The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub, Pyongyang

First topic message reminder :

Hello and welcome to the Virtual Rugby Pub, a place where you can come in for a sly beverage and discuss whatever's on your mind, or just eavesdrop on the regulars if you fancy a break from all the rugby chat.

The pub has made its way to Pyongyang in a bid to persuade Kim Jong Un to pack away the missiles, grab a beer and watch the rugby.

The only rule in this pub is one of mutual respect for everyone in it, oh and no tampering with the pictures of Donal Walsh, Chris & the late Hannah Eaton, the retiring Marcus Horan, the recently hospitalised Schalk Burger (with meningitis), the recuperated Jacques Burger, and the three-peating ANBL champion NZ Breakers





Previous pub: https://www.606v2.com/t42107-the-dew-drop-inn-virtual-rugby-walkabout-covent-garden

True enough.

Morning/afternoon All.

Afternoon Micky.


All, we're trying to get some feedback on the site, if you've got a couple of minutes can you have a gander at:
Part 1 - http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/36B5BN7
and
Part 2 - http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/GKVF7VY

Hi Pete,

Got an email earlier and filled it out for you pal.

Fairly disturbing news coming out of London. Details obviously still sketchy but some of the video footage is absolutely horrendous. Obviously it's impossible for an outsider like me to judge (and thus this sentence is pointless) but I can't for the life of me imagine as a bystander not intervening against such an atrocity. Instead the reaction is to break out one's iPhone and start filming...

Lord help society.

Words fail me Willy, just very, very angry.

Think of the nurse, the doctor, the policeman and yes even the defence lawyer, paid by the State to provide those men with a service without favour or prejudice. As youngsters might say, that's mad Poopie.

Just unbelievable.

Although Glas, the doctor bit is really easy. It really doesn't even enter your head what has gone before.

The defence lawyer.... now that's a whole different ball game. He has to deal with the reasons rather than just the consequences.

One of the reasons I could not have chosen to study Law.

Glas I'm somewhat tempted to throw the executioner onto the end of that list.

I pity the poor bugger that gets that call. The Guide To Professional Conduct tells you what to do. I'm used to internalising revulsion, I've represented some horrors (as well as decent people like PJ who have brain farts) but that would take the biscuit. The worst would be if they are the type of loons that want a trial for political purposes. I'd be looking for any excuse to sack them and take my chances with the SRA.

And Mrs P, you're too nice to be a lawyer.

One of the papers tomorrow is actually showing a close up of the corpse on their front page. The BBC correctly choosing not to preview it on their 'Tomorrow's papers' this evening.

Glas- thats what seperates us from anarchy. These men will get the medical treatment and legal representation they need, and then finally it is to be hoped the punishment they deserve. I think the most disturbing thing for me is the men just waited for 30 minutes for the Police Armed Response Unit to arrive on the scene.

They obviously aspired not just to brutality but to martyrdom. Sorry laurie, but I don't see giving them what they want as appropriate justice.

I feel very pessimistic, because I fear their empty and violent fundamentalism is just going to be met with more of the same. The media and politicians are throwing the word 'Terrorism' around a lot. It's kind of a catch all term. Were they terrorists in the sense that they were men trained and linked to an organisation of a certain ideology determine to spread terror to achieve political goals. Or "terrorists" in the sense that they are ordinary young men who have become vicious and feral and radicalised?

I fear we're very keen to cast them into the former category because society has no answers or strategy regarding the latter. A dark, disturbing affair.

Huge meteor spotted in Kildare ...

Forget the brain cart Glas, I can feel a case of chronic flatulence creeping on. I know I'm not alone either.

I wouldn't dream of saying what I really think on an open forum, but I and many others like me are fast running out of tolerance and I can see some serious reprisals coming down the road ahead.

Tolerance for what and reprisals for who PJ?

Aren't the perpetrators of this heinous act in a London hospital right now?

Tolerance of Muslim extremists/fundamentalists or just plain mentalists, Rodders. The reprisals I see coming will be against the Muslim faith as a whole though, which would be unfortunate.

The perpetrators may well be in hospital, getting good quality care, free of charge and persecution - which is only right in a free and civilised country that is fortunate to have those facilities available - but the feckers that lead them down the road of righteousness that actually regards these acts as not only acceptable, but also a form of duty, will still be very much free and working on their next batch of martyrs.

Meanwhile, the incident will be debated upon in forums such as this, social networking sites, corridors of power, pubs, bars and places of work and little will be achieved by any of that, other than to buy the nutters more time to plan the next one.

How was the meteor by the way?

what gets me is the ho hum approach to all this by some people.

We have had broadcast down here a video on our news of a black guy with bloodied hands holding a knife and a cleaver, he's spouting on about 'an eye for an eye" and apologising to women "having to see this today"...Meanwhile a woman with a bored look on her face, looks across at the body, then goes wondering along the footpath dragging her shopping trolley after a trip to the shops, and has to just about push the pesky maniacal blood spattered murderer out of her way so that she can stay on the footpath...as though she had five minutes to get home for Eastenders.

Is this common behaviour for English people or am I from another World?

No Laurie. Murderers usually run away or try to conceal their crime. This was beyond comprehension as we are used to murderers and manslaughterers operating at the level of Primal Instinct. Sometimes we need Cracker to explain to normal people what the causes are, as they don't operate on that level. This is scary because apparently lucid people have carried out an horrific act and have had the presence of mind to seek media attention for a political cause and a shoot out with the Police to further that. This has not been seen anywhere before.

Notch wrote:I feel very pessimistic, because I fear their empty and violent fundamentalism is just going to be met with more of the same. The media and politicians are throwing the word 'Terrorism' around a lot. It's kind of a catch all term. Were they terrorists in the sense that they were men trained and linked to an organisation of a certain ideology determine to spread terror to achieve political goals. Or "terrorists" in the sense that they are ordinary young men who have become vicious and feral and radicalised?

I fear we're very keen to cast them into the former category because society has no answers or strategy regarding the latter. A dark, disturbing affair.

Yup. Also, as Willy and Laurie have said, bystanders' reaction to the incident it pretty Frak up too. Surely if you'd seen someone beheaded, or saw a headless body on the floor and someone with bloody hands and a machete standing in the street, you'd run for your life?

You wouldn't run for your life lucky I'd like to think the majority of decent people would intervene. Look it's impossible to say how you or I would actually react in a situation like that and thank god we'll probably never have to but I'd like to think I would have the balls to put a stop to it. Fear for ones self can be quickly replaced by anger and there's no way I would film a bloodied murder on my iPhone to allow him to get his misplaced bullsh!t of an ideology across, than run forwards to help the man bleeding on the ground. That for me is fairly unforgivable. Maybe the full facts are yet to come out, but this attack wasn't over in an instant. They took their time killing this boy and he was left on his own and no one stood up for him. That for me is fairly unforgivable.

Moring all......6 hours till I'm flying to Belfast

I can only speak for myself, Willy. I'd choose flight over fight in that lnstance. But I never knew there was a third instinct: to stand and film it.

Morning Prop, how long will you be over there for?

Guys, I don't understand either but I would urge caution before criticising the on lookers.

You just never really know what you would do in such an absolutely surreal set of circumstances. It sounds like some folks thought the 2 perpetrators were actually assissting the victim of an accident. I suspect that by the time anyone realised that they were not assissting him, he was already beyond help.

I do agree that the filming is weird but maybe it was a defence mechanism to separate the witnesses from the events. Afterall, none of us could possibly believe that those events were actually unfolding in front of them. It must have seemed like a movie already.

It may be that the filming, though very strange, actually helped the situation and prevented further injury.

I don't really know.

Just horrible though and quite scary to think what might follow.

Just awful.

That's fair to say, MrsP. There must have been an awful surreality to the whole scene.

Speaking of what comes next, apparently there have already been a couple of attacks on mosques and the leader of the EDL is on his way down to London.

It just brought back the events of 1988.

Absolutely barbaric.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I can only speak for myself, Willy. I'd choose flight over fight in that lnstance. But I never knew there was a third instinct: to stand and film it.

Morning Prop, how long will you be over there for?

Fly back Monday!!

Lucky, what if the murderers were instructing them to film it? That adds another dimension surely.

Glas a du wrote:Lucky, what if the murderers were instructing them to film it? That adds another dimension surely.

They did instruct them, according to reports. Bystanders apparantly also thought it was a car accident as the victim was hit with a car before the assault.

The woman who tried to talk one of the suspects into dropping his knife showed incredible bravery and I'm sure the video evidence will come in useful for the prosecution I'm sure.

Man people are so quick to judge and jump to conclusions .....

That would add another dimension.

Forgive me, Rodders. From now on I won't say anything about anything. I'll leave these boards to saints like you.

Everyone is a saint behind a keyboard.

*puts Mod cap on*

Time everybody had a cup of tea.

To lighten the moment...

https://www.606v2.com/t44408-almost-friday-funnies-top-5-bombed-tries

I remember living in Munich and walking back from the pub I intervened when I saw a woman getting a beating down a side alley. Got a bad shiner for my troubles and the stupid wench was one of those "no no he's my husband I deserve it" types.

My father was livid with me when I told him; saying in his years in the police he has seen so many people who intervened ending up the victims themselves.

I have to say I'd like to think I'd still do it but the incident has made me think twice about doing so again.

I think intervening with these lads is most likely to get you injured or killed. Thats no good. The woman who spoke to one of the murderers and tried to reason with them showed a blend of bravery and composure which is quite admirable. There were a lot of people in the immediate area, it was right near by a primary school and the best kind of intervention (which also happened) would probably be to get any kids clear of the area.

Notch wrote:I think intervening with these lads is most likely to get you injured or killed. Thats no good. The woman who spoke to one of the murderers and tried to reason with them showed a blend of bravery and composure which is quite admirable. There were a lot of people in the immediate area, it was right near by a primary school and the best kind of intervention (which also happened) would probably be to get any kids clear of the area.

True - when the other guys have knives you tend not to want to go too close. I sort of hope I'd at least find something to throw at the ****s mind.

Filming is also sometimes (though not in this case) one way to stop something happening - if the perp is rational they won't want to risk being ID'd

In Ireland there has been a lot of comparisons with the Corporal Killings.

Edit: I see MrsP has mentioned it above.

Just found out that half the people on my floor (our whole campaign services division) were on a team building day in Woolwich yesterday. My team otoh were enjoying posh high tea at a hotel just off Oxford st.

I like this comment:

'The incident came on the same day that Dale Cregan was in court after the premeditated murder of two police officers. He had a similarly outlandish view of his actions, but he's rightly regarded as an isolated lunatic. Why treat these two lunatics any differently? These incidents are rare for a reason - because ordinary Muslims are not like the two idiots who carried out the attack.'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22624100

That's a good point about the filming Kiwi.

Still not quite sure I could do it though.

There does seem to be a trend towards folk thinking of youtube before anything else nowadays.

I blame Jeremy Beadle!

Terrible news, but hopefully it will just be an isolated incident. How anyone with a genuine belief in a benevolent deity could think he'd approve of such revolting actions if he existed is beyond me, but I suspect these men have some underlying mental issues that do not do well mixed with indoctrination

There's an interesting debate about whether this qualifies as terrorism. After all, the perpetrators didn't look to cause mass casualties.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:There's an interesting debate about whether this qualifies as terrorism. After all, the perpetrators didn't look to cause mass casualties.

I can't see how it isn't terrorism. It is a killing designed to raise awareness and create fear. The murder itself does not appear to be the main motive.

They wanted to prove a point, no question. But it was as far from indiscriminate as you can get.

It seems like these men set out to kill a soldier, possibly any soldier, for political ends.

And to induce terror in the country.

Not very different to what went on, and sadly still goes on to a much lesser extent, for many years here.

Maybe it would seem more like terrorism if the perpetrators didn't have London accents?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:They wanted to prove a point, no question. But it was as far from indiscriminate as you can get.

I suppose it all comes down to how you definte terrorism. But to me there is no question that this was a terrorist act.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Terrible news, but hopefully it will just be an isolated incident. How anyone with a genuine belief in a benevolent deity could think he'd approve of such revolting actions if he existed is beyond me, but I suspect these men have some underlying mental issues that do not do well mixed with indoctrination

We really have to stop stigmatizing mental health when things like this come up. I don't mean to pick on you CJ, but people throughout history have been quite capable of committing horrible atrocities with no symptoms of mental illness whatsoever.

red_stag wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:They wanted to prove a point, no question. But it was as far from indiscriminate as you can get.

I suppose it all comes down to how you definte terrorism. But to me there is no question that this was a terrorist act.

The problem with the word terrorism is there is no hard and fast definition of what it means. The boundaries between a criminal act and a terrorist act are fuzzy at best. It just means whatever the people using the word want it to mean most of the time.

Notch wrote:

red_stag wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:They wanted to prove a point, no question. But it was as far from indiscriminate as you can get.

I suppose it all comes down to how you definte terrorism. But to me there is no question that this was a terrorist act.

The problem with the word terrorism is there is no hard and fast definition of what it means. The boundaries between a criminal act and a terrorist act are fuzzy at best. It just means whatever the people using the word want it to mean most of the time.

To quote Terry Pratchett
"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"