:2 more non Irish = joke. Payne and Nathan White to come next season along with Strauss. Its becoming a joke now.

Kinda agree but neither Ah You or Herring will get capped Id say. Interestingly France who seem to love naturalising decent rugby players dont have any foreigners in their 6N squad.

Am pretty sure they have bernard le roux who despite his name is from SA. It's only a 30 men squad as well.

Out of interest what is the point of a 44 men squad? Do they expect to need 2 full teams for training/purposes? I guess some of those guys have zero chance to make the cut.

whocares wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

profitius wrote:2 more non Irish = joke. Payne and Nathan White to come next season along with Strauss. Its becoming a joke now.

Kinda agree but neither Ah You or Herring will get capped Id say. Interestingly France who seem to love naturalising decent rugby players dont have any foreigners in their 6N squad.

Am pretty sure they have bernard le roux who despite his name is from SA. It's only a 30 men squad as well.

Out of interest what is the point of a 44 men squad? Do they expect to need 2 full teams for training/purposes? I guess some of those guys have zero chance to make the cut.

The squad covers the Wolfhounds as well,so two full teams are needed.